Personally I think that university has been co-opted into something that it wasn't really designed to be, which is another layer intended to get people into jobs. With so many people going to university these days the qualification is nowhere near as valuable as it used to be.
I think the university "experience" has been dulled by the inclusivity of it nowadays. I don't mean that uni should only be for rich people or connected people etc. just that it should be for the brightest and best - maybe the top 10% of college leavers. It's the fact that even someone with not great grades can get into uni that lessens the college learning - there's no competition, no pushing yourself to be the best. That is society's loss, because whilst the best may eventually rise, there's a lack of pressure for them to do so.
100% agree, brilliant post.
I went to university back in the days of having to get decent A-levels, when degrees were in real subjects, and lots of people didn't get in. I nearly didn't, I went through Clearing House in the end. 100% government grant, both for education and maintenance, which proves I wasn't from a privileged background.
I never have thought the university route to be The Only One though, it just was good for me (a variety of jobs in 3 careers, never unemployed, open mind [although I was open before I went]).
I went to university back in the days of having to get decent A-levels, when degrees were in real subjects, and lots of people didn't get in. I nearly didn't, I went through Clearing House in the end. 100% government grant, both for education and maintenance, which proves I wasn't from a privileged background.
I never have thought the university route to be The Only One though, it just was good for me (a variety of jobs in 3 careers, never unemployed, open mind [although I was open before I went]).
Needn't prove anything of the sort. I knew very middle class, privately educated sorts whose parents' accountants were able to so arrange their financial affairs over the 3 years of university that they technically met the criteria for full student grants.
I don't possess a degree and the most successful people I know don't either. The students I have encountered over my career have a huge sense of false entitlement about them just because they opted to study a course which usually ends up having no bearing in the actual career path they take. As someone said the degree as a whole has been devalued and has almost become the normal route, I would encourage more people to take up apprenticeships as this gives you real time work experience aswell as study.
Don't get me started on the discrimination against people who don't have degree's in the advertised UK job market. Can you imagine if someone posted a job and stated only non degree applicants. Yet it happens all the time to people who for whatever valid reason have chosen not to take the degree route!!!!!!
More large employers these days are taking people on after A levels and offering them the option of studying for a degree as well. They don't get the whole uni experience but they have a shedload of skills and experiences on their CV and a paid-for degree. There are more options than there used to be. which can only be a good thing. So employers are certainly beginning to recognise that potential is worth as much as a degree qualification. They wouldn't invest money into schemes like those if they didn't work.
Left school with 2 GCSEs in the mid 90s after hardly bothering to attend the final 2 years. Still no idea what I want to do when I grow up and have worked in various low/no skill jobs for the best part of 20 years. Drifting.
Edit: I'm not particularly unhappy or 'owt, re-reading that it sounded as though I was. I don't know, just struggled to find a real passion in life that I'd like to centre a career over so I took the easy way out when it comes to work and have gone for the simple options where I can switch off on the job. Could never see myself putting real effort into training or gaining qualifications for something that I wasn't that interested in just so that I could earn more. That's not me even if it might've been a wise choice in the eyes of many.
I didn't go to Uni. I left school after my A levels. I signed up with some temp agencies, and had a couple of interviews. I was offered one but really didn't like it, and didn't get the other. Then, like with most employment agencies, they stopped contacting me. I ended up applying for xmas temp work in retail, and was still there 2 years later!
Over Xmas 2010 I was off work with flu, and a temp job came up at my dad's place of work (a private bank, the job based in London) As they knew my dad, and I had applied for and had an interview for a different job there only a couple of months before, they kept the job for me. I signed up to the appropriate temp agency, and started there in January 2011. It was just a basic admin job, but to go from the wage I was on in retail, to that wage was a huge jump up. Then in the May I was offered a fixed term contract.
In the October, we were told our admin team was being disbanded (each area of the section of the bank we supported was now going to have a seperate admin team) and we'd all have to apply for the new roles. I was worried, being the newest and at the lowest level, I assumed that was me done for. Fortunately, three colleagues took voluntary redundancy, and I was given the choice of a level two job or a level three job. I took the level three job. So in the space of ten months, I went from a temp level one member of staff, to a permanent level three!
