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Seeking body language cat experts.
Background before I get to my question.
Me and my family have been dog lovers, and many were cat haters because of disruption to gardens. This all changed for me when a cat adopted me, a male black cat who must have been at least 11 and the story about him is elsewhere in this forum, he died 4 years ago and I was distaught.
I since have got two beautiful cats that I have had since 8 weeks old, a black Tom and a female cross between tortie and Calico. They will be 2 in April, had all their jabs, been neuterd, chipped etc. However, I am a beginner of having cats from kitten age.
This is about my male cat, there has never been problems with my female cat.
I am aware that if you give them too much fuss they will bite and put claws out, but not actually hurt you.
But what is it about when they do a louder, more gutteral miaow and thump you on the leg or shoes? Again, not claws out.
And when they do the miaow again and raise both paws at you and hiss? Again, no harm, but the pupils go wide and ears back.
This is a cat that will regularly sleep with me in bed, and will lie with me on the settee and put his head right up to be rubbed under the chin, and loves it when I pick him up and hug him.
Trouble is, I get nervous when he does his big guttarul miaow, stroke the top of his head and walk off, because I don't know what his mood is.
Any help please?
Me and my family have been dog lovers, and many were cat haters because of disruption to gardens. This all changed for me when a cat adopted me, a male black cat who must have been at least 11 and the story about him is elsewhere in this forum, he died 4 years ago and I was distaught.
I since have got two beautiful cats that I have had since 8 weeks old, a black Tom and a female cross between tortie and Calico. They will be 2 in April, had all their jabs, been neuterd, chipped etc. However, I am a beginner of having cats from kitten age.
This is about my male cat, there has never been problems with my female cat.
I am aware that if you give them too much fuss they will bite and put claws out, but not actually hurt you.
But what is it about when they do a louder, more gutteral miaow and thump you on the leg or shoes? Again, not claws out.
And when they do the miaow again and raise both paws at you and hiss? Again, no harm, but the pupils go wide and ears back.
This is a cat that will regularly sleep with me in bed, and will lie with me on the settee and put his head right up to be rubbed under the chin, and loves it when I pick him up and hug him.
Trouble is, I get nervous when he does his big guttarul miaow, stroke the top of his head and walk off, because I don't know what his mood is.
Any help please?
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ETA The pupils widening, ears flat and hissing are the signs of fear or anger. He's obviously not afraid of you so I think I'm right about the above.
Someone once said (and I can't remember the actual quote) words to the effect that we are are masters to a dog but servants to a cat. They will have it their way.
But he miaows at me big style as if he wants something. He will follow me doing it so I'm not sure that's the case. He follows me and then punches my legs or rises up and hisses, having got my attention.
It's me that walks away, and he follows me.
I'll have a think.
ETA There's a poster here called wilhemina who gives excellent advice. Let's hope she sees your post. Whatever the reason I'm sure it's not serious. He's just being him. Fickle and demanding.
Do you mean that your male cat follows you around, thumps your leg & then rises up & hisses at you, then you walk away. Or does he do this when you are petting him?
It is quite common for cats to lash out in the middle of a petting session which they seem to be enjoying (& have even initiated) but after a few minutes or even seconds, they seem to turn on you. This is because, to the cat, it is not just a petting session but more an exchange of scents. Cats communicate largely by scent as they have scent glands around their face, mouths, between ears & eyes, along the flanks & at the base of their tails. They rub these areas on objects & people to put their own scent there & also to pick up the scent of others. It creates a sort of communal smell, makes them feel they belong & lays claim to a territory. But when people rub/stroke their cats, sometimes it goes on too long for the cat & feels abnormal & wrong so they get worried & do something to make it stop, i.e. swipe at you! It doesn't happen all the time & these same cats may still happily sit on your lap & enjoy a cuddle & stroke. So you just have to watch for the warning signs & stop before they get agitated.
