Black Mirror Series 2

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,660
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    Straker wrote: »
    A perfectly edible, reheated TV dinner. Truly, Madly, Deeply via Final Cut via Body Snatchers with a soupcon of The Monkey’s Paw thrown in. Brooker’s read/seen ‘em all (Final Cut especially, so much so he must’ve worn a hole in it by now) and regurgitated them for our viewing pleasure. Nothing wrong with that, but an original voice he aint.

    He doesn't pretend to be original. He admitted 15 Millions Merits was inspired by Network. He stated The National Anthem was inspired by 1984 and his experience of Twitter. His idea for the last one was an extension of his ideas he expressed in one of his columns, Lost Highway and iPhone apps. Nothing is wholly original, this series is itself just his version of The Outer Limits and The Twilight Zone. He's clearly a fan of pop culture but this is like saying Quentin Tarantino is an awful director because he wears his influences from Italian Westerns, wu shu Shaw Brothers film, Japanese gangster movies and American B movies on his sleeve. Everyone has influences, even Martin Scorcese will talk highly of John Ford, Frederico Fellini, Francois Truffaut and The Archers.
  • StrakerStraker Posts: 79,567
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    Nothing is wholly original......

    So he shouldn’t try to be? Anyone who’s read/watched genre fiction for a few decades can spot Brooker’s sources with ease. He weaves them together with skill for the most part so like I said, nothing wrong with that, but I confess the most entertainment value I get from watching them is spotting the truly original stories that he’s taken from. I kinda think writers and programme makers should aspire to more loftier achievements than that myself. Perhaps if C4 didn’t promote the Black Mirror series as if they were tablets from the mount it might help lower expectations and be a more appropriate reflection of the well-worn SF tropes they present.
    ....this is like saying Quentin Tarantino is an awful director ...

    A few exceptions aside he mostly is. Easily the most self-indulgent director working today which is fine if you want to watch reflexive homage/mash-ups to the film genres of his video-store youth.
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    Glowbot wrote: »
    Great episode.

    Also I loved her workstation, I hope those become real. Not too sure about the robot boyfriend though :D

    To me it crossed over a few ideas, that of photographs and technology obviously, but also speaking to the dead.
    I've always found it insulting to the memory of the dead that you can have things like seances, but if it brings comfort, does it matter? Does it stop you from moving on?

    They already are, kind of.
    Lots of artists use a Cintiq which is pretty much what that screen was. Only it was massive.
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    ironjade wrote: »
    "Caprica"? They managed to make this idea (and, admittedly, several others) last for 18 episodes.
    Using social media to round out a virtual person and then have them end up in a robot body was the basis for the entire series.
    Zoe Greystone + killer robot = one of the best tv series ever to axed prematurely.

    There's also a strong influence of the anime Ghost in the Shell too.
  • Tt88Tt88 Posts: 6,827
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    Valentine wrote: »
    I love Charlie Brooker and watch/read pretty much everything he does but I loathed and hated this, it sickened me and I have a very black sense of humour. It's imprinted on my mind and I wish it wasn't, I found it very disturbing, so much so that I didn't watch the next 2. I did watch last night's though and thought it very watchable.

    For me the pm and the pig was so gripping because although it was far fetched, you could recognise how it could happen. The country was so outraged when the princess went missing and were so desperate to get her back they bullied the pm into doing anything.

    They were so bothered about having her returned safely that nobody was around to notice that she was returned safely while they were all glued to the tv watching the pm.

    It shows just how the nosey side of people can be. If they were all focused on their initial main aim of the princess and avoided the tv broadcast they would have saved the both of them.

    This epidode was really good and had that familiar far fetched yet it could be a possibility one day feel to it! All of his shows although sci fi seem eerily possible in the future.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,618
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    Some interesting ideas in the show...the ideas being the technological side of things of course. However, the high standard which was set with the first series has NOT been reached here yet. I felt let down and, not so much bored but, a bit meh about it. Reminded me a lot of the final one of the first series with the chip? Where you could replay your memories.

    I didn't like the ending and felt it was unneeded. Saying that, at risk of contradicting myself, if it had ended just with them at the cliff I'd have felt cheated. I just don't think we needed to see him/it again at the end. Overall I'd give that one a 6/10
  • DVDfeverDVDfever Posts: 18,535
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    And the pig ep wasn't that bad, it made me think anyway. I mean is saving a life not worth the cost? He didn't have to kill or hurt anyone.

