At 32, I play in the 5-8 model now. Hearing someone shout because a pass went wayward for an indoor game with absolutely no consequence annoys me. Shut up and let me try to nutmeg someone with a backheel.
Once, when Brian Clough chastised Duncan McKenzie for trying something out of the ordinary, the striker picked up the ball, turned to Cloughy and said, 'So what do you expect for £40 a week - f@@#~~g Pele?!'
Once, when Brian Clough chastised Duncan McKenzie for trying something out of the ordinary, the striker picked up the ball, turned to Cloughy and said, 'So what do you expect for £40 a week - f@@#~~g Pele?!'
Have read TMs posts carefully now - and as C07 says so much of what he says is really impressive. About the reasons for sport seen for the povs of parents compared to kids, the different focuses for different ages, different attitudes when in non competitive set ups, the negative effect of bad coaching, the right time and place to analyse a performance, ...etc.
We had a 'Kevin' in our area in the early 90s - a man called Stan who used to supervise matches on a Sunday afternoon for young players - often under 8s - my son used to go when he was that age - and he was also a manager for a local organised team and in time he'd feed these players into the system (if they were good enough) but he encouraged all and was a top guy. I've not seen him around for years now and often wonder what became of him as he was not that old.
Talking of my son tho I say it myself he is an outstanding player - he is 28 now - but will not play for a team despite having had many offers over the years saying 'If I played for a team the manager would tell me how to play and I do not want that as I prefer to enjoy it and just play my way for fun with my mates on the astroturf on a Tuesday evening and go for a drink afterwards.' Prestatyn Town who I know are not PL level (but they did win a EL tie this season and won the Welsh Cup last season) train immediately following and 3 times have asked him to train with them - and he has always refused. Very frustrating for me as if I was any good at football (which I am not) I'd want to see high I could play at - but I have given up asking him to reconsider now - it'll never happen. To give an illustration his keepy up record is over 7000, the other week he went in the garden to try to improve it and on his first try got over 3000 - and he did try a couple more times but cos it took so much time gave up - but that is Karl, he is all skill based - trying things all the time - nutmegs ...etc and maybe managers would see him as a liability as the way he played he may cost goals. I always ask him after Tuesdays how it went and he says he is almost always motm scoring 6 or whatever and he describes to me the awesome volleyed goal he scored or the run where he beat 6 before slotting it in ...etc. Watching TV football with him is interesting as he will criticise players often saying things like that was an easy pass to do if they give the ball away or fail to put a player in - and he is always pro rounding the keeper when you a through one on one (as that is what he does). Le Tiss and Jay Jay Okacha are his fav players as they played the way he likes - and cos of JJO he is a BWFC fan even now.
Sorry I am sounding like a boring Dad now aren't I - but to me it is a real shame that he has not developed his ability to the level his talent deserves and I know there will be countless others like him round the country.
Quotas could be a good idea if the players being brought through improve what we currently have. It's no good adding 40-50 players who are average, it just gives you more of the same to pick from. Ideally, you'd want 20 more players who are better all round in terms of technique, ability, attitude etc to enhance the selection pool.
I dont know the answer to the problems that Dyke has legitimately highlighted but I am damn sure the coincidence of the increase in the number of overseas players playing at our top Clubs and the deterioration in the quality of the International team has some credence.
The same applies in Scotland - when the SPL stated to draft in overseas players has harmed the Scottish International team immeasurably. There is no doubt the signing of our powerfully athletic African player for example is better value than the over priced domestic player market. Its worth the gamble. Yes I agree the coaching at schoolboy level needs looking at but one of the country's top academies at Middlesbrough for example is not producing the players it was 6-8 years ago.
Top talented young players at Chelsea don't seem to get a look in the first team. Players like Ruben Cheek, Alex Kiwomya. Josh Mceachran.
A quick google search suggests 69% of the premier league was English the last time England failed to qualify for the World Cup in 1994, I'd hazard a guess the majority of the league was English when they failed to qualify for consecutive tournaments in the 1970s also.
Not that I particularly care though, but an interesting point. Blaming foreign players for England's failings is quite shameful in my opinion.
Have read TMs posts carefully now - and as C07 says so much of what he says is really impressive. About the reasons for sport seen for the povs of parents compared to kids, the different focuses for different ages, different attitudes when in non competitive set ups, the negative effect of bad coaching, the right time and place to analyse a performance, ...etc.
We had a 'Kevin' in our area in the early 90s - a man called Stan who used to supervise matches on a Sunday afternoon for young players - often under 8s - my son used to go when he was that age - and he was also a manager for a local organised team and in time he'd feed these players into the system (if they were good enough) but he encouraged all and was a top guy. I've not seen him around for years now and often wonder what became of him as he was not that old.