If your cat is coming up to you & just swiping at your legs for no apparent reason, this is different. This could be caused by several factors ~ it may be attention-seeking behaviour, & he has learned that he will get a reaction from you by doing this, or it may be because the cat is in a state of predatory arousal (perhaps just come in from a hunting session?) or it may just be asking for food or something & has learned that you will react when he does the loud miaow & thumps you! It may also be conflict behaviour, i.e. the cat wants or needs something but perhaps perceives a danger in getting it so it asks, but then puts on a show of defensive aggression.
It is difficult to know exactly what is going on without seeing your cat. But what I would suggest is that you watch carefully for any signs that he is feeling uncomfortable ~ you already know the dilated pupils & laid back ears & a swishing tail is another sign. So stop & leave him alone at the first sign. You may also see muscle tension at the very start if you watch closely.
You say you got your cats at 8 weeks old. Do you know if they were exposed to human contact & handling before you got them? Sometimes if kittens are not handled gently by people at a very young age, they find it difficult to accept human touch & so you have to go slowly & carefully with them.
Did you play with your cats a lot when they were young, using your hands &/or feet? If so, this could be another reason why your body parts may be seen as something to use to practice predatory behaviour:eek:. Use fishing rod toys instead to keep the cat at a distance from you.
If you are relatively new to cats, it might be worth reading a few cat behaviour books. I can recommend "Why Does My Cat....?" by Sarah Heath, or "The True Nature of the Cat" by John Bradshaw, or Vicky Halls' books are very easy reading.
You really are a weath of cat knowledge
Glad if I can help in any way:). There are several people on this forum that are very knowledgeable about cat behaviour, so it's definitely worth asking about anything you don't understand.
But as a word of caution, we can only suggest things ~ & this is no substitute for proper advice from qualified behaviourists , especially in serious problems where an animal's health & well-being could be compromised.
Hard to say on that level of information but he may well just be reminding you who fits in where, hence he makes sure you are paying attention, then delivers his message.
Clearly he likes you and is generally comfortable with you and enjoys close contact on his terms but cohabiting cats who generally get on can also have these sort of interactions as one facet of their relationship, to ritualistically establish/maintining the hierarchy.
Being ritualistic is protective to both parties, i.e. going through the motions without any real intent of harm or malice per se, hence no personal or relationship damage is done or intended, just a message clearly conveyed (as long as you are a cat or speak cat
Should there be disputes over resources this pre-established heirachy enables those to be settled quickly and also without injury as each individual knows who fits in where so it can function as a safe shortcut for those potential disputes, in many cases to the point that often they don't overtly occur.
So you walking away from his challenge is your part in this ritual and he would appear to be happy with that. Were you to challenge back he might feel he needed to up the ante to make his point, or he might back down.
However given that he isn't using his teeth or claws and isn't spraying in frustration/stress I would suggest that either way changing your response, without individual assessment and advice from a knowlegeable behaviourist could create more problems that it might resolve.
In your position I would consult your vet to rule out the possibility of a health problem which could be causing him some type of intermittent pain, and then ask him to refer you to a behaviourist.
Your cats don't do it either because they do not have that type of personality/temperament and so are not that way inclined (like not all cats fight other cats), and/or because you don't let them take charge
None of mine have ever done it either for the same reasons but I have known people whose cats do.
It only happens with the combination of a cat that is that way inclined, (most aren't) together with a less and/or less experienced confident owner. Poblet tells us she(?) is inexperienced with cats and gets worried and walks away.
However advising Poblet to stands up to the cat at this point, without him having been seen and the whole situation fully assessed by a suitable behaviourist, including where the other cat fits in (who apparently isn't so inclined), could prompt an increased challenge with real aggression if the ritualistic challenge no longer worked, or trigger spraying due to frustration and stress at the established relationship status quo suddenly being rocked .
At two he is also getting to adulthood when status becomes more important.
To me this sounds much more likely to be behavioural that medical but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have the cat vet checked
I am now, but obviously I wasn't when I got my first cat - but I take your point.:D
I completely agree, to me this sounds like a situation which definitely needs a visit from a behaviourist who can assess and advise. Poblet will need to see her vet to get a referral, and he may want to see the cat to check it over first anyway (at least that was how it worked when I consulted a behaviourist, assume it's the same now?)
I have seen cats within a group doing all of this to each other.
