This has nothing to do with the original point. Missing 10 episodes altogether is not the same as listening to them without the visual element.
Of course it is. It's all about consistency.
Listening to a story (no visuals) and watching it (visuals and soundtrack) are not the same whatever you claim.
You may well form an opinion about a story you've listened to and that's fine.
But to suggest that your brain receives all of the same information about a story that you just hear rather than one that you see and hear would have scientists who deal with sensory research laughing so hard they'd be p!$$ing themselves.
Listening to a story and watching it are not the same whatever you claim.
They are to me. How you can claim that listening to a story and not listening to it are the same because there's no visual element baffles me.
You may well form an opinion about a story you've listened to and that's fine.
But to suggest that your brain receives all of the same information about a story that you just hear rather than one that you see and hear would have scientists who deal with sensory research laughing so hard they'd be p!$$ing themselves.
Frankly, I don't give a toss. I'll form my own opinions based on whatever criteria I choose. If you want to limit yourself by applying a narrow mindset, fine.
I'm beginning to wonder whether you can actually read.
I never said that you couldn't have an opinion about audio stories, nor that you have to watch everything broadcast to have an opinion.
My point has always been that, if you're going to judge something, it should be done on a consistent basis.
So, if you going to make a judgement on the relatives strengths of all 5 seasons of the New Series it should be consistent.
If someone has watched:-
+ All of Season One
+ 5 episodes of Season Two
+ 8 episodes of Season Three
+ All of Season Four
+ 3 episodes of Season Five
they can't express a consistent opinion about how they would rank the seasons, because they haven't seen all 13 episodes in all of the seasons.
So, they might rank the seasons like this:-
01) Season One
02) Season Three
03) Season Two
04) Season Three
05) Season Five
There's nothing wrong with them doing that. But they haven't made a judgement about Seasons 2, 3 and 5 in the same way that they did for Seasons One and Four because they haven't seen all the episodes in the other Seasons.
If they were to watch the 8 episodes they missed it Season Two for example they might that decide that that was the best season and rank it in first place.
Why should I bother - nothing you're saying has anything to do with the original point.
You're also forgetting that it is possible to listen to the soundtracks of episodes that exist. My first exposure to the Reign Of Terror came through the soundtracks and I then got to watch the existing episodes and my opinion on it didn't change at all. I've also listened to all of The Crusade and watched/listened to it as well and my opinions have remained unmoved.
Clearly you are unable to do this but some of us clearly can.
Why should I bother - nothing you're saying has anything to do with the original point.
You're also forgetting that it is possible to listen to the soundtracks of episodes that exist. My first exposure to the Reign Of Terror came through the soundtracks and I then got to watch the existing episodes and my opinion on it didn't change at all. I've also listened to all of The Crusade and watched/listened to it as well and my opinions have remained unmoved.
Clearly you are unable to do this but some of us clearly can.
What an unbelievably rude answer. I shall now watch every single comment you and Ting make about any episode, and the moment you mention anything visual, whether it be monster design, set design, acting etc, I shall ram this post up your jacksy and I daresay Rita will too.
What an unbelievably rude answer. I shall now watch every single comment you and Ting make about any episode, and the moment you mention anything visual, whether it be monster design, set design, acting etc, I shall ram this post up your jacksy and I daresay Rita will too.
Oh well I can't wait for that - what an exciting life you must lead.
What an unbelievably rude answer. I shall now watch every single comment you and Ting make about any episode, and the moment you mention anything visual, whether it be monster design, set design, acting etc, I shall ram this post up your jacksy and I daresay Rita will too.
Well gslam2 doesn't appear to make very many comments about stories but I did find this about The Visitation.
Who can forget Matthew Waterhouse's ever so convincing performance as he trips over in the woods.
Also the 'pitched' battle in the Manor House as the android vaguely shuffles around the room in a less than urgent manner.
Of course, he'd still have been able to comment on those details just by listening to the soundtrack alone, wouldn't he?
Can I just try and put forward a polite and balanced viewpoint on the whole audio/visual debate.
I think it comes down to two things. What story you like and what type of story it actually is. Everybody sees things differently, what one person might like on audio, they may not like on video and vice versa.
