What about the kids? Like it or not there will be gay kids in these schools who may need support but will be turned away. Don't they matter? Aren't they important?
And of course the major problem in all of his, what on earth does promotion even mean in this context?
I don't think they are saying if there is a homosexual child in the school she/he will be shunned and told to keep their mouth shut, This act (or part of it) only relates to certain aspects of the schools activities.
I think by promotion they mean things like distributing leaflets about homosexual relationships or carrying out activities or workshops as they do these days. It states discussion can still take place, but only I guess if its raised. I know many parents would want this for their child, regardless of the child's feelings.
Most middle class parents do live in glass houses you know!, such things do not happen to them.
It really does depend what type of school it is. If its independent they have far more powers. And the official line is often not what takes place in reality. Unspoken rules and what not.
I'm homosexual and I have no problem if their policy really is objective discussion about it, as that is the fairest way to treat it.
Anything subjective, which is the same as "promoting" one view or an opposing view is discriminatory and serves no-one.
My only fear is that in practice the school's policy might be applied differently depending on the circumstances; with heterosexuality being treated as "normal" and homosexuality as "something most people don't do".
When would that ever come up in lessons anyway? Schools are there to teach things like maths and English and sciences, not relationships and airy-fairy stuff.
It would be discussed in PSHE - Personal and Social Health Education.
It would impinge on, say, the choice of books for the English curriculum - you couldn't have something that had a positive slant on gay men or lesbians.
I don't think they are saying if there is a homosexual child in the school she/he will be shunned and told to keep their mouth shut, This act (or part of it) only relates to certain aspects of the schools activities.
I think by promotion they mean things like distributing leaflets about homosexual relationships or carrying out activities or workshops as they do these days. It states discussion can still take place, but only I guess if its raised. I know many parents would want this for their child, regardless of the child's feelings.
Most middle class parents do live in glass houses you know!, such things do not happen to them.
That is broadly the effect though, especially if the teachers are afraid to confront issues of homophobic bullying or a student confiding in them for fear of breaching this 'promotion' rule.
I don't think they are saying if there is a homosexual child in the school she/he will be shunned and told to keep their mouth shut, This act (or part of it) only relates to certain aspects of the schools activities.
I think it's vague enough for homophobes to use it to 'push' heterosexuality as normality
I think by promotion they mean things like distributing leaflets about homosexual relationships or carrying out activities or workshops as they do these days.
What kind of schools do you frequent? I have never heard about schools (or indeed gay men or lesbians) 'handing out leaflets' promoting homosexuality or having workshops doing the same.
That is broadly the effect though, especially if the teachers are afraid to confront issues of homophobic bullying or a student confiding in them for fear of breaching this 'promotion' rule.
As I said elsewhere, it could impinge on the choice of book for English, or perhaps a discussion on human rights, or even HIV ?
That is broadly the effect though, especially if the teachers are afraid to confront issues of homophobic bullying or a student confiding in them for fear of breaching this 'promotion' rule.
In reality its likely over top level staff would be involved in promoting the non promotion, teachers move from school to school and are not going to stand by and watch bullying take place, regardless.
I think it's vague enough for homophobes to use it to 'push' heterosexuality as normality
Well that is the general stance in nearly everything at the moment, and I think it will be like that for many, many years.
What kind of schools do you frequent? I have never heard about schools (or indeed gay men or lesbians) 'handing out leaflets' promoting homosexuality or having workshops doing the same.
Its common practice, they don't so much promote it, but talk about it like it is normal, when to these schools it is not. This could be seen as promotion of it.
Why can't they discuss it anyway? It's common enough these days, there are plenty of gay celebrities, for instance.
Because that could be a form of promotion.
So you think MOST parents don't want homosexuality discussed, or promoted in mythical leaflets or workshops ?
Well I know most parents would prefer their child was not homosexual, even if they don;t know it or no one likes to admit it.
Please don't judge other people by your own rather obvious views on the subject.
Im not middle class, but I have observed them and reached that conclusion.
