Politics of homosexuality and Gay Marriage
HillmanImp
Posts: 2,874 Forum Member
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The only openly gay culture that existed in the West was ancient Greece.The Greeks gave this culture up in exchange for Christianity (St Paul actually preached on the Areopagus rock in Athens -I guess a bit like Speakers Corner mixed with Prime Ministers Question time and the Old Bailey (if that combo could be possible). One assumes knowing BOTH first hand the Greeks choose the best option (Christianity) for their society.
Same Sex sex has less obvious life changing consequences for an individual (no baby can occur) so perhaps one can see a cultural/political drift in that direction (younger teen boys that look like girls) - its relatively easy (some boy bands).
But when we look at individual freedom we should also look at the culture big picture.
It is possible that it will become more acceptable for older men to pick up school boys.
It is possible that homosexual rape amongst boys might become more common.
Would we want our 11 ,12, 13 year old boys to be in a playground with relatively large numbers of openly gay or bi-sexual older teens (and lets face it, some of these boys ( an average percent) will be bullies or violent).
Do the social engineers behind this cultural shift to benefit individual rights understand the possible negative consequences for our culture as a whole?
I personally am all in favour of letting people be openly gay or openly heterosexual or openly ambiguous or whatever.
However, I have little or know understanding of how this cultural shift (gay marriage) will effect the big cultural picture. I hope our politicians have done their socio-political sums right and are not just pandering to political pressure groups.
My working assumption is gayness increases the amount of sexual activity in society so cuts down the amount of creativity and sport (90% of sport and creativity is "perspiration" eg the idea is just a tiny amount - the effort is the main ingredient).
Often, in olden times, gay men were very creative - perhaps because the outlet of sex was pretty much non-existent. Will homosexuality dumb down the west brains and muscles? Or will it just lead to a more pleasant and nicer society where people are just honest?
Same Sex sex has less obvious life changing consequences for an individual (no baby can occur) so perhaps one can see a cultural/political drift in that direction (younger teen boys that look like girls) - its relatively easy (some boy bands).
But when we look at individual freedom we should also look at the culture big picture.
It is possible that it will become more acceptable for older men to pick up school boys.
It is possible that homosexual rape amongst boys might become more common.
Would we want our 11 ,12, 13 year old boys to be in a playground with relatively large numbers of openly gay or bi-sexual older teens (and lets face it, some of these boys ( an average percent) will be bullies or violent).
Do the social engineers behind this cultural shift to benefit individual rights understand the possible negative consequences for our culture as a whole?
I personally am all in favour of letting people be openly gay or openly heterosexual or openly ambiguous or whatever.
However, I have little or know understanding of how this cultural shift (gay marriage) will effect the big cultural picture. I hope our politicians have done their socio-political sums right and are not just pandering to political pressure groups.
My working assumption is gayness increases the amount of sexual activity in society so cuts down the amount of creativity and sport (90% of sport and creativity is "perspiration" eg the idea is just a tiny amount - the effort is the main ingredient).
Often, in olden times, gay men were very creative - perhaps because the outlet of sex was pretty much non-existent. Will homosexuality dumb down the west brains and muscles? Or will it just lead to a more pleasant and nicer society where people are just honest?
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Comments
I don't post often and was just going to ignore this post but some of the things you said are annoying me.
Firstly, I see you're only focusing on gays and not lesbians. Do you think that lesbians being more accepted won't change society as you're trying to point out that gays will?
Is it acceptable for older men to pick up school girls? No. I don't how it will be any different the other way round.
Rape among men is already more common then you think. Look at the recent news about the happenings in the 60's/70's/80's. Was homosexuality accepted back then? Rape among men has been going back centuries. The majority of times rape isn't about homosexuality, it's about power and I see no reason why homosexuals being accepted will cause more of that.
If I had the same attitude now a few years ago, then I would've happily let my sons hang around with a bunch openly gay guys. Where did you get that an average number of these guys will be violent or bullies? That's ridiculous. They will be no violent then your average straight man.
You're last paragraph is highly stereotypical. Most are just normal guys who want a relationship with a nice guy, a house, a wedding, kids? (e.g. The 'normal' lifestyle). They are no more and no less sexual active then straight men.
Thanks for the reply, some interesting points and some misunderstandings.
the misunderstandings first:
When I said average violence - I did not mean average of only gay men violence - I meant the average of male violence within society at large .
Lesbianism. This is a different subject from homosexuality as normal teenage girls commonly have sleep overs and are quite touchy feely. The line between one and the other is not quite so stark and obvious and I'm not a woman so its not a subject I can write about .
Generally speaking, I agree with the thrust of your argument, namely you think the change towards full acceptance and marriage rights for gay men is right and good and indeed beneficial.
