The notion that anyone fed up to the back teeth with the EU open border policy is racist/xenophobic is part of the problem in modern society.
This line comes out literally every time someone mentions racism/xenophobia. Why do we have such a hard time accepting that some (not all) of the anti-immigrant debate is driven by irrational prejudice?
That doesn't mean that everyone who questions immigration is a racist, it simply means that xenophobia is a part of the debate. This desire to try and eliminate it from the discussion is a nonsense.
Not when it comes to unrestricted European access to Britain ,no it isn't.
The notion that anyone fed up to the back teeth with the EU open border policy is racist/xenophobic is part of the problem in modern society.
Some of the do gooders on these forums would only be satisfied if every poor/unskilled/unhealthy/criminal person on Earth was allowed to live rent free in Britain
So when you've driven all the 'foreigners' out and still find the country suffering from unemployment, lack of public services, high taxes, high house prices and low wages, which group will you drive out next?
This line comes out literally every time someone mentions racism/xenophobia. Why do we have such a hard time accepting that some (not all) of the anti-immigrant debate is driven by irrational prejudice?
That doesn't mean that everyone who questions immigration is a racist, it simply means that xenophobia is a part of the debate. This desire to try and eliminate it from the discussion is a nonsense.
and if people are prejudiced thats up to them this is a democracy and people can hold whatever views they want for whatever reason
So when you've driven all the 'foreigners' out and still find the country suffering from unemployment, lack of public services, high taxes, high house prices and low wages, which group will you drive out next?
So you're saying that uncontrolled immigration keeps house prices down, unemployment down, taxes down, wages higher than they would be..? That is what you're saying.
Blimey - FIVE Danish ministries came to the blindingly obvious conclusion that if people come over and claim welfare on the whole, then it is detrimental to the economy - which is what is likely to happen in this case (the ones with skills that want to come probably are here already).
and if people are prejudiced thats up to them this is a democracy and people can hold whatever views they want for whatever reason
Who said they can't? There's a difference between saying people are entitled to hold whatever irrational prejudices they like, and saying that we should actually form policies on the basis of that prejudice.
At any time the UK government can refuse them entry. The worst that could happen is the UK gets thrown out of the EU.
I dont see how we'd be thrown out for saying no to Romania & Bulgaria.
We've already done plenty for the EU by accomodating approx 2 million Poles and making their lives significantly better than in Poland. I think we've done more than enough for Europe to warrant us saying no this time and not be penalised in any way.
So you're saying that uncontrolled immigration keeps house prices down, unemployment down, taxes down, wages higher than they would be..? That is what you're saying.
Blimey - FIVE Danish ministries came to the blindingly obvious conclusion that if people come over and claim welfare on the whole, then it is detrimental to the economy - which is what is likely to happen in this case (the ones with skills that want to come probably are here already).
There's plenty of evidence that the immigration associated with the 2004 enlargement generated extra growth for the economy. You have to balance that against the extra strain on public services and the impact on jobs, but at best it's an extremely complicated issue for which there aren't any easy answers.
Even if we do come down on the anti-immigration side in that debate, though, the impact of "economic migrants" on the welfare system is still grossly overstated. It's not even close to being the biggest issue facing the country at present, yet it's never off the political agenda.
so many ex BNP/EDL supporters flocking to UKIP...I cant imagine why that might be
It's almost as if they see ukip as the presentable public face of their own policies and desires isn't it? Can't be that though, they would never try to deceive now would they...
There's plenty of evidence that the immigration associated with the 2004 enlargement generated extra growth for the economy. You have to balance that against the extra strain on public services and the impact on jobs, but at best it's an extremely complicated issue for which there aren't any easy answers.
On with the evidence - I'd like to see it. It's possible that growth increased a bit (as it usually does year on year).
I've seen some reports that say unemployment wasn't affected, wages did not decrease - frankly, I'd be amazed if either wasn't affected. Jobs have not been on the increase since the recession, and if wages weren't driven down, there'd be no economic sense for the EU immigrants.
Even if we do come down on the anti-immigration side in that debate, though, the impact of "economic migrants" on the welfare system is still grossly overstated. It's not even close to being the biggest issue facing the country at present, yet it's never off the political agenda.