Despite the travel costs of getting into London from zone five in Kent, I am in a position to be saving up AND I don't have uni debts to pay off.
In terms of the responses from people about not going to uni, I went to a grammar school, so I was made to feel pretty rubbish about not wanting to go. One teacher even had me at the point of tears a couple of times, they gave me such a hard time about it. Of my group of friends, there was only three of us who didn't go, yet we have all been working since when we left school, and some who went to uni haven't even been able to get a job in the areas they have degrees in. I come from a family where no-one has gone to uni, so there was never any pressure from my parents or other family members to go. I don't really feel like I've missed out on the "uni life" as I'm someone who's quite happy in my own company.
I was lucky enough to have grown up in an era where it was easier to get work even without a degree.
I was planning to go to uni but personal circumstances meant I couldn't take the scholarship I had gained, so after A levels I went straight to working full time. (I had also been working part time since I was 15)
It meant that I ended up 3 years ahead of my friends who went to uni and was earning far more than them by the time they go their first jobs.
Also my career (IT Support) meant that I could learn everything on the job and gain my own work related qualifications while working too.
So all in all, not having a degree has not hindered me in terms of my career.
HOWEVER when I looked to emigrate to Oz, one of the things that stopped me was a lack of degree.
Not only did I not go to Uni, but I left school at 16 with a GCSE Gd 2 in English and eff all else.
I have my own business employing 5 people from which I draw a very healthy 6 figure salary and want for nothing.
That was, however, in 1976 when jobs were plentiful. My only period of unemployment was self imposed whilst I set up my company whilst a non-competition clause expired. I recruited for my old employer for years, and tended to avoid graduates as whilst academic, they were usually lacking in common sense.
Things are different these days, and not having a degree must be more of a problem. Unless the economy can produce 50% graduate level vacancies it's potty to aim for 50% of school leavers to go to Uni, however.
Sending nearly everyone to uni helps to keep the jobless totals down.
If half the people at uni were already in the jobs market the figures would be even more horrendous. As the number year by year increases of people who have a degree, so the value of having one decreases.
I went to college and did a course in travel and tourism. It got me 15 years of working in Foreign exchange bureaux, but mainly from the reference I got from the tutor for my first job. Everything I learned on the course is now redundant. (Flight reservations systems and airport codes? Who needs them now with everyone booking online using drop-down menus?)
I don't want a job in the travel industry (mainly because I'm no longer very interested in travelling) so my qualis from 1997 are useless anyway now. I'm currently in a temp job in a shop, and will have to look at more study with a view to a new career at 36, as I'm not really qualified for anything that's useful in the 21st century.
I really regret not doing A-levels and going to Uni and having a clearer plan at 16-18, but hey, you can't turn the clock back.
I left school at 16, 26yrs ago, only one friend went to university after college that I can recall. She was very academic, straight A's in everything. Most of us never even went to college! It was easier to get a job in those days so unless you wanted to be a doctor or a teacher, degrees just weren't necessary, we just left school and found work.
These days it's hard to even get a job in a supermarket so kids may as well go to college and then university to avoid the inevitable dole queue for as long as possible. Our kids have a depressing future.
I didn't go to uni and I'm lucky at 22 to have my own business employing 50 staff, looking back I probably would have liked to go to university but my qualifications just didn't cut it. It's not that I regret it but seeing a lot of my friends graduating I realised I missed out on the student lifestyle which I probably would have enjoyed
I left school at 16, 26yrs ago, only one friend went to university after college that I can recall. She was very academic, straight A's in everything. Most of us never even went to college! It was easier to get a job in those days so unless you wanted to be a doctor or a teacher, degrees just weren't necessary, we just left school and found work.
That's not correct at all. I left school at around the same time and you needed a degree for many career paths. For example, I couldn't have gone down my chosen career path without going to University and gaining a degree, and I doubt a few others couldn't have either e.g., Architects, Ring Theorists, Petrochemical Engineers, Microbiologists, Astrophysics, Theoretical Physicists et al.
When I left school in 1979 I was the same as the OP and university just didn't appeal plus academia wasn't for me either. I just wanted to get a job and earn some money, so I got a job in a bank and have been there for almost 34 years!