    I thought that was potentially realistic. Quite mad that anyone could get it up to have sex with a pig, but, oddly, the PM could still retain some dignity from it because no-one was laughing at him by the end.
    I thought Black Mirror was ok , but nothing very new , I'll be honest the most compelling thing was Hayley Atwell's bangers , she's got a fantastic pair of jugs on her , she could probably give a Ken doll an erection

    PMSL! Yep, they were quite something. Of course, when she takes her bra off, they might fall down to her knees... :eek:
    I'd argue Eastenders is just as farcical if not as sci-fi oriented given the amount of sexual relationships Max Branning has given he is a bland, balding and overly aggressive ginger bloke who looks like he scrubs his face with a concrete based exfoliant and a washcloth made of sandpaper. Yet somehow he manages to bag women half his age off his better looking but now deceased son, strippers and still keep Tanya coming back for more. It's certainly not his charming demeanour or trustworthy, reliable nature. :D

    It shows there's hope for all of us ;)
    To be fair I think expecting a feature length film by Anthony Minghella to be equalled by Charlie Brooker over the course of 43 minutes is like expecting a Mini Metro to beat a Ferrari. Hayley Atwell is very pretty and Brooker made it clear he thought she was too and has been a fan of hers since her early work in his Guardian columns since reprinted as books. She is certainly not as talented as Juliet Stevenson and the material was nowhere near as emotive, nor could it be given the sci-fi element making it unrealistic.

    Bear in mind that TMD started life as a TV movie, rather than a cinema film, but it made the transition to the cinema afterwards.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,660
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    Straker wrote: »
    So he shouldn’t try to be? Anyone who’s read/watched genre fiction for a few decades can spot Brooker’s sources with ease. He weaves them together with skill for the most part so like I said, nothing wrong with that, but I confess the most entertainment value I get from watching them is spotting the truly original stories that he’s taken from. I kinda think writers and programme makers should aspire to more loftier achievements than that myself. Perhaps if C4 didn’t promote the Black Mirror series as if they were tablets from the mount it might help lower expectations and be a more appropriate reflection of the well-worn SF tropes they present.



    A few exceptions aside he mostly is. Easily the most self-indulgent director working today which is fine if you want to watch reflexive homage/mash-ups to the film genres of his video-store youth.

    Just because you are familiar with the source material, doesn't mean everyone is. I think this thread shows that many are not taking as much away or seeing the things some of us are in the show.

    I don't get Black Mirror being treated in that way. It's not presented like The Hour or Downtown Abbey, it is limited by it's very nature of being largely sci-fi based with the exception of TNA which was a grim farce set more or less in the current period we live in. Yes it does get promoted but to be fair given it's previous success that only makes sense in order to try bring back the old audience as well as bring in new viewers. Plus with generally less new scripted content on TV, it probably just seems like it stands out more as a result in the glut of reality TV shows, chat shows and panel shows.
  • RichmondBlueRichmondBlue Posts: 21,279
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    Straker wrote: »
    A perfectly edible, reheated TV dinner. Truly, Madly, Deeply via Final Cut via Body Snatchers with a soupcon of The Monkey’s Paw thrown in. Brooker’s read/seen ‘em all (Final Cut especially, so much so he must’ve worn a hole in it by now) and regurgitated them for our viewing pleasure. Nothing wrong with that, but an original voice he aint.

    Judging things by the criteria of originality, you would find it difficult to find anything that is truly original.
    Even science fiction itself began In ancient Greece, or maybe with the early Indian epics. There are even Sumerian texts that pre-date those.
    Whatever you care to examine, you will find tales that explored the same theme, going back centuries. It's what you gain out of a piece of work that counts..in my opinion.
  • ironjadeironjade Posts: 10,001
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    Judging things by the criteria of originality, you would find it difficult to find anything that is truly original.
    Even science fiction itself began In ancient Greece, or maybe with the early Indian epics. There are even Sumerian texts that pre-date those.
    Whatever you care to examine, you will find tales that explored the same theme, going back centuries. It's what you gain out of a piece of work that counts..in my opinion.

    How true:

    "Through all the legends of ancient peoples - Assyrian, Babylonian, Sumerian, Semitic - runs the saga of the Eternal Man, the one who never dies. Called by various names in various times, but historically known as Gilgamesh, the man who has never tasted death, the hero who strides through the centuries."