What is the biggest issue then - if not economy, wages, unemployment etc.
I'm not against economic migrants - they're needed in some capacity to fill the gaps.
On with the evidence - I'd like to see it. It's possible that growth increased a bit (as it usually does year on year).
I've seen some reports that say unemployment wasn't affected, wages did not decrease - frankly, I'd be amazed if either wasn't affected. Jobs have not been on the increase since the recession, and if wages weren't driven down, there'd be no economic sense for the EU immigrants.
There's a National Institute for Economic and Social Research study which is often quoted in this context - it indicates that the immigration from the 2004 accession generated an extra 0.38% of GDP up until 2009. Like I say, you have to balance that against other factors such as public services and employment. I'm not going to overstate the point - immigration, like anything else, has to be managed. It's possible to have damaging immigration, but there has to be some objective evidence presented if we want to come to that conclusion in an individual case like immigration from the 2004 enlargement..
What is the biggest issue then - if not economy, wages, unemployment etc.
I'm not against economic migrants - they're needed in some capacity to fill the gaps.
The economy and unemployment are obviously the main issues affecting the country at present, but they're not problems caused by immigration. Even when we identify some negative effect of immigration on unemployment it's relatively small.
The economy and unemployment are obviously the main issues affecting the country at present, but they're not problems caused by immigration. Even when we identify some negative effect of immigration on unemployment it's relatively small.
You don't think immigration has caused some degree of unemployment in some sectors, where homegrown graduates could have been nurtured?
They'll come in large numbers.
They'll be given housing.
They'll live like savages.
They'll be noisy and dirty
They'll give you a beating if you complain.
The council won't dare do anything because these people will claim their 'uman rights'.
You'll move out, as will almost all other decent natives.
More Romanians will move in and it will become a 'Romanian Area' with constant violence, drunkenness and general sh!ttery
The police will treat them with kid gloves because of 'cultural respect'.
It will resemble a shanty town in no time.
Repeat until fade.
You don't think immigration has caused some degree of unemployment in some sectors, where homegrown graduates could have been nurtured?
Your link's not working.
If immigration generates growth then it also creates jobs. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that overall it has no effect, but we can't say that for every immigrant with a job there's a British person who loses out.
On more than one occasion I have seen Roma walk past the local charity shop and pick up every single item left outside the door as donations. Didn't even break stride, like it was the most natural thing in the world to do. They will be filling the bins at home pretty quick after they have sifted through it.
Good luck on educating them on how things should work, you will need it if you try.
Be someone else if not them, the charity shops tell you not to leave donations outside.
The Daily Mail is of course in full scare mongering mode, but I am struggling to see what positives mass immigration from these two countries will cause, but I can see a lot of negatives.
If anyone thinks there will be any positives then let us know. I guess Big Business will be happy as lots of cheap labour to keep wages down.
Several hours later, not one person has posted a positive impact of this new wave of immigration
Am I right in saying that already 100k Rumanians have already arrived in the UK, that is the ones that had been given a visa due to having a job here.
Now if the population of Rumania is about 6 million, how many at present have gone to the more better off EU countries like Sweden, Finland, Denmark, France and Germany with a pre offer of employment? Are they going in roughly equal numbers to other EU countries or are they all bee-lining straight for the UK?
Am I right in saying that already 100k Rumanians have already arrived in the UK, that is the ones that had been given a visa due to having a job here.
Now if the population of Rumania is about 6 million, how many at present have gone to the more better off EU countries like Sweden, Finland, Denmark, France and Germany with a pre offer of employment? Are they going in roughly equal numbers to other EU countries or are they all bee-lining straight for the UK?
If they all come here, then you can go to Romania as it will be depopulated. You can probably get land super cheap and live as the Lord of Transylvannia.
Comments
This line comes out literally every time someone mentions racism/xenophobia. Why do we have such a hard time accepting that some (not all) of the anti-immigrant debate is driven by irrational prejudice?
That doesn't mean that everyone who questions immigration is a racist, it simply means that xenophobia is a part of the debate. This desire to try and eliminate it from the discussion is a nonsense.