Talking of my son tho I say it myself he is an outstanding player - he is 28 now - but will not play for a team despite having had many offers over the years saying 'If I played for a team the manager would tell me how to play and I do not want that as I prefer to enjoy it and just play my way for fun with my mates on the astroturf on a Tuesday evening and go for a drink afterwards.' Prestatyn Town who I know are not PL level (but they did win a EL tie this season and won the Welsh Cup last season) train immediately following and 3 times have asked him to train with them - and he has always refused. Very frustrating for me as if I was any good at football (which I am not) I'd want to see high I could play at - but I have given up asking him to reconsider now - it'll never happen. To give an illustration his keepy up record is over 7000, the other week he went in the garden to try to improve it and on his first try got over 3000 - and he did try a couple more times but cos it took so much time gave up - but that is Karl, he is all skill based - trying things all the time - nutmegs ...etc and maybe managers would see him as a liability as the way he played he may cost goals. I always ask him after Tuesdays how it went and he says he is almost always motm scoring 6 or whatever and he describes to me the awesome volleyed goal he scored or the run where he beat 6 before slotting it in ...etc. Watching TV football with him is interesting as he will criticise players often saying things like that was an easy pass to do if they give the ball away or fail to put a player in - and he is always pro rounding the keeper when you a through one on one (as that is what he does). Le Tiss and Jay Jay Okacha are his fav players as they played the way he likes - and cos of JJO he is a BWFC fan even now.
Sorry I am sounding like a boring Dad now aren't I - but to me it is a real shame that he has not developed his ability to the level his talent deserves and I know there will be countless others like him round the country.
Thank you, Alan.
I actually wrote an 80,000 word 'How to' book on building and running junior tennis programmes (4 sections, 17 chapters) with helkp from 2 American writer friends and it's on my spare hard drive. No-one was interested in it at the LTA (they want to have their stuff, not other people).
I even gota literary agent at one point but despite what you might think would be a wide appeal for such material, the publishing world is in a bad state and actually, such works are very niche and not JK Rowling mass market, even if written at their best.
But the digital age does provide some opportunities for self publishing and self promotion, so, a result of the post Olympic legacy issues and all this Dyke related discussion, I'm going top get the book content out again and start feeding it out there through my website (which you've see - also in my profile details).
In fact, this afternoon, I've started a new post titled, 'Maybe Greg Dyke should re-introduce 'jumpers for goalposts? - The importance of 'free play' within grassroots sport development .
It's really a regurgitation of all the posts above but I'll post a link when it's done.
With regard to your son, Alan, a phrase that I found myself using more and more as my time as a coach elapsed was, 'Motivation is everything', meaning that whatever level a kid / young person / adult feels comfortable playing at is the level they'll do best at.
This level might not be the one which caring dads, interested coaches and supportive friends might believe that the person could play at. But ultimately, these other views are not what is important.
It's your son's life; it's his journey; it's his football.
If a player doesn't have the internally driven motivation, no amount of official coaching or even exhortation from near and dear will either get that player to perform at their best nor will it give the player any satisfaction.
From my time in tennis, becoming aware of the torture which some very top players experienced to realise not just their dreams but in Andre Agassi and John McEnroe's case, their parents, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
If your son wants to play his football on Tuesday nights because that's where he will get maximum enjoyment, then good for him.
You are quite right of course regarding my son - but it is hard for me to accept as I just wanted him to go as far in the game as he could have which he clearly hasn't but as you say him enjoying his sport is key and he certainly likes his Tuesday night games.
I am not patronising you (honestly!!) but tennis is among my fav sports - in fact in many ways I like watching it more than football eg I was glued to Wawrinka V Djokovic last night and the Del Potro V Djokovic Wimbledon semi was imo the best sporting entertainment of the year so it is interesting to hear about it from a coaching pov. As a sport which is not really played much in school it is one where to find and nurture players must be hard. It sounds like you have a good approach and have given many kids some great tennis experiences - well done. Like football it is a sport where many in the country want us to be successful and the LTA over the years have come up with various initiatives to do this and yet most of them come up short - but at least now we have had a British Grand Slam champ for the first time for 76 years. How much this was due to good work by the LTA and how much Andy Murrays hard work I have no idea, no doubt you have views and insights on this
I like reading about sport and have read Agassi's autobiography and his relationship with his father is interesting to say the least - I hope that I was not as bad as that in Karl's case!! (I have read McEnroe's too but remember that less well)
As a teacher you know one day of the year which always bugged me was sports day - many would just not come to school and others would so called run races but deliberately lose or treat it as a laugh waving to their friends as they jogged round the track. The result of all this was some kids having to do far more than their fair share of events which to me went all against team spirit and cooperation - I hated that and wanted to give the kids who bunked off a piece of my mind but tbh to have done so would have been ill advised. As a competitive male (altho I am sure it is just as true for females - see Paula Radcliffe) I just can't get my head round that - if you are in something you try your best - surely!! - but not everyone sees it that way it seems and it takes all sorts I suppose. People are not all sport freaks like myself.
You are quite right of course regarding my son - but it is hard for me to accept as I just wanted him to go as far in the game as he could have which he clearly hasn't but as you say him enjoying his sport is key and he certainly likes his Tuesday night games.
