I think making the Doctor the last of his race was clever, smart and necessary. It gave his character a sense of loss and loneliness that has worked beautifully for the past eight years. The time war itself gave the show an ongoing theme that, again, has worked beautifully.
I would say, again, that there is a massive difference between picking up and running with an already successful show and re-launching a show that's been off-air for 16 years. RTD and Moffat were in completely different situations.
Fair enough. I see where you're coming from now. I still don't agree with you. But I get what you're saying.
I agree with Mulett on the "last of the Timelords" its given the character an emotional depth that was absent from the Classic series. RTD invented it and Moffat used it to great effect in The Beast Below and The Vampires of Venice (and others I'm sure)
Of course the Holmes/Hinchcliffe era of Doctor Who saw a wholesale booting out of the familiar monsters - and it is considered one of the best periods of Doctor Who.
The Moffat era has also seen the Ood return in a small way (The Doctors Wife), although after Planet of the Ood its a bit difficult to know where a writer could take them now.
I think the Autons were badly done by in "Rose" perhaps because there was so much exposition needed, so I think they could do with a decent story - with no farting bins and plastic Mickeys though. I think the Sontarans versus Strax with all the ramifications is too good an opportunity to miss.
I don't dislike him particularly, and I actually think he's an amazing writer given the right programme (Sherlock is one of my all-time favourite shows).
I just really dislike his version of Doctor Who. It seems as though he is too pre-occupied with his own vision of Who rather than respecting what's gone before.
The Daleks are a good example. For me, RTD's update of the Daleks felt genuine, respectful and necessary. It delivered a new level of threat and cleverness that was necessary for a modern audience and made the Daleks massively popular again - the remote control Dalek was the must-have Christmas present of Christmas 2005, and RTD did that!
Moffat's update just a few years later (the disco Daleks) seemed pointless and somewhat churlish. It seemed he was trying to stamp his own design onto the Daleks rather than accept that RTD and his team had actually done a superb job that didn't need to be 'exterminated'. I felt his update had been completely pointless, driven by ego rather than necessity.
By Asylum, of course, he had to drop his own 'disco Daleks' into the background and put the gold RTD Daleks centre stage again. I doubt he would have done this if the reaction to his 'disco Daleks' hadn't been so overwhelmingly negative.
But that's my view on Moffat and monsters.
So bringing back classic monsters isn't respecting the past? You're being ridiculous now. Anyway, I imagine the only reason he hasn't brought back any of the RTD monsters back is because they just aren't that good, all the best ones from that era were made by Moffat in my opinion (excluding beast and midnight entity).
Yes! The Cybermen! They just haven't had a decent story, Nightmare In Silver wasn't a bad episode but it was quite disappointing. I feel like they need their equivalent of Asylum Of The Daleks, it was such a fantastic episode, The Cybermen need something like that.
I would love an "Asylum" version with the Cybermen; one of each version of Cybermen that have appeared.
Though, I think it would be great if they were more upfront, and played a more central threat than the Daleks did.
It also be interesting to see all those old Cybermen models together, I have have to admit that some of them would maybe have to be "fixed-up", not redesigned mind you, but made to look a bit prettier. While I do love some of the earlier versions ("Tenth Planet" and "Tomb" are my favorite Classic designs), I don't think they would hold up too well by today's standard. Not to mention they looked awful after "Earthshock".
As for story? Maybe someone out there just likes to collect frozen Cybermen, and likes to keep them in his own private museum or something.
Prison of the Cybermen? Cold Storage? The Silver Ages?
I think if done correctly, something like this could be great.
I have no problem with clever, smart, necessary change. My point is that this hasn't always been the case with Moffat's version of Who.
Some of his changes (in my opinion) have been driven by a personal need to stamp his own vision onto the show rather than accepting and working with those things that had already made the show popular and massively successful.
This feeds into his use of monsters (and hence the point of this thread) and which monsters he prioritises/has most interest in.
Every producer has done what you are complaining about. As for the unsuccessful ideas they have to try different ideas to see if they work. People before 1963 could say having a police box travelling through time and space is a silly thing to include in a TV programme. Unless Moffat can predict the future how is he supposed to know. As I said before if you can predict what works and what doesn't accurately then you would have a fortune.
I would love an "Asylum" version with the Cybermen; one of each version of Cybermen that have appeared.
Though, I think it would be great if they were more upfront, and played a more central threat than the Daleks did.
It also be interesting to see all those old Cybermen models together, I have have to admit that some of them would maybe have to be "fixed-up", not redesigned mind you, but made to look a bit prettier. While I do love some of the earlier versions ("Tenth Planet" and "Tomb" are my favorite Classic designs), I don't think they would hold up too well by today's standard. Not to mention they looked awful after "Earthshock".