So when you've driven all the 'foreigners' out and still find the country suffering from unemployment, lack of public services, high taxes, high house prices and low wages, which group will you drive out next?
and if people are prejudiced thats up to them this is a democracy and people can hold whatever views they want for whatever reason
So you're saying that uncontrolled immigration keeps house prices down, unemployment down, taxes down, wages higher than they would be..? That is what you're saying.
Who said they can't? There's a difference between saying people are entitled to hold whatever irrational prejudices they like, and saying that we should actually form policies on the basis of that prejudice.
I dont see how we'd be thrown out for saying no to Romania & Bulgaria.
We've already done plenty for the EU by accomodating approx 2 million Poles and making their lives significantly better than in Poland. I think we've done more than enough for Europe to warrant us saying no this time and not be penalised in any way.
I'm not saying anything, I'm asking a question.
There's plenty of evidence that the immigration associated with the 2004 enlargement generated extra growth for the economy. You have to balance that against the extra strain on public services and the impact on jobs, but at best it's an extremely complicated issue for which there aren't any easy answers.
Even if we do come down on the anti-immigration side in that debate, though, the impact of "economic migrants" on the welfare system is still grossly overstated. It's not even close to being the biggest issue facing the country at present, yet it's never off the political agenda.
It's almost as if they see ukip as the presentable public face of their own policies and desires isn't it? Can't be that though, they would never try to deceive now would they...
And you know that for a fact, or maybe just made it up?
the other thread on the latest observer polls showed votes were coming equally from the tories and labour
On with the evidence - I'd like to see it. It's possible that growth increased a bit (as it usually does year on year).
I've seen some reports that say unemployment wasn't affected, wages did not decrease - frankly, I'd be amazed if either wasn't affected. Jobs have not been on the increase since the recession, and if wages weren't driven down, there'd be no economic sense for the EU immigrants.
What is the biggest issue then - if not economy, wages, unemployment etc.
I'm not against economic migrants - they're needed in some capacity to fill the gaps.
There's a National Institute for Economic and Social Research study which is often quoted in this context - it indicates that the immigration from the 2004 accession generated an extra 0.38% of GDP up until 2009. Like I say, you have to balance that against other factors such as public services and employment. I'm not going to overstate the point - immigration, like anything else, has to be managed. It's possible to have damaging immigration, but there has to be some objective evidence presented if we want to come to that conclusion in an individual case like immigration from the 2004 enlargement..
The economy and unemployment are obviously the main issues affecting the country at present, but they're not problems caused by immigration. Even when we identify some negative effect of immigration on unemployment it's relatively small.
You don't think immigration has caused some degree of unemployment in some sectors, where homegrown graduates could have been nurtured?
Your link's not working.
They'll be given housing.
They'll live like savages.
They'll be noisy and dirty
They'll give you a beating if you complain.
The council won't dare do anything because these people will claim their 'uman rights'.
You'll move out, as will almost all other decent natives.
More Romanians will move in and it will become a 'Romanian Area' with constant violence, drunkenness and general sh!ttery
The police will treat them with kid gloves because of 'cultural respect'.
It will resemble a shanty town in no time.
Repeat until fade.
If immigration generates growth then it also creates jobs. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that overall it has no effect, but we can't say that for every immigrant with a job there's a British person who loses out.
Link should work now.
Be someone else if not them, the charity shops tell you not to leave donations outside.
Several hours later, not one person has posted a positive impact of this new wave of immigration
cheap labour.
Now if the population of Rumania is about 6 million, how many at present have gone to the more better off EU countries like Sweden, Finland, Denmark, France and Germany with a pre offer of employment? Are they going in roughly equal numbers to other EU countries or are they all bee-lining straight for the UK?
If they all come here, then you can go to Romania as it will be depopulated. You can probably get land super cheap and live as the Lord of Transylvannia.
..is ok to the individuals/parties involved but isnt exactly beneficial to the nation as a whole.
Whilstever there is an abundance of foreign workers, wages stay lower for everyone. It means that you are poorer.
There is no reason anyone should hire you if you do the same work, same hours but demand higher pay. It just makes no sense.