I think from my point of view that if I'd listened to The Tomb Of The Cybermen on Audio before it's rediscovery I wouldn't have thought it as good as it eventually was on video. On the other hand, The Space Pirates, which I really don't like, I couldn't imagine that being better at all. Even the single surviving episode is dull and listening to it on audio isn't much better.
The Massacre, another of my pet hates, I think that story would probably benefit from being seen on video. With the whole doppelganger thing going on, I get the feeling it would come across better if I could see it.
Can I just try and put forward a polite and balanced viewpoint on the whole audio/visual debate.
I think it comes down to two things. What story you like and what type of story it actually is. Everybody sees things differently, what one person might like on audio, they may not like on video and vice versa.
I think from my point of view that if I'd listened to The Tomb Of The Cybermen on Audio before it's rediscovery I wouldn't have thought it as good as it eventually was on video. On the other hand, The Space Pirates, which I really don't like, I couldn't imagine that being better at all. Even the single surviving episode is dull and listening to it on audio isn't much better.
The Massacre, another of my pet hates, I think that story would probably benefit from being seen on video. With the whole doppelganger thing going on, I get the feeling it would come across better if I could see it.
My original point wasn't whether audio was better or worse than visual nor whether or not you could form an opinion based on audio alone.
It was simply that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone is not identical to one formed by watching visual medium and listening to sound. No more, no less.
Take away the visuals and you miss things like Adric's unconvincing trip and the android shuffling around in The Visitation as mentioned in my post above. Colours, set design, special effects, monster design, facial expressions etc do not come across on audio so there's a whole level of detail missing if you listen to a story on audio alone.
I'm quite amazed that anyone would try and argue with that.
My original point wasn't whether audio was better or worse than visual nor whether or not you could form an opinion based on audio alone.
It was simply that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone is not identical to one formed by watching visual medium and listening to sound. No more, no less.
Take away the visuals and you miss things like Adric's unconvincing trip and the android shuffling around in The Visitation as mentioned in my post above. Colours, set design, special effects, monster design, facial expressions etc do not come across on audio so there's a whole level of detail missing if you listen to a story on audio alone.
I'm quite amazed that anyone would try and argue with that.
But that's clearly because you have such a limited mind.
But that's clearly because you have such a limited mind.
Rita - don't bother, this post shows it's a waste of time. It's shocking to me that people can think that such a visually propelled series as Who can still be appreciated as fully when those visuals are not there, to the extent that an audio-only story can be compared 100% accurately to a story remaining in its entirety. It's nothing to do with having a limited imagination, blah blah, yes we can all visualise an audio story, but that's the point, it's our own visualisation and not that which was actually presented.
Maybe I've completely misunderstood these posts and all I'm supposed to be looking at is literally "the story" - but if so a) I'll retract all my choices and would have to reevaluate, and b) anybody who has criticised acting, direction, monster design, effects, etc, should do too. In the meantime I suppose glam can have his/her/its moment of fun, very amusing and all that.
Can I just try and put forward a polite and balanced viewpoint on the whole audio/visual debate.
I think it comes down to two things. What story you like and what type of story it actually is. Everybody sees things differently, what one person might like on audio, they may not like on video and vice versa.
I think from my point of view that if I'd listened to The Tomb Of The Cybermen on Audio before it's rediscovery I wouldn't have thought it as good as it eventually was on video. On the other hand, The Space Pirates, which I really don't like, I couldn't imagine that being better at all. Even the single surviving episode is dull and listening to it on audio isn't much better.
The Massacre, another of my pet hates, I think that story would probably benefit from being seen on video. With the whole doppelganger thing going on, I get the feeling it would come across better if I could see it.
Certainly episode 2 of the Space Pirates isn't any better on audio or TV!
I'd be surprised if the historicals are that different because they don't go in for a huge amount of visual trickery so it's almost like listening to a radio play.
I think my key point is that we are talking about the 60's series which really aren't that dependent on what you see on screen.
The same ease of comparison might not be the case for the more visual stories of the 70's and 08's.
Given that too many black-and-white episodes of DW as fans would like them to
(except as soundtracks on cassette or CD, or photo-and-audio reconstructions),
it is not impractical to use the latter to judge missing or partially missing stories -
without soundtracks, etc., how else could badly affected stories be rated, today?