I am not patronising you (honestly!!) but tennis is among my fav sports - in fact in many ways I like watching it more than football eg I was glued to Wawrinka V Djokovic last night and the Del Potro V Djokovic Wimbledon semi was imo the best sporting entertainment of the year so it is interesting to hear about it from a coaching pov. As a sport which is not really played much in school it is one where to find and nurture players must be hard. It sounds like you have a good approach and have given many kids some great tennis experiences - well done. Like football it is a sport where many in the country want us to be successful and the LTA over the years have come up with various initiatives to do this and yet most of them come up short - but at least now we have had a British Grand Slam champ for the first time for 76 years. How much this was due to good work by the LTA and how much Andy Murrays hard work I have no idea, no doubt you have views and insights on this
I like reading about sport and have read Agassi's autobiography and his relationship with his father is interesting to say the least - I hope that I was not as bad as that in Karl's case!! (I have read McEnroe's too but remember that less well)
As a teacher you know one day of the year which always bugged me was sports day - many would just not come to school and others would so called run races but deliberately lose or treat it as a laugh waving to their friends as they jogged round the track. The result of all this was some kids having to do far more than their fair share of events which to me went all against team spirit and cooperation - I hated that and wanted to give the kids who bunked off a piece of my mind but tbh to have done so would have been ill advised. As a competitive male (altho I am sure it is just as true for females - see Paula Radcliffe) I just can't get my head round that - if you are in something you try your best - surely!! - but not everyone sees it that way it seems and it takes all sorts I suppose. People are not all sport freaks like myself.
Interesting stuff again alan. I have to say i can see where your son is coming from. Talent is only one part, application is just as important. I can only speak for myself but i was similar academically. I have never studied a day in my life yet i have a degree and post-grad. Had i had the application maybe i could have done something impressive but its just not there. I cant pretend it is. I dont even know how to study. Its frustrating even for me but there is nothing i can do about it. In Uni i would write essays while watching the football on tv while my housemates would have to shut themselves away and concentrate.
I think sport comes equally easy to some but the people at the top of their field have the combination of a gift and the desire to use it. I remember watching an interview with George Best where he said he could just "do" the stuff he did and he couldnt explain how it worked. At the same time though he used to love training and would work and work and work on his game. Beckham was the same. Its just a coming together of skill and work-rate i think.
Interesting stuff again alan. I have to say i can see where your son is coming from. Talent is only one part, application is just as important. I can only speak for myself but i was similar academically. I have never studied a day in my life yet i have a degree and post-grad. Had i had the application maybe i could have done something impressive but its just not there. I cant pretend it is. I dont even know how to study. Its frustrating even for me but there is nothing i can do about it. In Uni i would write essays while watching the football on tv while my housemates would have to shut themselves away and concentrate.
I think sport comes equally easy to some but the people at the top of their field have the combination of a gift and the desire to use it. I remember watching an interview with George Best where he said he could just "do" the stuff he did and he couldnt explain how it worked. At the same time though he used to love training and would work and work and work on his game. Beckham was the same. Its just a coming together of skill and work-rate i think.
Spot on with that last line, Cantona.
People talk all the time about 'player X who has the talent' or 'so much talent'.
But what does that actually mean?
What does 'having the talent' mean?
In coaching jargon / process, any given performance is defined as a combination of the outputs of what are called the 4 performance factors; technical, tactical, physical and mental.
No, one factor is more important than any other, especially at the top / pro level in any sport.
But people use that phrase, 'he has the talent' as if it is some conceptual construct that just hasn't given fruit yet.
It's as if someone 'could' have been better than they are.
To me, with my (ex) coaches mentality, such possible performance does not exist.
The only thing I see is what and where any player is at right now with the coaching task defined as 'how do we help make the player improve from here?'
On the tennis thread, I'm commenting all the time when people say, player X could have been so much better. I ask the question, 'how do you know?'.
In fact, how does anyone know this?
Actually, making a view on where a player will reach is a bit like soothsaying; it's nonsense because it's a future state which is entirely speculative.
Of course, on internet forums, people love to do this and that's fine; it's how people fuel their interest in a given sport.
Talent is actually a concept which some people might define as skill level that they have witnessed once or twice, like a player striking a pass, shot, or making a tackle or header.
But to say, 'he has so much talent', well that depends, in the future on what performance / result he achieves.
In this respect, I think we can only talk about talent as a feature of hindsight; a summary / conclusion about a player (team) based on looking back at what they did. This is actually the only proof of talent.
Just to finish, it is many discussions I have had with tennis writer Joel Drucker, who I have become friends with over the last 20 years, that has opened my mind to this issue as he would always curse at yet another US or UK 'Talent Identification' initiative in tennis where the kids that look like little players are picked out.
Joel's approach and indeed one which became mine was that the whole junior coaching process is NOT about talent identification but about talent development.
This way, you move away from the limited elite selections which often involve selecting out kids that may have matured early but may not develop into anything special but you continue to allow ALL kids to mature and have a chance to rise up the performance tiers.
Also, you try to adopt a fluid approach to the grouping or kids and any team selections at the various age groups, allowing kids who you previously didn't see performing at a certain level the chance to demonstrate improvement and to come back into any 'selection reckoning', as opposed to the 'once they've been discarded, then that's it' mentality of most selection processes in junior sports.