I don't think they are saying if there is a homosexual child in the school she/he will be shunned and told to keep their mouth shut, This act (or part of it) only relates to certain aspects of the schools activities.
I think by promotion they mean things like distributing leaflets about homosexual relationships or carrying out activities or workshops as they do these days. It states discussion can still take place, but only I guess if its raised. I know many parents would want this for their child, regardless of the child's feelings.
Most middle class parents do live in glass houses you know!, such things do not happen to them.
Actually the policies generally say that staff must not promote homosexuality at all. Not just in class but in general. To me that suggests that staff almost certainly would have to shun a gay kid who comes looking for help or else they could find themselves in trouble.
And of course there is no definition of what promotion means nor is there any definition of what objective discussion means. So potentially anything could end up covered by these rules against promotion.
I couldn't care less about the sensibilities of middle class parents.
Actually the policies generally say that staff must not promote homosexuality at all. Not just in class but in general. To me that suggests that staff almost certainly would have to shun a gay kid who comes looking for help or else they could find themselves in trouble.
And of course there is no definition of what promotion means nor is there any definition of what objective discussion means. So potentially anything could end up covered by these rules against promotion.
I couldn't care less about the sensibilities of middle class parents.
They are not going to shun, what happens then is it gets out and the schools image is damaged. Schools work endlessly to prevent this.
Well, no, it isn't the school's choice. They have to abide by Equalities Law, and this quite clearly breaks it
This can be bypassed with different loopholes, especially in a school. I would also not expect that "law" to remain unchanged, changes are likely to occur to weaken it.
They are not going to shun, what happens then is it gets out and the schools image is damaged. Schools work endlessly to prevent this.
Of course they're going to shun because if it ever gets out that they talked to a gay kid and gave them advice then they could well find themselves without a job.
Of course they're going to shun because if it ever gets out that they talked to a gay kid and gave them advice then they could well find themselves without a job.
You're quite naive aren't you?
No not really, I will just say I am "in the know".
It puzzles me the irony of the Conservative/people in power in institutions, who always go on about not wanting to promote homosexuality...very funny, considering most of the promotion over the ages in the media of homosexuality has been, for example tory's being caught with their rent boys, or church people with pinecones or potatoes up their arses etc etc.
This can be bypassed with different loopholes, especially in a school
Could you be more specific? I work with schools for an education authority and am a school governor and clerk of 25 years' standing, so I'd be interested to hear what loopholes you think can be exploited by bigots
Im not homophobic but surely the curriculum should be centred on education rather than promoting homosexuality or heterosexuality for that matter
Is it "promoting" heterosexuality learning about the wives of Henry VIII?
Is it "promoting" homosexuality by explaining how and why Alan Turning died?
There's a who raft of basic knowledge that could be described as "promoting" a sexuality, but things that are critical to an education. It's not about handing out leaflets saying "I'm gay and you should be too!".
Just like Section 28 they are not defining what 'promoting' actually means and that will have the same effect that it had then (and is having now in Russia). It is an effective and cynical way to shut down any recognition/discussion of gay people or the issues surrounding being gay because people simply don't know what is allowed and what is not. So, as happened before, teachers will say nothing at all about it - which is just what the proposers want.
Just like Section 28 they are not defining what 'promoting' actually means and that will have the same effect that it had then (and is having now in Russia). It is an effective and cynical way to shut down any recognition/discussion of gay people or the issues surrounding being gay because people simply don't know what is allowed and what is not. So, as happened before, teachers will say nothing at all about it - which is just what the proposers want.
Yes, it is rather ill defined isn't it? Probably intentionally so, so the net can be cast wide.
Yes, it is rather ill defined isn't it? Probably intentionally so, so the net can be cast wide.
AFAIK, no-one was actually prosecuted for Section 28 - it was to an extent an unenforceable act that acted more as a warning and a general direction - and appalling prejudice - than anything else
Yes, it is rather ill defined isn't it? Probably intentionally so, so the net can be cast wide.