Plus, I once met a man on the underground, who had just bought the latest DW release on video -
he was quite a fan of the series, and so this was not the first time he had shopped for videos of it.
BUT there was something striking about this gentleman - he was blind. He went to HMV with his guide-dog.
So clearly this man did not let the fact he could not see monsters or hazardous events, spoil his enjoyment. :cool:
Then again, he might just as easily have had ordinary sight as a child, but become blind (somehow) as an adult -
so if he watched DW as a child, he could use his memories as back-up, when watching DW whilst blind!
My original point wasn't whether audio was better or worse than visual nor whether or not you could form an opinion based on audio alone.
It was simply that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone is not identical to one formed by watching visual medium and listening to sound. No more, no less.
Take away the visuals and you miss things like Adric's unconvincing trip and the android shuffling around in The Visitation as mentioned in my post above. Colours, set design, special effects, monster design, facial expressions etc do not come across on audio so there's a whole level of detail missing if you listen to a story on audio alone.
I'm quite amazed that anyone would try and argue with that.
I'm actually trying not to argue with anyone!!!!:D
Personally I don't see the point of listening to audio to stories that already exist, why would you?! I was more referring to the missing stories and what episodes I thought may or may not be better if they were ever to be rediscovered.
Certainly episode 2 of the Space Pirates isn't any better on audio or TV!
I'd be surprised if the historicals are that different because they don't go in for a huge amount of visual trickery so it's almost like listening to a radio play.
I think my key point is that we are talking about the 60's series which really aren't that dependent on what you see on screen.
The same ease of comparison might not be the case for the more visual stories of the 70's and 08's.
And as I said above, it was the 60's stories I was referring to, though I'm glad we agree on The Space Pirates at least!
Given that too many black-and-white episodes of DW no longer exist in any form
(except as soundtracks on cassette or CD, or photo-and-audio reconstructions),
it is not impractical to use the latter to judge missing or partially missing stories -
without soundtracks, etc., how else could badly affected stories be rated, today?
Plus, I once met a man on the underground, who had just bought the latest DW release on video -
he was quite a fan of the series, and so this was not the first time he had shopped for videos of it.
BUT there was something striking about this gentleman - he was blind. He went to HMV with his guide-dog.
So clearly this man did not let the fact he could not see monsters or hazardous events, spoil his enjoyment. :cool:
Then again, he might just as easily have had ordinary sight as a child, but become blind (somehow) as an adult -
so if he watched DW as a child, he could use his memories as back-up, when watching DW whilst blind!
Given that too many black-and-white episodes of DW no longer exist in any form
(except as soundtracks on cassette or CD, or photo-and-audio reconstructions),
This statement seems somewhat self contradictory. If the stories still exist as soundtracks or reconstructions, they clearly don't 'no longer exist in any form'. They don't exist in their original form, but that is slightly different.
Your statement seems somewhat self contradictory. If the stories still exist as soundtracks or reconstructions, they clearly don't 'no longer exist in any form'. They don't exist in their original form, but that is slightly different.
Oops, sorry - I do have a bad habit of confusing people.
The episodes no longer exist, as originally filmed and broadcast (before being wiped )
but they do exist in other forms (soundtracks and photos) that are 'better than nothing'.
I once met a man on the underground, who had just bought the latest DW release on video -
he was quite a fan of the series, and so this was not the first time he had shopped for videos of it.
BUT there was something striking about this gentleman - he was blind. He went to HMV with his guide-dog.
So clearly this man did not let the fact he could not see monsters or hazardous events, spoil his enjoyment. :cool:
Then again, he might just as easily have had ordinary sight as a child, but become blind (somehow) as an adult -
so if he watched DW as a child, he could use his memories as back-up, when watching DW whilst blind!
Personally I don't see the point of listening to audio to stories that already exist, why would you?! I was more referring to the missing stories and what episodes I thought may or may not be better if they were ever to be rediscovered.
Exactly. If all the missing episodes were suddenly to be rediscovered tomorrow I suspect a large number of people who have listened to them on audio only would revise their opinion on some of the episodes.
They may find that the visuals enhance their enjoyment of the story or they may find that they detract from it.
Whichever is the case I find it hard to believe that every person who has listened to the audios would find their opinions on all 108 missing episodes completely unchanged after seeing the visual episodes.