I once asked a County Performance Officer for Tennis Surrey why he didn't identify the top 500 kids in his area of responsibilty as opposed to just a few names (maybe 35-50 of them) which were being fast tracked?
He hadn't even asked that question which effectively meant that he didn't have any interest in those who might develop at different rates as I've explained above.
In summary, there's nothing necessarily wrong with an elitist approach in junior sports as long as you pick the right kids and too often, certainly in tennis, football and cricket, once kids have been picked that's it and it's ok for them but if you miss the cut, you've had the door effectively shut in your face for good.
I reckon, as explained above that things should be much more flexible / fluid. But this is much harder work and most people / coaches don't want that, I'm afraid.
Final point is that in the French system of Talent ID in tennis, the most significant characteristic that they look for in kids is.......their attitude, not their level of technical skill. Interesting, I think.
I actually wrote an 80,000 word 'How to' book on building and running junior tennis programmes (4 sections, 17 chapters) with helkp from 2 American writer friends and it's on my spare hard drive. No-one was interested in it at the LTA (they want to have their stuff, not other people).
I even gota literary agent at one point but despite what you might think would be a wide appeal for such material, the publishing world is in a bad state and actually, such works are very niche and not JK Rowling mass market, even if written at their best.
But the digital age does provide some opportunities for self publishing and self promotion, so, a result of the post Olympic legacy issues and all this Dyke related discussion, I'm going top get the book content out again and start feeding it out there through my website (which you've see - also in my profile details).
In fact, this afternoon, I've started a new post titled, 'Maybe Greg Dyke should re-introduce 'jumpers for goalposts? - The importance of 'free play' within grassroots sport development .
It's really a regurgitation of all the posts above but I'll post a link when it's done.
With regard to your son, Alan, a phrase that I found myself using more and more as my time as a coach elapsed was, 'Motivation is everything', meaning that whatever level a kid / young person / adult feels comfortable playing at is the level they'll do best at.
This level might not be the one which caring dads, interested coaches and supportive friends might believe that the person could play at. But ultimately, these other views are not what is important.
It's your son's life; it's his journey; it's his football.
If a player doesn't have the internally driven motivation, no amount of official coaching or even exhortation from near and dear will either get that player to perform at their best nor will it give the player any satisfaction.
From my time in tennis, becoming aware of the torture which some very top players experienced to realise not just their dreams but in Andre Agassi and John McEnroe's case, their parents, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
If your son wants to play his football on Tuesday nights because that's where he will get maximum enjoyment, then good for him.
Best wishes
T'Man
Have you tried releasing it as an e-book?
I think that it sounds like something that should be of interest to people running the sport, as you have most certainly proven that you know your stuff.
You are quite right of course regarding my son - but it is hard for me to accept as I just wanted him to go as far in the game as he could have which he clearly hasn't but as you say him enjoying his sport is key and he certainly likes his Tuesday night games.
I am not patronising you (honestly!!) but tennis is among my fav sports - in fact in many ways I like watching it more than football eg I was glued to Wawrinka V Djokovic last night and the Del Potro V Djokovic Wimbledon semi was imo the best sporting entertainment of the year so it is interesting to hear about it from a coaching pov. As a sport which is not really played much in school it is one where to find and nurture players must be hard. It sounds like you have a good approach and have given many kids some great tennis experiences - well done. Like football it is a sport where many in the country want us to be successful and the LTA over the years have come up with various initiatives to do this and yet most of them come up short - but at least now we have had a British Grand Slam champ for the first time for 76 years. How much this was due to good work by the LTA and how much Andy Murrays hard work I have no idea, no doubt you have views and insights on this
I like reading about sport and have read Agassi's autobiography and his relationship with his father is interesting to say the least - I hope that I was not as bad as that in Karl's case!! (I have read McEnroe's too but remember that less well)
As a teacher you know one day of the year which always bugged me was sports day - many would just not come to school and others would so called run races but deliberately lose or treat it as a laugh waving to their friends as they jogged round the track. The result of all this was some kids having to do far more than their fair share of events which to me went all against team spirit and cooperation - I hated that and wanted to give the kids who bunked off a piece of my mind but tbh to have done so would have been ill advised. As a competitive male (altho I am sure it is just as true for females - see Paula Radcliffe) I just can't get my head round that - if you are in something you try your best - surely!! - but not everyone sees it that way it seems and it takes all sorts I suppose. People are not all sport freaks like myself.
I understand your feelings, Alan.
But I suppose after all that stuff I've just written in the post above, I'd say that your son decided what level he was going to get to and that's the level he reached, not a possible level which, albeit with the best intentions, you and maybe others perceived that he might reach.
If he'd gone higher (Prestatyn Town etc), of course, it would have made you proud / happy but would it have made him happy?
I actually think he sounds like he has been quite courageous in that he has decided his own destiny and if we nurtured this attitude more in our kids by communicating more with them, then this would ultimately create certainly happier players and maybe better performing ones, in that they'd be playing at levels that they were happy with as opposed to be striving for goals which often adults had defined for them.