I've worked in branches, head office departments and am currently in IT where I've been for 10 years. I'm also a qualified project manager which I could utilise if I was made redundant. The company I joined has been floated on the stock market, merged with another bank and will soon be appearing on the high street under its own name again later this year (TSB) so I've seen plenty of changes and opportunities over the years. I only had 4 O levels when I left school and feel that I've done pretty well considering. I have a decent salary, pension and company car.
So, I'd say to the OP, go with your gut instinct - its usually right!
I think the university "experience" has been dulled by the inclusivity of it nowadays. I don't mean that uni should only be for rich people or connected people etc. just that it should be for the brightest and best - maybe the top 10% of college leavers. It's the fact that even someone with not great grades can get into uni that lessens the college learning - there's no competition, no pushing yourself to be the best. That is society's loss, because whilst the best may eventually rise, there's a lack of pressure for them to do so.
What about the people who excel while they are the actual university? I didn't get the top grades at GCSE or A level but I'm now predicted to graduate with a 1st. I'm competing with people who had those top grades whenever they were 16-18, but they don't always keep them up.
I didn't choose to go to university for the degree; I chose to go for the experience. I never knew what I wanted to be when I was growing up; so I chose to study English literature as i enjoy reading. I don't feel pressured by the debt of a student loan either. That can be sorted if and when I get employed.
I didn't go to uni. Coming from a working class area it wasn't something we were ever encouraged to do at school or prepared for, and I'd never considered it. I worked in a call centre for two years and saved up to move to London, interned for free at magazines and worked pretty much the rest of the time waitressing.
It was a massive struggle at the time I was interning, I had no spare time/money to explore London or enjoy myself, but eventually I was given a paid job and managed to work my way up. At the age of 22, I'd say I'm in the same position as someone who had been to university as well as interned once or twice, so while I'm in the same place, it was a lot harder to get there than someone who had been to uni.
Funnily enough, pretty much 90% of the interns we get are at uni, and the vast majority of them say that the only reason they went to uni was so they could move to London and be able to intern for free with their student loan to fund them.
Every one of my colleagues has a degree, but then again, my industry is very middle class. The only bad experiences I've with people looking down on me etc. is because of my background and not because I didn't go to uni.
I dropped out of an Economics degree after 8 months for numerous reasons. I've never regretted dropping out but I have regretted not taking one of the other courses I applied for. It has scuppered me career wise, I have to admit, but I did take all that into consideration when I decided to quit.
Funnily enough, when I left school I wanted to be a nurse. I did my A'Levels and got accepted to do the Project 2000. I ended up not taking my place because I fell pregnant, I deferred for a year, but I ended up not doing it because by then I felt my direction taking another course......hence the applying for an Economics degree.
Nowadays I work for peanuts in a juniorish role managing a team of carers on a dementia unit. I'm quite happy with what I'm doing sort of........but yes, wish I'd have chosen better with Uni courses when I had the chance.
I didn't go to university either and it does feel that way! I've had people tell me that I "should have a degree" because in theory, I'm capable of getting one. My excuse, other than not doing particularly well in my A-Levels (although I'd never intended to go), was that social anxiety issues meant that I didn't feel I'd fit in with the university lifestyle. Crowded lecture halls, followed by drinking and partying? No thanks.
Instead, I ended up doing an IT course at college and that was preferable because it was low level and there was no pressure.
I'm capable of getting one. My excuse, other than not doing particularly well in my A-Levels (although I'd never intended to go), was that social anxiety issues meant that I didn't feel I'd fit in with the university lifestyle. Crowded lecture halls, followed by drinking and partying? No thanks.
You could always become a mature student and there is no need to take part in the so called lifestyle, if you don't want want to.
Went to uni in 1990 after a year off working in various places. Ironically I would have been further up the career ladder and better off financially if I had stayed in my last job and not gone to Uni.
Luckily I left before the student loans came into force and grants were still active. Got a degree in History. Can't say it has fared me any better in the workplace
One think that really annoys me is people who put "university of Life" on their FB info. It only illustrates how much of a chip they carry about not going.
I would gently discourage my children from going to Uni unless it is vocational. My niece ,now 23, decided not to go and worked her way up from office junior to deputy accounts manager in advertising and earns a bomb.
She is the envy of all her Media studies graduate friends that are now saddled with debts and struggling to find work.
