The cause of the problem is numbers. Bring in small numbers and everyone gets along. Why? Because there's no apartheid, no enclaves; in other words, the newcomers assimilate. It works.
The history of Canada has always been about very small numbers of Poles, Swedes, Ukrainians all settling in a community where everyone else was English or Scottish. That's it! It's never been multicultural. Apart from a few perogy shops it's all a watered down version of English culture here and one province of French people.
For the first time in our history, we are seeing overwhelmingly large numbers of immigrants coming from only one or two countries, living in self-imposed apartheid-like areas, and I'm seeing some serious upset here, just like in Europe.
You don't suppose it's the sheer numbers that's tipping the balance from tolerance to resentment?
You need not look as far afield as canada. Scotland hasnt seen the same amount of immigration as england and imo those who arrived from eastern europe have joined society with little trouble.
The way I see it, the problems with multiculturalism are:
* The public were never asked if they wanted it
What would the question be? What is the alternative? Forcing people to eat egg and chips while downing a pint of bitter and singing Rule Britannia?
* We generally like our own culture just fine, and accept that we can go overseas to appreciate others if we want to
Does our own culture include ethnic food from around the world, music influenced from around the world and a language that includes words from around the world? Or are you speaking Saxon while drinking mead and roasting a bore?
*We are not at all selective over who we do or do not want to come here, we'll take almost anyone and everyone
This is an immigration policy issue, nothing to do with multiculturalism.
*Immigrants coming here do so for a better life, IE they are coming from a country with lower standards than we have. Nothing against the individuals, but on a large scale this huge influx of labour brings down wages and lowers standards of living for all of us already living here.
This is an immigration policy issue, nothing to do with multiculturalism.
*Ghettos are created where people generally stick to their own, and dont mix
True, but this is usually driven by economics as much as avoiding English culture. People arriving in a new country are often poor (as you highlight in your previous point) and share accommodation with friends and relatives already here to save money.
*People are feeling the pressures of an over populated country, densely packed with less and less space, and more concerns over lack of housing, quality jobs, services etc
This is an immigration policy issue, nothing to do with multiculturalism.
Welcome, and thankyou for your refreshingly honest and insightful contributions.
It's refreshing to hear from someone in another English speaking country. I suspect you do not labour under the politically correct jackboot we do here, where such debate has to be in coded language lest the Guardianista get too outraged and reach for button.
I watched "Martin Amis's England" on iPlayer last night, and he is so, so right.
Doesn't explain why you feel the need for "coded language" etc though...
...especially when someone like Amis, who the poster thinks is "so, so right", is not only allowed to express his opinion but gets a whole show on the state broadcaster to do it. It's not a very EFFECTIVE jackboot, really.
...especially when someone like Amis, who the poster thinks is "so, so right", is not only allowed to express his opinion but gets a whole show on the state broadcaster to do it. It's not a very EFFECTIVE jackboot, really.
Are you disappointed?
Seems to me that if anyone feels they cannot express their opinions on anything that's a sorry state of affairs.
Seems to me that if anyone feels they cannot express their opinions on anything that's a sorry state of affairs.
It is. But there's no reason why they should feel that way, unless they have really extreme and offensive views which would be unpalatable to most people.
It is. But there's no reason why they should feel that way, unless they have really extreme and offensive views which would be unpalatable to most people.
That's what really confuses me. People seem to be claiming that they can't speak or express their opinions, when they are perfectly at liberty to do so as long as those opinions are not extreme (or likely to incite hatred or slander someone). If that's the case, they should question why they hold views which can't legally be expressed.
Britain has always wanted to be multicultural since times started!
Those who are against multiculturalism will say that the diffrence is that the Ancient Britons, Angles, Saxons Jutes, the Norse and the Normans were not so different from each other (i.e white European) so it didn't matter then and I have seen this argument several times. Then they'll contradict themselves and say that their opposition to multiculturalism has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
Seems to me that if anyone feels they cannot express their opinions on anything that's a sorry state of affairs.
Only insofar as it means they've fundamentally misunderstood their own position. They clearly CAN express their opinions. I'm at a loss as to how they can not realise this, when they themselves can give examples of people with the same opinions not only expressing them, but being given a major platform on which to do so.
Those who are against multiculturalism will say that the diffrence is that the Ancient Britons, Angles, Saxons Jutes, the Norse and the Normans were not so different from each other (i.e white European) so it didn't matter then and I have seen this argument several times. Then they'll contradict themselves and say that their opposition to multiculturalism has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
I understand multiculturalism as the absence of a predominant culture and I think that is a really good thing as it facilitates diversity and freedom of speech. few dictatorships or tyrants support multiculteralism
There is nothing to stop laws that bar activities like FGM but much of this thread is about trivia like how sociable someone is. We should not impose rules on others that we would not countenance for ourselves.