But I do accept that for parents (most of which were fantastic in my 14 years as tennis coach, by the way), striking this balance of support and helping their kids to identify pathways to higher levels is a complex one and without patronising you in the slightest, I've no doubt, you did the best you could with your so in this area. There are, after all, only guidelines but definately no rules.
And coaches need to do far more to identify for kids and parents the pathways up the ladder in all sports and what work is required to try and get there.
In my book, somewhere, I've written about the concept of optimum parental involvement as under involvement and the kid can often feel ignored and / or find that their development drifts while over involvement can led to crushing pressure which may lead to emotional or physical burn out, or both.
Smart sporting parents try to strike that middle ground.
I always wanted the parents involved but got frustrated by some who never showed any interest in what their kids were doing other than sending a cheque for the next set of sessions or conversely, I got completely stressed out and often angry when a few obsessive and over involved parents pushed their kids over acceptable limits, with one, I recall, bringing a technical text book onto court one time to show us how a volley should look!!!
I think that it sounds like something that should be of interest to people running the sport, as you have most certainly proven that you know your stuff.
Good luck with it though.
Indeed and thanks, Batdude.
What I want to try and do and these thoughts are forming even as I write, is to use my website (which, if you've seen it, is a blog website not just a straight e-commerce product lead one) to write some posts which begin to translate what I wrote originally which was 100% for the tennis market, into a more generic youth sports positioning (80% of the book could be tailored quite easily for sports other than tennis because the same principles and many of the practices apply).
What this might lead to would be a re-write of the book into the generic youth sports angle and then I might test the sale of the book, chapter by chapter in my Ebay Shop, in order to test the technicalities of the selling process..
This might then lead to selling the book as a whole as an e-book with the option for people to buy the whole book, sections or individual chapters depending on their particular interest / need.
What I want to try and do and these thoughts are forming even as I write, is to use my website (which, if you've seen it, is a blog website not just a straight e-commerce product lead one) to write some posts which begin to translate what I wrote originally which was 100% for the tennis market, into a more generic youth sports positioning (80% of the book could be tailored quite easily for sports other than tennis because the same principles and many of the practices apply).
What this might lead to would be a re-write of the book into the generic youth sports angle and then I might test the sale of the book, chapter by chapter in my Ebay Shop, in order to test the technicalities of the selling process..
This might then lead to selling the book as a whole as an e-book with the option for people to buy the whole book, sections or individual chapters depending on their particular interest / need.
I have in the past thought of becoming a youth coach, but been put off by my past experiences of other people, but if anyone can re-discover, or re-light that desire in me to do so, or to try once again, it could be you sir, as you have piqued my interest levels again, so many tanks for that.
I would be interested in reading your thoughts more in-depth, as you put them across very well, and they are well thought out as well.
Personally, I wish you nothing but success with this, your eBay store, and your website, as if anyone deserves success, then it is someone who has the knowledge that you most certainly have consistently displayed all over these boards.
I have in the past thought of becoming a youth coach, but been put off by my past experiences of other people, but if anyone can re-discover, or re-light that desire in me to do so, or to try once again, it could be you sir, as you have piqued my interest levels again, so many tanks for that.
I would be interested in reading your thoughts more in-depth, as you put them across very well, and they are well thought out as well.
Personally, I wish you nothing but success with this, your eBay store, and your website, as if anyone deserves success, then it is someone who has the knowledge that you most certainly have consistently displayed all over these boards.
That's really kind of you Batdude. Thank you.:)
What I really find rewarding is that you may have had your interest in getting involved in youth coaching rekindled.
That's great. Any questions you may have, let me know.
I have referenced a few of the ideas / concepts I used on a daily basis in that website article in the link above.
What I really find rewarding is that you may have had your interest in getting involved in youth coaching rekindled.
That's great. Any questions you may have, let me know.
I have referenced a few of the ideas / concepts I used on a daily basis in that website article in the link above.
I am not totally a bad guy, I can recognise quality when I see it, and it is just such a crying shame that someone like yourself has been turned away from helping to make our younger generation better.
If I had anything to do with things, (which alas I don't), you would have got that Technical Role at The F.A., or been in charge of the youth development in tennis!
As I say for a long while, I have harboured ambitions of coaching, especially at the youth levels, but I just didn't like what I remember from how I was coached personally.
But reading what you have put (albeit only in the brief snippets that I have so far, and I will honestly read more later) up here, has kind of rekindled that within me.
To know that there are actually people out there that have put a lot of thought into this area (as you certainly have done), is great to see, and for that you do deserve to be congratulated on that, as it by no means is an easy topic to try and get right (if it ever is possible to solve in the first place).
So, many thanks and please don't give up on your book, or your website, as there are people out there, that do find these sort of things really interesting (even if your previous publishers tried to tell you otherwise sadly).
Depressing feedback just now on Talksport from former Gunner Perry Groves after watching Under 9's football last weekend - coaches and parents bombarding the kids with instructions creating a pressurised environment strangling free expression and disabling the kids' ability to make decisions for themselves.
Sounds like exactly the reverse of what I am talking about in the website post below.