I did try to make that point earlier. I also wonder if Rita's Kabin would suggest that deaf people can't venture an informed opinion of the stories if they have to watch with subtitles.
I did try to make that point earlier. I also wonder if Rita's Kabin would suggest that deaf people can't venture an informed opinion of the stories if they have to watch with subtitles.
Well, at least deaf people can SEE the monsters and cliff-hangers!
I did try to make that point earlier. I also wonder if Rita's Kabin would suggest that deaf people can't venture an informed opinion of the stories if they have to watch with subtitles.
Have you actually read any of my posts?
I never said that people couldn't form an opinion based on audio alone.
I never said that deaf people couldn't form an opinion either.
All I said was that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone and one formed from watching a visual picture with an audio soundtrack are different.
It's a very simple point to understand. You may not agree with it, that's your perogative.
I never said that people couldn't form an opinion based on audio alone.
I never said that deaf people couldn't form an opinion either.
All I said was that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone and one formed from watching a visual picture with an audio soundtrack are different.
It's a very simple point to understand. You may not agree with it, that's your perogative.
It's obvious that the people who are arguing with us haven't really read our opinions properly, as neither of us are having a go or complaining about anybody or anything - both of us are on the same page here I think, ie we've just stated our own opinion that its very hard to judge 2 stories on a level playing field if you have everything to hand on one, and only the audio on another. Really, sometimes I think that stating that there are often clouds in the sky could start a hate-filled campaign against that person on this bloody forum!!
It's obvious that the people who are arguing with us haven't really read our opinions properly, as neither of us are having a go or complaining about anybody or anything - both of us are on the same page here I think, ie we've just stated our own opinion that its very hard to judge 2 stories on a level playing field if you have everything to hand on one, and only the audio on another. Really, sometimes I think that stating that there are often clouds in the sky could start a hate-filled campaign against that person on this bloody forum!!
Lol!
I thought it was quite a simple concept really.
You may want to check out the Tenth Planet thread......
Comments
Of course it is. It's all about consistency.
Listening to a story (no visuals) and watching it (visuals and soundtrack) are not the same whatever you claim.
You may well form an opinion about a story you've listened to and that's fine.
But to suggest that your brain receives all of the same information about a story that you just hear rather than one that you see and hear would have scientists who deal with sensory research laughing so hard they'd be p!$$ing themselves.
Why should I bother - nothing you're saying has anything to do with the original point.
You're also forgetting that it is possible to listen to the soundtracks of episodes that exist. My first exposure to the Reign Of Terror came through the soundtracks and I then got to watch the existing episodes and my opinion on it didn't change at all. I've also listened to all of The Crusade and watched/listened to it as well and my opinions have remained unmoved.
Clearly you are unable to do this but some of us clearly can.
What an unbelievably rude answer. I shall now watch every single comment you and Ting make about any episode, and the moment you mention anything visual, whether it be monster design, set design, acting etc, I shall ram this post up your jacksy and I daresay Rita will too.
Oh well I can't wait for that - what an exciting life you must lead.
I do actually, yes. Doesn't stop me wanting to bang to rights rude little people like you
Well gslam2 doesn't appear to make very many comments about stories but I did find this about The Visitation.
Of course, he'd still have been able to comment on those details just by listening to the soundtrack alone, wouldn't he?
I think it comes down to two things. What story you like and what type of story it actually is. Everybody sees things differently, what one person might like on audio, they may not like on video and vice versa.
I think from my point of view that if I'd listened to The Tomb Of The Cybermen on Audio before it's rediscovery I wouldn't have thought it as good as it eventually was on video. On the other hand, The Space Pirates, which I really don't like, I couldn't imagine that being better at all. Even the single surviving episode is dull and listening to it on audio isn't much better.
The Massacre, another of my pet hates, I think that story would probably benefit from being seen on video. With the whole doppelganger thing going on, I get the feeling it would come across better if I could see it.
My original point wasn't whether audio was better or worse than visual nor whether or not you could form an opinion based on audio alone.
It was simply that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone is not identical to one formed by watching visual medium and listening to sound. No more, no less.
Take away the visuals and you miss things like Adric's unconvincing trip and the android shuffling around in The Visitation as mentioned in my post above. Colours, set design, special effects, monster design, facial expressions etc do not come across on audio so there's a whole level of detail missing if you listen to a story on audio alone.