As for story? Maybe someone out there just likes to collect frozen Cybermen, and likes to keep them in his own private museum or something.
Prison of the Cybermen? Cold Storage? The Silver Ages?
I think if done correctly, something like this could be great.
I have an idea for an asylum style story that could see the Cybermen actually cause there own genesis (does that make sense?) I'd call it 'A Silver Genesis' . I just want an excuse to see the cloth faced Cybermen in new who, they'd be so creepy.
Every producer has done what you are complaining about. As for the unsuccessful ideas they have to try different ideas to see if they work. People before 1963 could say having a police box travelling through time and space is a silly thing to include in a TV programme. Unless Moffat can predict the future how is he supposed to know. As I said before if you can predict what works and what doesn't accurately then you would have a fortune.
You're still missing my point. Its not about outcomes but intentions. Even if Moffat's disco Daleks had been a success, I would still feel the same way about them.
You're still missing my point. Its not about outcomes but intentions. Even if Moffat's disco Daleks had been a success, I would still feel the same way about them.
But the point is EVERY producer ever has done what you are complaining about.
If you don't get the City of Death reference than I wouldn't say you were a Doctor Who fan
First of all I have a bad memory. Just because I can't remember the dialogue of City of Death (an average story in my opinion) off by heart doesn't mean I am not a Doctor Who fan. Plus the link I saw was testing something which ended in disaster. I mean what does that prove? There are plenty of tests that ended in success.
First of all I have a bad memory. Just because I can't remember the dialogue of City of Death (an average story in my opinion) off by heart doesn't mean I am not a Doctor Who fan.
Just repeating your own comments back at you, bp2. Not nice, is it, when someone says you're not a real Who fan just because they disagree with your point of view?
Just repeating your own comments back at you, bp2.
When did I say Doctor Who fans have to memorise dialogue? I have done nothing of the sort and once again on this forum a person is making stuff up to make a point.
Doctor Who is about change if you cannot grasp that concept then I wouldn't say you were a Doctor Who fan.
Like I said, bp2, not nice when someone says you're not a real Who fan just because they disagree with your point of view. Perhaps you should think on that!
I never said it did, bp2. It was just you being rude.
No I wasn't it was a sensible comment. If I wanted to be rude I would have called you an idiot. Also even if it was rude it still doesn't make it comparable to your comment about memorising dialogue.
No I wasn't it was a sensible comment. If I wanted to be rude I would have called you an idiot. Also even if it was rude it still doesn't make it comparable to your comment about memorising dialogue.
I haven't said anything about memorising dialogue.
I was referring to the storyline of one of the show's most classic and best loved stories; the Doctor and Romana being caught in an endlessly repeated glitch in time.
I haven't said anything about memorising dialogue.
I was referring to the storyline of one of the show's most classic and best loved stories; the Doctor and Romana being caught in an endlessly repeated glitch in time.
I honestly don't remember that bit and isn't really that important. And it wasn't in the opening so be more specific. The opening was the spaceship being blown up. Also that is not an opinion held by everyone and of course there are probably lots of fans who have never seen City of Death.
I have an idea for an asylum style story that could see the Cybermen actually cause there own genesis (does that make sense?) I'd call it 'A Silver Genesis' . I just want an excuse to see the cloth faced Cybermen in new who, they'd be so creepy.
"Tenth Planet" Cybermen are one of my favorite designs, and I would love there to be a sort of comparison shot with the latest models, to see how far they have come.
I also think it would be a good chance to show the devolution of the Cybemen's goal through the years. In "The Tenth Planet", and in the BFA story "Spare Parts", they showed the Cybermen, and the people of Mondas, as people that had only wanted to survive their decaying planet, but took it a bit far. By "Nightmare in Silver", it's no longer about survival, it's about conquering the universe, to become powerful machines of war, to make more Cybermen for the point of making more Cybermen!
In another audio story, "Human Resources", Eight has a very good conversation with a Cyberman about this: About how they don't actually use their survival for anything, they only use it to survive. They survive for the purpose of surviving, so they can survive some more. They don't have any other goal than this.
Comments
Fair enough. I see where you're coming from now. I still don't agree with you. But I get what you're saying.
And that's the beauty of these forums
Of course the Holmes/Hinchcliffe era of Doctor Who saw a wholesale booting out of the familiar monsters - and it is considered one of the best periods of Doctor Who.
The Moffat era has also seen the Ood return in a small way (The Doctors Wife), although after Planet of the Ood its a bit difficult to know where a writer could take them now.