This is the heirarchy posturing that the new-wave pet behavourists don't accept happens in domestic cats, and which those who have kept and studied groups of cats have seen regularly.
It happens in groups of cats usually when the two individuals are fairly close in the heirarchy, and often involves dominance mounting as well as lots of washing and licking.
It would tend to be the end sequence of posturing, and would probably be accompanied by hissing and spitting as the cats walked away from each other, and sometimes even yowling.
The trouble is, when humans don't quite get the body language right, they tend to end up either getting scratched or terrorised!
I think learning limits for individual cats when stroking, and removing oneself from the scene of the action before that limit is reached is helpful. I have known people to get quite badly and unexpectedly mauled by cats in exactly that situation.
Definitely one for the experienced!
I had replied to wilhemina's post using her quote, but it didn't post because DS went down. I'll try again.
Thank you for this, I will look out for the books.:)
My main concern is that I wouldn't like the behaviour to escalate. It is a while since he has 'bitten/scratched' because of too much fuss, I think I recognise the signs now, and he doesn't seem to mind when I fuss his sister so no competition there, they often both sleep on the bed together with me. They have a scrap, but it isn't serious.
I can quote an example that has just happened now. My worry is a 'chicken/egg' situation, I have anxiety issues at the moment and wonder if he is picking up on it, ie could it be my fault?
He just came in from outside, I was in the kitchen. He was walking around, loudly miaowing, ears slightly back, tail swishing. I stood and looked at him for a bit, he carried on, rubbed against a bag, then carried on looking at me. I crouched down but didn't stroke him, and he rubbed my legs, purring. I stood up again and he carried on miaowing etc. Now, evenings I always give them a treat, so I gave him one (a cat chewy stick) and he ate it, and he and I both went on our way. He didn't hiss, thump or anything, but I don't want to encourage him, as in give him a treat every time he does it.
Trouble is, I was nervous, wondering if he would hiss again, so I wonder if he picked up on that and that affected him? (Hence chicken/egg). I cannot express enough it isn't often, and he is 99% lovely, I just don't want it to escelate. Nip it in the bud.
Sorry for the long reply, but now you see why I was frustrated when DS went down after I wrote this before.:)
And thank you so much for all the suggestions and replies.
I would rather not take him to the vet if I can help it, he, like many, does not like it, and am not sure it is bad enough at this stage. However, my main issue is to understand, in order to deal with it.
His sister has never displayed any of this, apart from to him when they scrap.
If this is what it is, the good news is that it isn't personal. You just happen to be there & approach him, so he swipes at you. It can take quite a while for this emotional arousal to subside, so you need to leave him alone for a time.
Funnily enough, I had a scare the other day when I was out with my dogs & another dog came haring over towards my dogs. I'd already seen this dog on a lead prior to this & the owner made a big show of avoiding me, & the dog looked to me like a staffie/pit bull type, a big entire male. It was now off lead & was rushing towards me. My heart was in my mouth & various scenarios were rushing through my head thinking what I'd do if this dog attacked mine. As it happened Barney stood up to him, barked at him twice & the big woos ran away:). I got in the car with my dogs & went to the shops but even 15 to 20 mins later, I was still only just starting to calm down & my heart rate settling back to normal. It crossed my mind that this must be exactly how our pets feel when challenged by a another dog or cat. The emotional state does not subside as soon as the danger has passed ~ it takes quite a while until you start to feel safe again.
I think this sounds like what is happening with your cat. The best way to deal with it is to allow your cat some time out to calm down. Don't approach him. Yes you can put some treats on the floor at a distance from him, but walk away & let him eat them on his own. This will help him change from aggression mode to eating mode ~ I don't think, in this scenario, he will see it as being rewarded for the guttural miaows, if you do it quietly, at a distance from him & just move away from him slowly.
If you are still worried, then just quietly shut the door & leave the room. Give him time to calm down, then open the door, walk away & let him come to you.