To Coaches and Parents, I'd say again; LEAVE THEM ALONE. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if they make loads of mistakes. This is how they develop. This is how they learn. They need to have fun and be allowed to play.
If we stop kids from doing this, we are not only strangling their development but slowly but surely we will stamp out the flame of interest which started them playing in the first place.
In junior tennis, despite all its' faults, you aren't allowed to coach players when matches are in progress. Maybe junior football should apply the same rule?
If its illegal to impose a limit on foreign players in the Premier league then what exactly is the point of each country having their own leagues? Might as well merge every European League and create one Euro Super League and have done with it as some have proposed. I thought the point of each European country having their own league structure was to safeguard the production of homegrown talent. If it isn't, then what exactly is it for?
Comments
Once, when Brian Clough chastised Duncan McKenzie for trying something out of the ordinary, the striker picked up the ball, turned to Cloughy and said, 'So what do you expect for £40 a week - f@@#~~g Pele?!'
We had a 'Kevin' in our area in the early 90s - a man called Stan who used to supervise matches on a Sunday afternoon for young players - often under 8s - my son used to go when he was that age - and he was also a manager for a local organised team and in time he'd feed these players into the system (if they were good enough) but he encouraged all and was a top guy. I've not seen him around for years now and often wonder what became of him as he was not that old.
Talking of my son tho I say it myself he is an outstanding player - he is 28 now - but will not play for a team despite having had many offers over the years saying 'If I played for a team the manager would tell me how to play and I do not want that as I prefer to enjoy it and just play my way for fun with my mates on the astroturf on a Tuesday evening and go for a drink afterwards.' Prestatyn Town who I know are not PL level (but they did win a EL tie this season and won the Welsh Cup last season) train immediately following and 3 times have asked him to train with them - and he has always refused. Very frustrating for me as if I was any good at football (which I am not) I'd want to see high I could play at - but I have given up asking him to reconsider now - it'll never happen. To give an illustration his keepy up record is over 7000, the other week he went in the garden to try to improve it and on his first try got over 3000 - and he did try a couple more times but cos it took so much time gave up - but that is Karl, he is all skill based - trying things all the time - nutmegs ...etc and maybe managers would see him as a liability as the way he played he may cost goals. I always ask him after Tuesdays how it went and he says he is almost always motm scoring 6 or whatever and he describes to me the awesome volleyed goal he scored or the run where he beat 6 before slotting it in ...etc. Watching TV football with him is interesting as he will criticise players often saying things like that was an easy pass to do if they give the ball away or fail to put a player in - and he is always pro rounding the keeper when you a through one on one (as that is what he does). Le Tiss and Jay Jay Okacha are his fav players as they played the way he likes - and cos of JJO he is a BWFC fan even now.
Sorry I am sounding like a boring Dad now aren't I - but to me it is a real shame that he has not developed his ability to the level his talent deserves and I know there will be countless others like him round the country.
The same applies in Scotland - when the SPL stated to draft in overseas players has harmed the Scottish International team immeasurably. There is no doubt the signing of our powerfully athletic African player for example is better value than the over priced domestic player market. Its worth the gamble. Yes I agree the coaching at schoolboy level needs looking at but one of the country's top academies at Middlesbrough for example is not producing the players it was 6-8 years ago.
Top talented young players at Chelsea don't seem to get a look in the first team. Players like Ruben Cheek, Alex Kiwomya. Josh Mceachran.
Not that I particularly care though, but an interesting point. Blaming foreign players for England's failings is quite shameful in my opinion.
Thank you, Alan.
I actually wrote an 80,000 word 'How to' book on building and running junior tennis programmes (4 sections, 17 chapters) with helkp from 2 American writer friends and it's on my spare hard drive. No-one was interested in it at the LTA (they want to have their stuff, not other people).
I even gota literary agent at one point but despite what you might think would be a wide appeal for such material, the publishing world is in a bad state and actually, such works are very niche and not JK Rowling mass market, even if written at their best.
But the digital age does provide some opportunities for self publishing and self promotion, so, a result of the post Olympic legacy issues and all this Dyke related discussion, I'm going top get the book content out again and start feeding it out there through my website (which you've see - also in my profile details).
In fact, this afternoon, I've started a new post titled, 'Maybe Greg Dyke should re-introduce 'jumpers for goalposts? - The importance of 'free play' within grassroots sport development .
It's really a regurgitation of all the posts above but I'll post a link when it's done.
With regard to your son, Alan, a phrase that I found myself using more and more as my time as a coach elapsed was, 'Motivation is everything', meaning that whatever level a kid / young person / adult feels comfortable playing at is the level they'll do best at.
This level might not be the one which caring dads, interested coaches and supportive friends might believe that the person could play at. But ultimately, these other views are not what is important.
It's your son's life; it's his journey; it's his football.
If a player doesn't have the internally driven motivation, no amount of official coaching or even exhortation from near and dear will either get that player to perform at their best nor will it give the player any satisfaction.
From my time in tennis, becoming aware of the torture which some very top players experienced to realise not just their dreams but in Andre Agassi and John McEnroe's case, their parents, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
If your son wants to play his football on Tuesday nights because that's where he will get maximum enjoyment, then good for him.