I agree people should learn a language but we British are notably useless and lazy as linguists. How would they want to enforce it. ban speaking in a foreign language in a public place?
Only insofar as it means they've fundamentally misunderstood their own position. They clearly CAN express their opinions. I'm at a loss as to how they can not realise this, when they themselves can give examples of people with the same opinions not only expressing them, but being given a major platform on which to do so.
What they don't realise is that there's a difference between being denied the right to express their opinion and not getting exactly what they want.
You need not look as far afield as canada. Scotland hasnt seen the same amount of immigration as england and imo those who arrived from eastern europe have joined society with little trouble.
Yes, but Jonnyboi, how many?? Look, we are all the same in how we react to things.
What's interesting to me is that in small numbers, we welcome immigrants, we want them here, we want to know about their cultures. The scary thing is that the opposite happens when people come here in large numbers. That is my point.
Ask me about any culture, I'll tell you stories about what I've learned from the many immigrant friends I have.
Now on the other hand, if you tell me that Scottish culture will die out as a result of so many immigrants that colonization is the result, then I'll be the first to throw a full-fledged hysterical fit.
And I'm not Scottish!. But Cape Breton is, and so are a huge number of original settlers to Canada. I'll stand for them. And for anyone who can sing the entire lyrics to Marimac :-)
Bottom line is we all remove our shoes before entering another's land.
And be sure to kiss the ground too, that ground is made up of the bones of our ancestors.
Now on the other hand, if you tell me that Scottish culture will die out as a result of so many immigrants that colonization is the result, then I'll be the first to throw a full-fledged hysterical fit..
The danger to British culture is American culture.
That and a culture of individual pursuit of pleasure and materail goods, lack of community.
No we are not. We are not all in agreement over multiculturalism or immigration.
The danger to British culture is American culture.
That and a culture of individual pursuit of pleasure and materail goods, lack of community.
WTF is wrong with the pursuit of pleasure and material goods. Do you not like pleasure or material goods,I much prefer american culture over muslim culture or polish culture.
WTF is wrong with the pursuit of pleasure and material goods. Do you not like pleasure or material goods,I much prefer american culture over muslim culture or polish culture.
British culture and society to me is defined in part by social activities and community and history being part of a greater whole and traditional activities. While individual pursuit of pleasure and materialism is just individualism. Some posters have mentioned multiculturism as a danger to social cohension and sense of community. To me individualism looks a bigger danger.
I much prefer american culture over muslim culture or polish culture.
So multiculturalism even if it replaces your own culture is all fine and dandy as long as it is USA culture, because you like USA culture. So you are not oppossed to multiculturalism or even having your own culture replaced, you just don't like some other cultures.
British culture from things like arts and entertainment to cultural activities and celebration to food has and continues to be replaced wholesale by American culture. Form American music, TV, films to American fast food chains, clothes, even celebrations like halloween vs Guy Fawkes, etc. We are the 51st state of the USA. The culture of the USA is becoming the predominate world culture, if other cultures are to be seen as invasive and replacing our own culture, then USA culture is the danger.
British culture and society to me is defined in part by social activities and community and history being part of a greater whole and traditional activities. While individual pursuit of pleasure and materialism is just individualism.
So multiculturalism even if it replaces your own culture is all fine and dandy as long as it is USA culture, because you like USA culture. So you are not oppossed to multiculturalism or even having your own culture replaced, you just don't like some other cultures.
British culture from things like arts and entertainment to cultural activities and celebration to food has and continues to be replaced wholesale by American culture. Form American music, TV, films to American fast food chains, clothes, even celebrations like halloween vs Guy Fawkes, etc. We are the 51st state of the USA. The culture of the USA is becoming the predominate world culture, if other cultures are to be seen as invasive and replacing our own culture, then USA culture is the danger.
We should be FREE to choose which cultures we want to be part of,and I like American culture over muslim culture or any european culture.lf people want to like muslim or european culture that's up to then but don't force it on to me
We should be FREE to choose which cultures we want to be part of,and I like American culture over muslim culture or any european culture.lf people want to like muslim or european culture that's up to then but don't force it on to me
How is it being forced onto you?
What Muslim or European cultural activities are you being forced to partake in?
Comments
You need not look as far afield as canada. Scotland hasnt seen the same amount of immigration as england and imo those who arrived from eastern europe have joined society with little trouble.
What would the question be? What is the alternative? Forcing people to eat egg and chips while downing a pint of bitter and singing Rule Britannia?