The best thing to do if you can, is to avoid these scenarios, e.g. can you stop him having access to the window sill, can you limit his time outside to when other cats aren't around. Perhaps have a word with your neighbouring cat owners & see if there are times when their cats are usually indoors so you can let your cat out then? If you have a cat flap in your back door, just shut the inner kitchen door when he comes home & leave him to calm down before you let him back into the house?
My main worry would be that your other cat gets the brunt of this aggression ~ if this happens it can ruin their relationship because your other cat won't understand what's happening, & may either attack back, or become very fearful. So try to make sure they are kept apart at these times.
Hopefully when your cat becomes more confident about his territory, & starts to realise that other cats will leave him alone, he will start to calm down. At 2 years old he is just at social maturity (this happens much later in cats & long after they've reached sexual maturity) so as he grows up & begins to fit in to the territorial mix that is going on in your neighbourhood, then things will start to settle down.
If you are still worried, or don't think what i've described is what is happening, then please see your vet & ask for a referral to a behaviourist. If it is redirected aggression, the good news is that it is only likely to happen at specific times. i.e, after perceived challenges/danger from other cats, so is unlikely to escalate in its intensity towards you.
I hope this helps but I would stress again, see your vet if you are still concerned.
I wonder, TBH whether he feels stronger now and does not want to be attacked by another cat. Last year, he was attacked quite badly by another cat on his rear. I first noticed when he was very quiet and kept licking a part of his upper leg.
When I looked closer there was a hole that was bleeding and looked like it was going septic. At the time there were no vets open and it was Bank holiday, but I took him to the emergency vets, we had to wait ages.
When the vet looked at him, she said he had definitely been attacked, scratched and bitten by another cat. When she had to shave him, I was alarmed and upset by the amount of wounds he had under his fur, all red and lots of it, I cried. He had antibiotics and a flush out, and one of those collars. He wasn't allowed out for weeks bless him.
I wonder whether this may be significant? He has come in twice with fawn coloured fur in his paws, but no blood. Could he be trying to get his own back?
Must have been raped by that Gay cat now he seeks revenge.
I don't know if the same cat is around, or whether your cat is growing up & feeling more confident now, so trying again to claim territory. But whichever scenario, it will make your cat very agitated by the sight/sound/smell of other cats in areas that he regards as his own.
If you know where this other cat lives, it might be an idea to have a word with the owner to see if, between you, you can avoid future fights? Let each cat out at different times maybe?
Just as background, whilst cats are very territorial, their territories do not usually coincide with our garden boundaries! They claim ownership of a territory by scent-marking with urine, faeces & pheromones rubbed on head high objects. They regularly check out their territory boundaries, topping up their scent marks & checking out any scent marks left by other cats. From these scents they can tell a lot about the other cats in the area, e.g. the sex, approximate age, whether a female is in season & the health of the other cat. As the scent marks deteriorate over time, they can also tell how long ago another cat was there.
This strategy enables the neighbourhood cats to avoid each other & therefore avoid fights. It is usually only by mistake, or when a younger, more confident cat tries to take over territory owned by another cat, that they will actually confront each other & physically fight. And even before the fighting starts, there is usually a lot of posturing & howling to try to scare the other cat off & avoid risking injury by fighting.
Cats can "time-share" communal territories as they learn from observation & scent marks when other cats are likely to be there & when they are not around. Quite often the same cats that will fight each other in one area, will agree to avoid each other in different areas. If you are prepared to spend time on observation & do a bit of detective work, you will start to notice patterns in the appearances of other cats in your neighbourhood & this may help you to know the times that it is safer to let your cat out.
Lippincote's advice is good though ~ a feline behaviourist can visit your home, see your cat's body language & the lay out of your house & garden & explain to you what is going on. They can then advice you on what to do in your particular circumstances in a tailor-made programme.
Earlier, as usual, he was on my lap, lavishing attention, chin up to rub, nuzzling me etc.
When I went to the loo later on ( we all know their habits
He did exactly this, as normal, but gave a loud Miaow instead of his normal mewl, with lips curled back and wide eyes and he rubbed against me as he normally would, but jumped of the sink as if agitated.
I wonder if I had done some damage recently by giving a loud 'OY!' and pointing at him when he has reared up.