Best wishes
T'Man
I am not patronising you (honestly!!) but tennis is among my fav sports - in fact in many ways I like watching it more than football eg I was glued to Wawrinka V Djokovic last night and the Del Potro V Djokovic Wimbledon semi was imo the best sporting entertainment of the year so it is interesting to hear about it from a coaching pov. As a sport which is not really played much in school it is one where to find and nurture players must be hard. It sounds like you have a good approach and have given many kids some great tennis experiences - well done. Like football it is a sport where many in the country want us to be successful and the LTA over the years have come up with various initiatives to do this and yet most of them come up short - but at least now we have had a British Grand Slam champ for the first time for 76 years. How much this was due to good work by the LTA and how much Andy Murrays hard work I have no idea, no doubt you have views and insights on this
I like reading about sport and have read Agassi's autobiography and his relationship with his father is interesting to say the least - I hope that I was not as bad as that in Karl's case!! (I have read McEnroe's too but remember that less well)
As a teacher you know one day of the year which always bugged me was sports day - many would just not come to school and others would so called run races but deliberately lose or treat it as a laugh waving to their friends as they jogged round the track. The result of all this was some kids having to do far more than their fair share of events which to me went all against team spirit and cooperation - I hated that and wanted to give the kids who bunked off a piece of my mind but tbh to have done so would have been ill advised. As a competitive male (altho I am sure it is just as true for females - see Paula Radcliffe) I just can't get my head round that - if you are in something you try your best - surely!! - but not everyone sees it that way it seems and it takes all sorts I suppose. People are not all sport freaks like myself.
Interesting stuff again alan. I have to say i can see where your son is coming from. Talent is only one part, application is just as important. I can only speak for myself but i was similar academically. I have never studied a day in my life yet i have a degree and post-grad. Had i had the application maybe i could have done something impressive but its just not there. I cant pretend it is. I dont even know how to study. Its frustrating even for me but there is nothing i can do about it. In Uni i would write essays while watching the football on tv while my housemates would have to shut themselves away and concentrate.
I think sport comes equally easy to some but the people at the top of their field have the combination of a gift and the desire to use it. I remember watching an interview with George Best where he said he could just "do" the stuff he did and he couldnt explain how it worked. At the same time though he used to love training and would work and work and work on his game. Beckham was the same. Its just a coming together of skill and work-rate i think.
Spot on with that last line, Cantona.
People talk all the time about 'player X who has the talent' or 'so much talent'.
But what does that actually mean?
What does 'having the talent' mean?
In coaching jargon / process, any given performance is defined as a combination of the outputs of what are called the 4 performance factors; technical, tactical, physical and mental.
No, one factor is more important than any other, especially at the top / pro level in any sport.
But people use that phrase, 'he has the talent' as if it is some conceptual construct that just hasn't given fruit yet.
It's as if someone 'could' have been better than they are.
To me, with my (ex) coaches mentality, such possible performance does not exist.
The only thing I see is what and where any player is at right now with the coaching task defined as 'how do we help make the player improve from here?'
On the tennis thread, I'm commenting all the time when people say, player X could have been so much better. I ask the question, 'how do you know?'.
In fact, how does anyone know this?
Actually, making a view on where a player will reach is a bit like soothsaying; it's nonsense because it's a future state which is entirely speculative.
Of course, on internet forums, people love to do this and that's fine; it's how people fuel their interest in a given sport.
Talent is actually a concept which some people might define as skill level that they have witnessed once or twice, like a player striking a pass, shot, or making a tackle or header.
But to say, 'he has so much talent', well that depends, in the future on what performance / result he achieves.
In this respect, I think we can only talk about talent as a feature of hindsight; a summary / conclusion about a player (team) based on looking back at what they did. This is actually the only proof of talent.
Just to finish, it is many discussions I have had with tennis writer Joel Drucker, who I have become friends with over the last 20 years, that has opened my mind to this issue as he would always curse at yet another US or UK 'Talent Identification' initiative in tennis where the kids that look like little players are picked out.
Joel's approach and indeed one which became mine was that the whole junior coaching process is NOT about talent identification but about talent development.
This way, you move away from the limited elite selections which often involve selecting out kids that may have matured early but may not develop into anything special but you continue to allow ALL kids to mature and have a chance to rise up the performance tiers.
Also, you try to adopt a fluid approach to the grouping or kids and any team selections at the various age groups, allowing kids who you previously didn't see performing at a certain level the chance to demonstrate improvement and to come back into any 'selection reckoning', as opposed to the 'once they've been discarded, then that's it' mentality of most selection processes in junior sports.
I once asked a County Performance Officer for Tennis Surrey why he didn't identify the top 500 kids in his area of responsibilty as opposed to just a few names (maybe 35-50 of them) which were being fast tracked?
He hadn't even asked that question which effectively meant that he didn't have any interest in those who might develop at different rates as I've explained above.
In summary, there's nothing necessarily wrong with an elitist approach in junior sports as long as you pick the right kids and too often, certainly in tennis, football and cricket, once kids have been picked that's it and it's ok for them but if you miss the cut, you've had the door effectively shut in your face for good.