Exactly - it was designed to stop people from saying anything to do with homosexuality. It worked in many respects. Hateful piece of legislation and it's tragic that schools are trying to bring something similar into their establishments.
Comments
I don't think they are saying if there is a homosexual child in the school she/he will be shunned and told to keep their mouth shut, This act (or part of it) only relates to certain aspects of the schools activities.
I think by promotion they mean things like distributing leaflets about homosexual relationships or carrying out activities or workshops as they do these days. It states discussion can still take place, but only I guess if its raised. I know many parents would want this for their child, regardless of the child's feelings.
Most middle class parents do live in glass houses you know!, such things do not happen to them.
It really does depend what type of school it is. If its independent they have far more powers. And the official line is often not what takes place in reality. Unspoken rules and what not.
Anything subjective, which is the same as "promoting" one view or an opposing view is discriminatory and serves no-one.
My only fear is that in practice the school's policy might be applied differently depending on the circumstances; with heterosexuality being treated as "normal" and homosexuality as "something most people don't do".
It would be discussed in PSHE - Personal and Social Health Education.
It would impinge on, say, the choice of books for the English curriculum - you couldn't have something that had a positive slant on gay men or lesbians.
That is broadly the effect though, especially if the teachers are afraid to confront issues of homophobic bullying or a student confiding in them for fear of breaching this 'promotion' rule.
I think it's vague enough for homophobes to use it to 'push' heterosexuality as normality
What kind of schools do you frequent? I have never heard about schools (or indeed gay men or lesbians) 'handing out leaflets' promoting homosexuality or having workshops doing the same.
Why can't they discuss it anyway? It's common enough these days, there are plenty of gay celebrities, for instance.
So you think MOST parents don't want homosexuality discussed, or promoted in mythical leaflets or workshops ?
Please don't judge other people by your own rather obvious views on the subject.
As I said elsewhere, it could impinge on the choice of book for English, or perhaps a discussion on human rights, or even HIV ?
In reality its likely over top level staff would be involved in promoting the non promotion, teachers move from school to school and are not going to stand by and watch bullying take place, regardless.
Yes, that's the general idea, but schools never "promoted" homosexuality anyway, that was the fevered imagination of Conservative politicians
.............
Actually the policies generally say that staff must not promote homosexuality at all. Not just in class but in general. To me that suggests that staff almost certainly would have to shun a gay kid who comes looking for help or else they could find themselves in trouble.
And of course there is no definition of what promotion means nor is there any definition of what objective discussion means. So potentially anything could end up covered by these rules against promotion.
I couldn't care less about the sensibilities of middle class parents.
They are not going to shun, what happens then is it gets out and the schools image is damaged. Schools work endlessly to prevent this.
Well, no, it isn't the school's choice. They have to abide by Equalities Law, and this quite clearly breaks it
This can be bypassed with different loopholes, especially in a school. I would also not expect that "law" to remain unchanged, changes are likely to occur to weaken it.
Of course they're going to shun because if it ever gets out that they talked to a gay kid and gave them advice then they could well find themselves without a job.
You're quite naive aren't you?
No not really, I will just say I am "in the know".
Well forgive me for not being willing to take your word for it.
As you wish.
Could you be more specific? I work with schools for an education authority and am a school governor and clerk of 25 years' standing, so I'd be interested to hear what loopholes you think can be exploited by bigots
From...?
Is it "promoting" heterosexuality learning about the wives of Henry VIII?
Is it "promoting" homosexuality by explaining how and why Alan Turning died?
There's a who raft of basic knowledge that could be described as "promoting" a sexuality, but things that are critical to an education. It's not about handing out leaflets saying "I'm gay and you should be too!".
Yes, it is rather ill defined isn't it? Probably intentionally so, so the net can be cast wide.
AFAIK, no-one was actually prosecuted for Section 28 - it was to an extent an unenforceable act that acted more as a warning and a general direction - and appalling prejudice - than anything else
Exactly - it was designed to stop people from saying anything to do with homosexuality. It worked in many respects. Hateful piece of legislation and it's tragic that schools are trying to bring something similar into their establishments.