I'm quite amazed that anyone would try and argue with that.
But that's clearly because you have such a limited mind.
Rita - don't bother, this post shows it's a waste of time. It's shocking to me that people can think that such a visually propelled series as Who can still be appreciated as fully when those visuals are not there, to the extent that an audio-only story can be compared 100% accurately to a story remaining in its entirety. It's nothing to do with having a limited imagination, blah blah, yes we can all visualise an audio story, but that's the point, it's our own visualisation and not that which was actually presented.
Maybe I've completely misunderstood these posts and all I'm supposed to be looking at is literally "the story" - but if so a) I'll retract all my choices and would have to reevaluate, and b) anybody who has criticised acting, direction, monster design, effects, etc, should do too. In the meantime I suppose glam can have his/her/its moment of fun, very amusing and all that.
Certainly episode 2 of the Space Pirates isn't any better on audio or TV!
I'd be surprised if the historicals are that different because they don't go in for a huge amount of visual trickery so it's almost like listening to a radio play.
I think my key point is that we are talking about the 60's series which really aren't that dependent on what you see on screen.
The same ease of comparison might not be the case for the more visual stories of the 70's and 08's.
Given that too many black-and-white episodes of DW as fans would like them to
(except as soundtracks on cassette or CD, or photo-and-audio reconstructions),
it is not impractical to use the latter to judge missing or partially missing stories
without soundtracks, etc., how else could badly affected stories be rated, today?
Plus, I once met a man on the underground, who had just bought the latest DW release on video -
he was quite a fan of the series, and so this was not the first time he had shopped for videos of it.
BUT there was something striking about this gentleman - he was blind.
So clearly this man did not let the fact he could not see monsters or hazardous events, spoil his enjoyment. :cool:
Then again, he might just as easily have had ordinary sight as a child, but become blind (somehow) as an adult -
so if he watched DW as a child, he could use his memories as back-up, when watching DW whilst blind!
I'm actually trying not to argue with anyone!!!!:D
Personally I don't see the point of listening to audio to stories that already exist, why would you?! I was more referring to the missing stories and what episodes I thought may or may not be better if they were ever to be rediscovered.
And as I said above, it was the 60's stories I was referring to, though I'm glad we agree on The Space Pirates at least!
Trying my best on that one!!!!
This statement seems somewhat self contradictory. If the stories still exist as soundtracks or reconstructions, they clearly don't 'no longer exist in any form'. They don't exist in their original form, but that is slightly different.
Oops, sorry - I do have a bad habit of confusing people.
The episodes no longer exist, as originally filmed and broadcast (before being wiped
but they do exist in other forms (soundtracks and photos) that are 'better than nothing'.
What do you all make of THIS?
Exactly. If all the missing episodes were suddenly to be rediscovered tomorrow I suspect a large number of people who have listened to them on audio only would revise their opinion on some of the episodes.
They may find that the visuals enhance their enjoyment of the story or they may find that they detract from it.
Whichever is the case I find it hard to believe that every person who has listened to the audios would find their opinions on all 108 missing episodes completely unchanged after seeing the visual episodes.
I did try to make that point earlier. I also wonder if Rita's Kabin would suggest that deaf people can't venture an informed opinion of the stories if they have to watch with subtitles.
Well, at least deaf people can SEE the monsters and cliff-hangers!
Have you actually read any of my posts?
I never said that people couldn't form an opinion based on audio alone.
I never said that deaf people couldn't form an opinion either.
All I said was that an opinion formed from listening to audio alone and one formed from watching a visual picture with an audio soundtrack are different.
It's a very simple point to understand. You may not agree with it, that's your perogative.
It's obvious that the people who are arguing with us haven't really read our opinions properly, as neither of us are having a go or complaining about anybody or anything - both of us are on the same page here I think, ie we've just stated our own opinion that its very hard to judge 2 stories on a level playing field if you have everything to hand on one, and only the audio on another. Really, sometimes I think that stating that there are often clouds in the sky could start a hate-filled campaign against that person on this bloody forum!!
Lol!
I thought it was quite a simple concept really.
You may want to check out the Tenth Planet thread......
Ooh, that sounds like i really shouldn't, but now I'm tempted...!