I reckon, as explained above that things should be much more flexible / fluid. But this is much harder work and most people / coaches don't want that, I'm afraid.
Final point is that in the French system of Talent ID in tennis, the most significant characteristic that they look for in kids is.......their attitude, not their level of technical skill. Interesting, I think.
Have you tried releasing it as an e-book?
I think that it sounds like something that should be of interest to people running the sport, as you have most certainly proven that you know your stuff.
Good luck with it though.
I understand your feelings, Alan.
But I suppose after all that stuff I've just written in the post above, I'd say that your son decided what level he was going to get to and that's the level he reached, not a possible level which, albeit with the best intentions, you and maybe others perceived that he might reach.
If he'd gone higher (Prestatyn Town etc), of course, it would have made you proud / happy but would it have made him happy?
I actually think he sounds like he has been quite courageous in that he has decided his own destiny and if we nurtured this attitude more in our kids by communicating more with them, then this would ultimately create certainly happier players and maybe better performing ones, in that they'd be playing at levels that they were happy with as opposed to be striving for goals which often adults had defined for them.
But I do accept that for parents (most of which were fantastic in my 14 years as tennis coach, by the way), striking this balance of support and helping their kids to identify pathways to higher levels is a complex one and without patronising you in the slightest, I've no doubt, you did the best you could with your so in this area. There are, after all, only guidelines but definately no rules.
And coaches need to do far more to identify for kids and parents the pathways up the ladder in all sports and what work is required to try and get there.
In my book, somewhere, I've written about the concept of optimum parental involvement as under involvement and the kid can often feel ignored and / or find that their development drifts while over involvement can led to crushing pressure which may lead to emotional or physical burn out, or both.
Smart sporting parents try to strike that middle ground.
I always wanted the parents involved but got frustrated by some who never showed any interest in what their kids were doing other than sending a cheque for the next set of sessions or conversely, I got completely stressed out and often angry when a few obsessive and over involved parents pushed their kids over acceptable limits, with one, I recall, bringing a technical text book onto court one time to show us how a volley should look!!!
Indeed and thanks, Batdude.
What I want to try and do and these thoughts are forming even as I write, is to use my website (which, if you've seen it, is a blog website not just a straight e-commerce product lead one) to write some posts which begin to translate what I wrote originally which was 100% for the tennis market, into a more generic youth sports positioning (80% of the book could be tailored quite easily for sports other than tennis because the same principles and many of the practices apply).
What this might lead to would be a re-write of the book into the generic youth sports angle and then I might test the sale of the book, chapter by chapter in my Ebay Shop, in order to test the technicalities of the selling process..
This might then lead to selling the book as a whole as an e-book with the option for people to buy the whole book, sections or individual chapters depending on their particular interest / need.
http://www.goalsandwickets.co.uk/football/football-editorial/greg-dyke/
I have in the past thought of becoming a youth coach, but been put off by my past experiences of other people, but if anyone can re-discover, or re-light that desire in me to do so, or to try once again, it could be you sir, as you have piqued my interest levels again, so many tanks for that.
I would be interested in reading your thoughts more in-depth, as you put them across very well, and they are well thought out as well.
Personally, I wish you nothing but success with this, your eBay store, and your website, as if anyone deserves success, then it is someone who has the knowledge that you most certainly have consistently displayed all over these boards.
That's really kind of you Batdude. Thank you.:)
What I really find rewarding is that you may have had your interest in getting involved in youth coaching rekindled.
That's great. Any questions you may have, let me know.
I have referenced a few of the ideas / concepts I used on a daily basis in that website article in the link above.
I am not totally a bad guy, I can recognise quality when I see it, and it is just such a crying shame that someone like yourself has been turned away from helping to make our younger generation better.
If I had anything to do with things, (which alas I don't), you would have got that Technical Role at The F.A., or been in charge of the youth development in tennis!
As I say for a long while, I have harboured ambitions of coaching, especially at the youth levels, but I just didn't like what I remember from how I was coached personally.
But reading what you have put (albeit only in the brief snippets that I have so far, and I will honestly read more later) up here, has kind of rekindled that within me.
To know that there are actually people out there that have put a lot of thought into this area (as you certainly have done), is great to see, and for that you do deserve to be congratulated on that, as it by no means is an easy topic to try and get right (if it ever is possible to solve in the first place).
So, many thanks and please don't give up on your book, or your website, as there are people out there, that do find these sort of things really interesting (even if your previous publishers tried to tell you otherwise sadly).
Sounds like exactly the reverse of what I am talking about in the website post below.
To Coaches and Parents, I'd say again; LEAVE THEM ALONE. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if they make loads of mistakes. This is how they develop. This is how they learn. They need to have fun and be allowed to play.
If we stop kids from doing this, we are not only strangling their development but slowly but surely we will stamp out the flame of interest which started them playing in the first place.
In junior tennis, despite all its' faults, you aren't allowed to coach players when matches are in progress. Maybe junior football should apply the same rule?
http://www.goalsandwickets.co.uk/footba ... greg-dyke/