I went to Uni, in the mid 80's, but my husband didn't. He regrets going, as he works in the creative industries where demonstrable talent is valued above university degrees, and feels he could have progressed further and faster without a degree. He now earns six times my salary.
So, not going to Uni is very context-dependent: the era, and your preferred career can hugely impact on the value of attending Uni. The only aspect that doesn't alter is that attending Uni keeps your options open in the longer term, as it's easier to gain access to good quality retraining or further education leading to a career switch with a degree already in your hands.
Comments
100% agree, brilliant post.
I went to university back in the days of having to get decent A-levels, when degrees were in real subjects, and lots of people didn't get in. I nearly didn't, I went through Clearing House in the end. 100% government grant, both for education and maintenance, which proves I wasn't from a privileged background.
I never have thought the university route to be The Only One though, it just was good for me (a variety of jobs in 3 careers, never unemployed, open mind [although I was open before I went]).
Needn't prove anything of the sort. I knew very middle class, privately educated sorts whose parents' accountants were able to so arrange their financial affairs over the 3 years of university that they technically met the criteria for full student grants.
Don't get me started on the discrimination against people who don't have degree's in the advertised UK job market. Can you imagine if someone posted a job and stated only non degree applicants. Yet it happens all the time to people who for whatever valid reason have chosen not to take the degree route!!!!!!
Edit: I'm not particularly unhappy or 'owt, re-reading that it sounded as though I was. I don't know, just struggled to find a real passion in life that I'd like to centre a career over so I took the easy way out when it comes to work and have gone for the simple options where I can switch off on the job. Could never see myself putting real effort into training or gaining qualifications for something that I wasn't that interested in just so that I could earn more. That's not me even if it might've been a wise choice in the eyes of many.
But I got a job in one instead 43 years ago!
Over Xmas 2010 I was off work with flu, and a temp job came up at my dad's place of work (a private bank, the job based in London) As they knew my dad, and I had applied for and had an interview for a different job there only a couple of months before, they kept the job for me. I signed up to the appropriate temp agency, and started there in January 2011. It was just a basic admin job, but to go from the wage I was on in retail, to that wage was a huge jump up. Then in the May I was offered a fixed term contract.
In the October, we were told our admin team was being disbanded (each area of the section of the bank we supported was now going to have a seperate admin team) and we'd all have to apply for the new roles. I was worried, being the newest and at the lowest level, I assumed that was me done for. Fortunately, three colleagues took voluntary redundancy, and I was given the choice of a level two job or a level three job. I took the level three job. So in the space of ten months, I went from a temp level one member of staff, to a permanent level three!
Despite the travel costs of getting into London from zone five in Kent, I am in a position to be saving up AND I don't have uni debts to pay off.
In terms of the responses from people about not going to uni, I went to a grammar school, so I was made to feel pretty rubbish about not wanting to go. One teacher even had me at the point of tears a couple of times, they gave me such a hard time about it. Of my group of friends, there was only three of us who didn't go, yet we have all been working since when we left school, and some who went to uni haven't even been able to get a job in the areas they have degrees in. I come from a family where no-one has gone to uni, so there was never any pressure from my parents or other family members to go. I don't really feel like I've missed out on the "uni life" as I'm someone who's quite happy in my own company.
I was planning to go to uni but personal circumstances meant I couldn't take the scholarship I had gained, so after A levels I went straight to working full time. (I had also been working part time since I was 15)
It meant that I ended up 3 years ahead of my friends who went to uni and was earning far more than them by the time they go their first jobs.
Also my career (IT Support) meant that I could learn everything on the job and gain my own work related qualifications while working too.
So all in all, not having a degree has not hindered me in terms of my career.
HOWEVER when I looked to emigrate to Oz, one of the things that stopped me was a lack of degree.
I have my own business employing 5 people from which I draw a very healthy 6 figure salary and want for nothing.
That was, however, in 1976 when jobs were plentiful. My only period of unemployment was self imposed whilst I set up my company whilst a non-competition clause expired. I recruited for my old employer for years, and tended to avoid graduates as whilst academic, they were usually lacking in common sense.
Things are different these days, and not having a degree must be more of a problem. Unless the economy can produce 50% graduate level vacancies it's potty to aim for 50% of school leavers to go to Uni, however.