Does our own culture include ethnic food from around the world, music influenced from around the world and a language that includes words from around the world? Or are you speaking Saxon while drinking mead and roasting a bore?
This is an immigration policy issue, nothing to do with multiculturalism.
This is an immigration policy issue, nothing to do with multiculturalism.
True, but this is usually driven by economics as much as avoiding English culture. People arriving in a new country are often poor (as you highlight in your previous point) and share accommodation with friends and relatives already here to save money.
This is an immigration policy issue, nothing to do with multiculturalism.
Well, of course you wouldn't. You're on the opposite side of the argument to me.
What is it you want to say but feel you can't?
Doesn't explain why you feel the need for "coded language" etc though...
...especially when someone like Amis, who the poster thinks is "so, so right", is not only allowed to express his opinion but gets a whole show on the state broadcaster to do it. It's not a very EFFECTIVE jackboot, really.
Are you disappointed?
Seems to me that if anyone feels they cannot express their opinions on anything that's a sorry state of affairs.
Even if they're wrong, and can in fact express their opinions?
It is. But there's no reason why they should feel that way, unless they have really extreme and offensive views which would be unpalatable to most people.
That's what really confuses me. People seem to be claiming that they can't speak or express their opinions, when they are perfectly at liberty to do so as long as those opinions are not extreme (or likely to incite hatred or slander someone). If that's the case, they should question why they hold views which can't legally be expressed.
Those who are against multiculturalism will say that the diffrence is that the Ancient Britons, Angles, Saxons Jutes, the Norse and the Normans were not so different from each other (i.e white European) so it didn't matter then and I have seen this argument several times. Then they'll contradict themselves and say that their opposition to multiculturalism has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
Why would I be disappointed?
Only insofar as it means they've fundamentally misunderstood their own position. They clearly CAN express their opinions. I'm at a loss as to how they can not realise this, when they themselves can give examples of people with the same opinions not only expressing them, but being given a major platform on which to do so.
I understand multiculturalism as the absence of a predominant culture and I think that is a really good thing as it facilitates diversity and freedom of speech. few dictatorships or tyrants support multiculteralism
There is nothing to stop laws that bar activities like FGM but much of this thread is about trivia like how sociable someone is. We should not impose rules on others that we would not countenance for ourselves.
I agree people should learn a language but we British are notably useless and lazy as linguists. How would they want to enforce it. ban speaking in a foreign language in a public place?
What they don't realise is that there's a difference between being denied the right to express their opinion and not getting exactly what they want.
No they're not, but neither are they responsible for the achievements of their ancestors.
Saying that we can shake off the atrocities of our forebears but at the same time revel in their successes (as many do) seems a bit selective to me.
Yes, but Jonnyboi, how many?? Look, we are all the same in how we react to things.
What's interesting to me is that in small numbers, we welcome immigrants, we want them here, we want to know about their cultures. The scary thing is that the opposite happens when people come here in large numbers. That is my point.
Ask me about any culture, I'll tell you stories about what I've learned from the many immigrant friends I have.
Now on the other hand, if you tell me that Scottish culture will die out as a result of so many immigrants that colonization is the result, then I'll be the first to throw a full-fledged hysterical fit.
And I'm not Scottish!. But Cape Breton is, and so are a huge number of original settlers to Canada. I'll stand for them. And for anyone who can sing the entire lyrics to Marimac :-)
Bottom line is we all remove our shoes before entering another's land.
And be sure to kiss the ground too, that ground is made up of the bones of our ancestors.
Cheers Jonnyboi
That and a culture of individual pursuit of pleasure and materail goods, lack of community.
WTF is wrong with the pursuit of pleasure and material goods. Do you not like pleasure or material goods,I much prefer american culture over muslim culture or polish culture.
Your got to think of yourself And family 1st and foremost as they most important to you.
True, but you also need to give some consideration to the wider community, and of course the environment as well.
So multiculturalism even if it replaces your own culture is all fine and dandy as long as it is USA culture, because you like USA culture. So you are not oppossed to multiculturalism or even having your own culture replaced, you just don't like some other cultures.
British culture from things like arts and entertainment to cultural activities and celebration to food has and continues to be replaced wholesale by American culture. Form American music, TV, films to American fast food chains, clothes, even celebrations like halloween vs Guy Fawkes, etc. We are the 51st state of the USA. The culture of the USA is becoming the predominate world culture, if other cultures are to be seen as invasive and replacing our own culture, then USA culture is the danger.
We should be FREE to choose which cultures we want to be part of,and I like American culture over muslim culture or any european culture.lf people want to like muslim or european culture that's up to then but don't force it on to me
What Muslim or European cultural activities are you being forced to partake in?