    Give yourself a bonus point if you know where this quote comes from.:)
  • StrakerStraker Posts: 79,567
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    Judging things by the criteria of originality, you would find it difficult to find anything that is truly original.

    I’m hearing that a lot. Some are reading it as an excuse to not even try and also as a reason to forgive derivative work. Am I to assume from what you say that any creative person should just content themselves with rehashing the past because “it’s all been done”?

    I demand better if shows are going to be offered up in the way Black Mirror is. They are not original, not daring or cutting-edge - They are pastiches of SF and horror fiction and are perfectly enjoyable as such but just not original. It’s probably as much the fault of lazy reviewers who’ve never read an SF book in their lives pimping these up as “Roll up, roll up.....Brand New Ideas From The Pen of Charlie Brooker!”.
  • Joe1500Joe1500 Posts: 2,653
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    doom&gloom wrote: »
    The only Charlie Brooker drama I've enjoyed was the Big Brother zombie thing and that was very unoriginal, he should stick to critiquing drama not making it.

    It's nice to see a critic who can actually create something. Makes a change to gabblemouths like Mark Kermode who can't do, so just critique.
  • Joe1500Joe1500 Posts: 2,653
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    AnitaS wrote: »
    The ending was weird though. It should have just ended with the scream.

    I thought the ending was quite good. It seemed to be about how the artificial Ash never grew old and how she was left with something that quickly outlived its welcome.
  • StrakerStraker Posts: 79,567
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    Joe1500 wrote: »
    I thought the ending was quite good. It seemed to be about how the artificial Ash never grew old and how she was left with something that quickly outlived its welcome.

    Yes, the resigned pause before she ascended the steps and the slam-cut to black was a good way to end it. Having said that if Brooker had found a way to do without the gro-bag Ash and still managed to make it creepy it would’ve been more effective and believable. It’s too much of a leap to ask for an audience to buy into such a concept without laying some serious groundwork/screentime first. That and the distractingly jiggly cleavage were errors of judgement IMO!
  • Joe1500Joe1500 Posts: 2,653
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    Vexille1 wrote: »
    Yes, well put - the clone Ash becomes like the photos of Ash's brother -kept in the attic when gone.

    Leaving aside the SF elements, the obvious source for this was Truly Madly Deeply, except that unlike in that film, she doesn't move on.

    The SF element was integral to this story. I can see a potential influence from the X Files epsiode Kaddish which involved a golem. However, I've no idea if this did influence Brooker.
  • Joe1500Joe1500 Posts: 2,653
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    Straker wrote: »
    Yes, the resigned pause before she ascended the steps and the slam-cut to black was a good way to end it. Having said that if Brooker had found a way to do without the gro-bag Ash and still managed to make it creepy it would’ve been more effective and believable. It’s too much of a leap to ask for an audience to buy into such a concept without laying some serious groundwork/screentime first. That and the distractingly jiggly cleavage were errors of judgement IMO!

    Jiggly cleavage is rarely an error of judgement :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,660
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    Straker wrote: »
    I’m hearing that a lot. Some are reading it as an excuse to not even try and also as a reason to forgive derivative work. Am I to assume from what you say that any creative person should just content themselves with rehashing the past because “it’s all been done”?

    I demand better if shows are going to be offered up in the way Black Mirror is. They are not original, not daring or cutting-edge - They are pastiches of SF and horror fiction and are perfectly enjoyable as such but just not original. It’s probably as much the fault of lazy reviewers who’ve never read an SF book in their lives pimping these up as “Roll up, roll up.....Brand New Ideas From The Pen of Charlie Brooker!”.

    I think you'd need to be either the head of programming or a producer to be in any position to do that.

    It's a modern version of Hitchcock Presents, The Outer Limits, Tales From The Crypt or The Twilight Zone. It never claimed to be Masterpiece Theatre. It's very nature dictates it's material will not be incredibly highbrow, just hopefully though provoking.

    As for lazy reviewers... I think you're starting to project and imagine things for your own liking there. He's not responsible for reviewers opinions or their lack of knowledge.
  • brewer480brewer480 Posts: 1,680
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    Personally this was my favourite ep of BM so far. Its the only one that i could potentially see becoming physically possible. I really liked the way the technology kept upgrading in time from being able to just type, to talking and then becoming a human life. A bit of a shame they didn't continue with the upgrades so the fake ash was more realistic. It's a good way of showing corporate exploitation and how vulnerable people can get trapped from them.