Anyway he was on the kitchen rug and attacked me again - I have to stress that claws and teeth weren't out. I said 'OY' and he circled me, then went outside.
I have been out with both of them tonight in the garden, and read up quite a lot on cat behaviour.
I played with them both with the laser thing, they love it. I wondered if I don't play with them enough. I then gave them treats as I normally would.
He seems to sit in the kitchen a lot, not far from the cat flap. I decided to give him little treats, from my hand, which he ate quite happily, purring. Ate from my hand, no problem. Then the treats had gone, I stayed in the same position, not moving. He then lashed out again, yowled and went outside.:( I have to say that he has never hurt me, but now I am well concerned. Vets, I think.:(
EDIT not sure if it is relevant, but next door had quite an old cat - age 16 - who kind of 'put them in their place' but they had great respect for each other and never fought, kind of shared the territory. She died a few weeks ago, so is no longer in next doors garden. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but could he be affected by this? He sits for ages in the garden looking next door.
BTW he has stopped lying with me on the bed.:(
I have a two year old Tom, a two year old Queen and one of their kittens, now about 8 months.
The biggest problem I have had has been with spraying, but I am to believe that this is more common amongst Toms where there are a few cats, not too much space and they are indoor cats (which is my story).
I live in a flat, but only really allow access to my bedroom and the living room - the rest of the flat is generally off limits to them as I don't want their dirty paws all over my kitchen and bathroom.
The living room however is pretty much 'their' room - I don't use it for anything other than exercising in and playing darts, and with no carpet, just painted tiles, and little furniture (what there is is mainly non-cloth except for one armchair) I pretty much let them do as they please in there, and can easily mop the floor to remove his sprayings.
Sammy (the Tom) was very reluctant to be petted, and was very very nervous of sudden movements, especially during the rare and short petting he would allow.
However, since his castration, he has calmed down a lot, and is much more interested in being petted, now coming to me several times a day instead of once or twice a week.
I say I am lucky because, in all the time I have had them, none of them have ever used threatening behaviour against me.
Delilah (the Queen) is completely the opposite to Sammy, in that she is utterly dependent upon me. When she had her litter, she had the first one, then came and woke me up to 'help' her with the rest, and I had to cut and tie the chords of three of them.
She is always near me or on my lap, always kissing my chin, and is just absolutely adorable.
Their daughter May is somewhere between the two in terms of character, she likes a good petting, but not too often.
Anyway, the reason I am posting here (sorry to hijack the thread) is to ask you wonderful 'experts' if there is anything I can do to reduce Sammy's spraying further.
There has been a reduction since his castration, but he sprays on my bed sometimes, which is not fun when you have not noticed till you get in bed and you can smell it.
Letting them out is not an option as I am on the 8th floor.
There is another spare room which I could let them into, but it is used for storage and as soon as he gets in there, he sprays all over everything, and so that is where I now leave things I want to protect (hence they are totally banned from that room now).
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Yes I agree that something is definitely up & it would be worth getting some professional help.
The games you play with them, whilst enjoyable, are really an outlet for their predatory behaviour. Cats need to practice the stalking, pouncing, chasing behaviours as they are small solitary predators so it is vital that they keep these skills honed ~ it makes no difference that they get all the food they need from us! I wonder if the anticipation of the games with you, or some frustration factor is creeping in?
Another factor could be his concern that another cat could come in the cat flap. He perceives this as a weakness in his territory boundaries so will spend time near the cat flap feeling agitated & apprehensive ~ & then you are nearest thing to take out his frustrations/fears on.
The loss of your neighbour's cat could well have upset the social dynamics of the neighbourhood feline territories & another cat could well be challenging him for the territorial rights to your neighbour's garden. Again, this would make him feel worried & agitated.
I think that a professional behaviourist (after vet check & referral) would be the best thing ~ at leat they could have a good look at what is going on & suggest practical ways to help you & your cat.
Best wishes ~ I hope it you can get it sorted out.
Urine spraying is a common problem, especially in male cats & worse in entire toms ~ but quite often, once it has started, castration isn't going to be enough to stop it. It is a territorial marking behaviour & is a very ingrained, instinctive behaviour.