However, your arguments against my arguments tend to be "hearsay" in that they do not appear to come from peer reviewed scientific analysis but rather "your personal general beliefs concerning the history of homosexuality"
Your last paragraph. I agree but mathematically we are creating less social pressure against more kinds of valid reasons for divorce. I once met a middle aged man who left his wife and two teenage daughters for a "boy" (about 17 or 18) who looked like a pretty girl (but obviously a boy too). This will become, potentially more common because it will become more acceptable for a middle age man to have a teenage boy friend... That is ancient greece back - full circle.
Abuse of children - by adults of whatever sex or sexuality is clearly unacceptable.
As for gay marriage - its legal now - but even for most gay men there are more important issues to decide your vote on (e.g. the economy, jobs, housing, cost of living). Marriage isn't much fun if you can't afford a home or don't have a job, can't afford to heat your home, you are stressed out because your local council won't provide any social care for your elderly mum or disabled sister or you suffer from crime and you can't get any help from the police due to police cuts etc etc!
Not every gay man is a luvvie living in a £2m house in Hampstead and Highgate - they face the same struggles as everyone else.
If you remember the psychological experiment with students enacting Guards and Prisoners you will note that people will potentially become homosexual simply because it is acceptable.
Part peer pressure, part society and part experimentation. So, this thread is NOT about individual freedom but rather will the fabric society be damaged (or not) by these new freedoms.
If pedo's prey on this, I think thats always been an issue as the Dolphin square scandal shows. That is something that authorities will have to continue fighting although you can never completely stop it.
I have never understood gay marriage, as most gay men presumably do not believe in god or believe in someone which says they are wrong in what they are doing. So what is the point.
I understand civil partnetship.
People have always been having sex why would that stop productivity. It should help it.
Not sure about the last one.
What nonsense.
Tell that to the gay men being chucked off buildings by ISIS in Syria and Iraq. In the 80 years being gay was illegal in the UK 50,000 men were prosecuted. Why would they choose something that was socially unacceptable - or become gay when peer pressure meant being gay meant jail or a possible death sentence. Proportionally there are the same number of gay and lesbians as there probably have always been - but now they don't have to hide away in the UK so are more visible.
Can you explain when due to peer pressure you decided to become attracted to the opposite sex - are you seriously suggesting that by hanging out with gay men or lesbians for a week you would suddenly find people of the same sex attractive. Seriously?!
Its innate - like straight people fancying the opposite sex.
Its possible many people have homosexual traits within them, even if they don't know it. The question is why do so many prisoners "turn gay". Were they gay to start with or have they adapted to become gay to get their fix.
Are you gay?
It's basically the old nature/nurture argument, is it? When you say ".....potentially become homosexual simply because it is acceptable." Well, personally the answer to your question there is "No. I don't think so." Freedoms are good.
Well, the OP makes a habit of posting nonsense! It's surely got to be trolling - I can't take him/her seriously.
Like I previously said, rape among men (especially in prisons) is more about power then actually homosexuality.
To be more fair than I should, there is evidence that situational sexuality exists, but i think the OP is massively exaggerating it.
After reading this post, it sounds like the dumbing down has already begun.
You are so dumbed down, you've reached Earth's outer core.
But that counts for marriage between men and women too. I have been to a few church weddings even though they are not religious. So presumably you dont understand the point of marriage altogether?
Marriage can be a secular affair and thus have nothing whatever to do with religion, although of course there are gay people who are Christians and would like a church wedding.
Heh. He does write well mind. Just seen OP's "Near Future" thread. Some funny comments in there. Ummmm....interesting views, Mr Imp! Or can I call you Hillman?
I have an idea of marriage which I consider correct.
When people start saying gay people can't be religious/good people cos the Bible says so I am always reminded of this scene from the West Wing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM
Presumably you cannot be a good Christian either if
oppose slavery
don't personally execute your children when they take a Saturday job
don't burn your mother to death if she wears clothing made of more than one material
don't stone your friend at the allotment to death if they plant two different crops next to each other or
have sex before marriage, eat prawn cocktail or have bacon sandwiches.
If you condemn people for being gay because of the Bible - then if you don't subscribe to the above too you are just being a little hypocritical. If you don't like gay people just be honest - and don't use religion or the Bible to support your personal prejudice!
The op makes it sound like gays are gonna abuse other kids or something and that is very homophobic
That it's a religious institution?
And that's a bad thing?;-)
I think its good that different people hold different views. These days people are scared to say anything different to the norm.
Its just I have always held the view that marriage is about getting your commitment to each other sort of verified under god, and as god does not allow gay relationships it seems strange to me that gay people want to get married.