I think the Autons were badly done by in "Rose" perhaps because there was so much exposition needed, so I think they could do with a decent story - with no farting bins and plastic Mickeys though. I think the Sontarans versus Strax with all the ramifications is too good an opportunity to miss.
So bringing back classic monsters isn't respecting the past? You're being ridiculous now. Anyway, I imagine the only reason he hasn't brought back any of the RTD monsters back is because they just aren't that good, all the best ones from that era were made by Moffat in my opinion (excluding beast and midnight entity).
I would love an "Asylum" version with the Cybermen; one of each version of Cybermen that have appeared.
Though, I think it would be great if they were more upfront, and played a more central threat than the Daleks did.
It also be interesting to see all those old Cybermen models together, I have have to admit that some of them would maybe have to be "fixed-up", not redesigned mind you, but made to look a bit prettier. While I do love some of the earlier versions ("Tenth Planet" and "Tomb" are my favorite Classic designs), I don't think they would hold up too well by today's standard. Not to mention they looked awful after "Earthshock".
As for story? Maybe someone out there just likes to collect frozen Cybermen, and likes to keep them in his own private museum or something.
Prison of the Cybermen? Cold Storage? The Silver Ages?
I think if done correctly, something like this could be great.
Every producer has done what you are complaining about. As for the unsuccessful ideas they have to try different ideas to see if they work. People before 1963 could say having a police box travelling through time and space is a silly thing to include in a TV programme. Unless Moffat can predict the future how is he supposed to know. As I said before if you can predict what works and what doesn't accurately then you would have a fortune.
I have an idea for an asylum style story that could see the Cybermen actually cause there own genesis (does that make sense?) I'd call it 'A Silver Genesis' . I just want an excuse to see the cloth faced Cybermen in new who, they'd be so creepy.
You're still missing my point. Its not about outcomes but intentions. Even if Moffat's disco Daleks had been a success, I would still feel the same way about them.
But the point is EVERY producer ever has done what you are complaining about.
Blimey, that's weird. Is this the opening episode of City of Death?
No, it's basically any Pertwee serial after the introduction of the Master.
Why is there a person complaining about a producer doing their job properly? From what I remember it was a spaceship being blown up.
If you don't get the City of Death reference than I wouldn't say you were a Doctor Who fan
First of all I have a bad memory. Just because I can't remember the dialogue of City of Death (an average story in my opinion) off by heart doesn't mean I am not a Doctor Who fan. Plus the link I saw was testing something which ended in disaster. I mean what does that prove? There are plenty of tests that ended in success.
Yes, it did get a little repetitive . .
Just repeating your own comments back at you, bp2. Not nice, is it, when someone says you're not a real Who fan just because they disagree with your point of view?
When did I say Doctor Who fans have to memorise dialogue? I have done nothing of the sort and once again on this forum a person is making stuff up to make a point.
Like I said, bp2, not nice when someone says you're not a real Who fan just because they disagree with your point of view. Perhaps you should think on that!
Where does it say in that comment anything about memorising dialogue?
I never said it did, bp2. It was just you being rude.
No I wasn't it was a sensible comment. If I wanted to be rude I would have called you an idiot. Also even if it was rude it still doesn't make it comparable to your comment about memorising dialogue.
I haven't said anything about memorising dialogue.
I was referring to the storyline of one of the show's most classic and best loved stories; the Doctor and Romana being caught in an endlessly repeated glitch in time.
I honestly don't remember that bit and isn't really that important. And it wasn't in the opening so be more specific. The opening was the spaceship being blown up. Also that is not an opinion held by everyone and of course there are probably lots of fans who have never seen City of Death.
"Tenth Planet" Cybermen are one of my favorite designs, and I would love there to be a sort of comparison shot with the latest models, to see how far they have come.
I also think it would be a good chance to show the devolution of the Cybemen's goal through the years. In "The Tenth Planet", and in the BFA story "Spare Parts", they showed the Cybermen, and the people of Mondas, as people that had only wanted to survive their decaying planet, but took it a bit far. By "Nightmare in Silver", it's no longer about survival, it's about conquering the universe, to become powerful machines of war, to make more Cybermen for the point of making more Cybermen!
In another audio story, "Human Resources", Eight has a very good conversation with a Cyberman about this: About how they don't actually use their survival for anything, they only use it to survive. They survive for the purpose of surviving, so they can survive some more. They don't have any other goal than this.
But are they real fans, bp2? Its a bit like someone walking around Essex in a Man United shirt who's never once been to a match. Or Manchester.