    I thought the ending was necessary, it's important to know that she was not able to move on with the new technology and so ultimately the technology was bad for her.

    The series to me is getting better as it goes on. I think the national anthem was rediculous though, politicians dont care what the public think about a certain issue if their job or reputation is on the line. Plus they would know that a form of beastality (even if "forced") would whip their job right away!
  • brewer480brewer480 Posts: 1,680
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    I think you'd need to be either the head of programming or a producer to be in any position to do that.

    It's a modern version of Hitchcock Presents, The Outer Limits, Tales From The Crypt or The Twilight Zone. It never claimed to be Masterpiece Theatre. It's very nature dictates it's material will not be incredibly highbrow, just hopefully though provoking.

    As for lazy reviewers... I think you're starting to project and imagine things for your own liking there. He's not responsible for reviewers opinions or their lack of knowledge.

    Absolutely agree, this type of program isn't supposed to be one that breaks the boundaries or creates a new form of sci fi. It's a program that is trying to show awareness to us how new technology may not always be that great. It's not a program you're supposed to enjoy but one that makes you think a lot after!

    If you demand more watch a sci fi channel!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,660
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    brewer480 wrote: »
    Absolutely agree, this type of program isn't supposed to be one that breaks the boundaries or creates a new form of sci fi. It's a program that is trying to show awareness to us how new technology may not always be that great. It's not a program you're supposed to enjoy but one that makes you think a lot after!

    If you demand more watch a sci fi channel!

    Well the title is meant to be not only about portraying grim possible reflections of modern life or the near future but also what a TV turned off resembles. I think it does a decent job of showing what could happen and as I noted with the Nadine Dorries/I'm A Celeb... situation, it did fairly predict the idea of a person in government degrading themselves in the hopes of public approval by doing unsanitary things with animal parts...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 284
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    I quite enjoyed the first half, but it kind of petered out for me. It felt like Brooker didn't know quite what to do with the guy by the end. I was also expecting it to go more down a 'the danger of people knowing everything about a person' route than a 'he's not quite the guy he's meant to be' route. Still, enjoyable enough.
  • doom&gloomdoom&gloom Posts: 9,051
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    Joe1500 wrote: »
    It's nice to see a critic who can actually create something. Makes a change to gabblemouths like Mark Kermode who can't do, so just critique.

    Mark Kermode is not a TV producer though as far as I know or he might have had a go.
  • Robin DaviesRobin Davies Posts: 426
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    Straker wrote: »
    I’m hearing that a lot. Some are reading it as an excuse to not even try and also as a reason to forgive derivative work. Am I to assume from what you say that any creative person should just content themselves with rehashing the past because “it’s all been done”?

    I demand better if shows are going to be offered up in the way Black Mirror is. They are not original, not daring or cutting-edge - They are pastiches of SF and horror fiction and are perfectly enjoyable as such but just not original.
    Can you cite a TV series that is totally original?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,660
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    I quite enjoyed the first half, but it kind of petered out for me. It felt like Brooker didn't know quite what to do with the guy by the end. I
    was also expecting it to go more down a 'the danger of people knowing everything about a person' route than a 'he's not quite the guy he's meant to be' route
    . Still, enjoyable enough.

    I think that may affect your enjoyment if you go into a show like this with assumptions. I tend to watch something twice, once to enjoy it, the second to analyse it so I can kind of enjoy it as a viewer and the critique it or refresh myself on any details I missed the first time.
    Mark Kermode is not a TV producer though as far as I know or he might have had a go.

    But Kermode is a writer and critic just like Brooker. If he can get his own radio show and role on The Culture Show, he obviously has an audience he just has yet to write anything for the TV medium aside from Culture Show monologues.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 284
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    I think that may affect your enjoyment if you go into a show like this with assumptions. I tend to watch something twice, once to enjoy it, the second to analyse it so I can kind of enjoy it as a viewer and the critique it or refresh myself on any details I missed the first time.
    It wasn't really an assumption. As you watch things, you have predictions/expectations as to where the story is going to go - and with the increasing amount of information being exchanged to make the guy more 'real' I thought it'd be more about the dangers of that, especially since it's Brooker and he's usually making a social comment with this type of thing. But there was none of that, and the second half was just a bit all over the place and felt a bit pointless - there was no real-life 'message' to it or moral to the story - and the ending reinforced this for me, since it felt like Brooker wasn't entirely sure what the point of the whole thing was.
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