Is your female cat spayed? If not, then it would be as well to do this as her seasons could trigger an increase in the spraying from the male.
I have to be honest ~ I think you are going to have a hard time stopping/controlling the spraying. Firstly, you need to thoroughly clean all areas where he has sprayed & I mean REALLY clean! Use a biological detergent first, then let the area to dry, then wipe it down with surgical spirits, leave to dry, then wash again with a biological detergent. Some surfaces could be damaged by surgical spirits so be careful! Wooden surfaces/furniture may be impossible to clean as the urine may have soaked in & can't be removed. Some fabric surfaces can't be thoroughly cleaned this way either, e.g. cushions, soft furnishings. You may need to dispose of & replace any heavily soiled items. If any hint of the urine remains, your cat will be motivated to top it up & even if you can't smell it, your cat will. You say your floor is tiled ~ you may need to pay special attention to the porous grouting.
The cause of the problem is probably, as you say, 3 cats in 2 rooms! Not enough space & the male cat wanting more territory. As he was entire for a time when the spraying started, it has probably now become a learned & instinctive behaviour despite the castration. However you won't be able to stop the spraying by any form of punishment ~ it is already caused by territorial worries, anxiety over space & stress so any form of punishment will only make the situation worse.
As you say, letting him into the second bedroom will immediately trigger the spraying in an attempt to claim that room as his own.
I appreciate that you live on the 8th floor so it is not possible to let him out but perhaps the lifestyle you are able to offer him is not ideal for this particular cat. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but all the time he is motivated to keep spraying within your flat, he's not a very happy lad. I have nothing against indoor only cats & some cats, especially females, are fine with an indoor lifestyle. But most owners compromise when keeping cats indoors by making sure the environment is very enriching, with lots of activities, hidey holes, separate quiet areas for each cat, lots of beds & resting places at different heights, climbing frames, perhaps an old log to scratch on. By confining 3 cats to 2 rooms, you are not in a position to offer the environmental enrichment that cats need.
I'm sorry that I cannot be more positive about the outcome of the spraying behaviour ~ perhaps others will have more ideas, & it could well be that the spraying will continue reduce since the castration ~ but it is really a "wait & see" game & thorough cleaning of all soiled areas.
Thanks wilhemina, for your honest reply.
To Be honest, I got Delilah first, and wanted a second cat based on the fact that in (I think) Switzerland, it is now considered animal cruelty to only have one animal of any given species.
I (perhaps stupidly) got Sammy on a bit of a whim, as I was in a pet shop out of town, and saw him, and just fell in love with him.
I had actually wanted two females, and to leave it at that.
Once I got him, I decided that I would let them have one litter before I got them both done (Delilah is about to be spayed very soon).
I was under the impression too, that many vets advocate keeping cats indoors, and besides, I REALLY don't want fleas in here (there has only been ONE flea in all the two years and I believe that one came in with Delilah lol).
As you say, I will need to thoroughly clean the areas where he sprays, which is not too difficult as I have adapted MOST of my flat to be easy to clean.
I hope to move out of here within the next year as this was never a permanent solution for a home, so I will be sure to move somewhere which would offer them more space, and MAY consider letting Sammy outside in the future.
I will also take further steps to make the second room ('their' room) more of a haven for them, so I will put a bit more suitable furniture in there, but don't get me wrong, it is far from bare in there, and apart from my weights and the fish tank, it is very much geared for them in there.
I could do better though.
Thanks again.
In answer to BigBHM, my male cat (neutered, but he was the 'leader') started spraying in the house when we got a male kitten (he had accepted a succession of other kittens during his long life but this was the last straw apparently). I used the correct cleaning processes, and also used Feliway - nothing stopped him. My vet said it is almost impossible to stop once it's become a habit because it's impossible to get rid of every trace of smell, and the only answer is to get rid of the cause of the stress (in my case, the kitten, in your case, lack of space). He was absolutely right, the spraying only stopped when we moved house and they had a massive garden and could avoid each other (fortunately didn't actually have to get rid of the kitten:cool:).