If half the people at uni were already in the jobs market the figures would be even more horrendous. As the number year by year increases of people who have a degree, so the value of having one decreases.
I don't want a job in the travel industry (mainly because I'm no longer very interested in travelling) so my qualis from 1997 are useless anyway now. I'm currently in a temp job in a shop, and will have to look at more study with a view to a new career at 36, as I'm not really qualified for anything that's useful in the 21st century.
I really regret not doing A-levels and going to Uni and having a clearer plan at 16-18, but hey, you can't turn the clock back.
These days it's hard to even get a job in a supermarket so kids may as well go to college and then university to avoid the inevitable dole queue for as long as possible. Our kids have a depressing future.
That's not correct at all. I left school at around the same time and you needed a degree for many career paths. For example, I couldn't have gone down my chosen career path without going to University and gaining a degree, and I doubt a few others couldn't have either e.g., Architects, Ring Theorists, Petrochemical Engineers, Microbiologists, Astrophysics, Theoretical Physicists et al.
I've worked in branches, head office departments and am currently in IT where I've been for 10 years. I'm also a qualified project manager which I could utilise if I was made redundant. The company I joined has been floated on the stock market, merged with another bank and will soon be appearing on the high street under its own name again later this year (TSB) so I've seen plenty of changes and opportunities over the years. I only had 4 O levels when I left school and feel that I've done pretty well considering. I have a decent salary, pension and company car.
So, I'd say to the OP, go with your gut instinct - its usually right!
Quofan
What about the people who excel while they are the actual university? I didn't get the top grades at GCSE or A level but I'm now predicted to graduate with a 1st. I'm competing with people who had those top grades whenever they were 16-18, but they don't always keep them up.
I didn't choose to go to university for the degree; I chose to go for the experience. I never knew what I wanted to be when I was growing up; so I chose to study English literature as i enjoy reading. I don't feel pressured by the debt of a student loan either. That can be sorted if and when I get employed.
It was a massive struggle at the time I was interning, I had no spare time/money to explore London or enjoy myself, but eventually I was given a paid job and managed to work my way up. At the age of 22, I'd say I'm in the same position as someone who had been to university as well as interned once or twice, so while I'm in the same place, it was a lot harder to get there than someone who had been to uni.
Funnily enough, pretty much 90% of the interns we get are at uni, and the vast majority of them say that the only reason they went to uni was so they could move to London and be able to intern for free with their student loan to fund them.
Every one of my colleagues has a degree, but then again, my industry is very middle class. The only bad experiences I've with people looking down on me etc. is because of my background and not because I didn't go to uni.
Funnily enough, when I left school I wanted to be a nurse. I did my A'Levels and got accepted to do the Project 2000. I ended up not taking my place because I fell pregnant, I deferred for a year, but I ended up not doing it because by then I felt my direction taking another course......hence the applying for an Economics degree.
Nowadays I work for peanuts in a juniorish role managing a team of carers on a dementia unit. I'm quite happy with what I'm doing sort of........but yes, wish I'd have chosen better with Uni courses when I had the chance.
I didn't go to university either and it does feel that way! I've had people tell me that I "should have a degree" because in theory, I'm capable of getting one. My excuse, other than not doing particularly well in my A-Levels (although I'd never intended to go), was that social anxiety issues meant that I didn't feel I'd fit in with the university lifestyle. Crowded lecture halls, followed by drinking and partying? No thanks.
Instead, I ended up doing an IT course at college and that was preferable because it was low level and there was no pressure.
You could always become a mature student and there is no need to take part in the so called lifestyle, if you don't want want to.
And there is the Open University.
http://www.open.ac.uk
Luckily I left before the student loans came into force and grants were still active. Got a degree in History. Can't say it has fared me any better in the workplace
One think that really annoys me is people who put "university of Life" on their FB info. It only illustrates how much of a chip they carry about not going.
I would gently discourage my children from going to Uni unless it is vocational. My niece ,now 23, decided not to go and worked her way up from office junior to deputy accounts manager in advertising and earns a bomb.
She is the envy of all her Media studies graduate friends that are now saddled with debts and struggling to find work.
So, not going to Uni is very context-dependent: the era, and your preferred career can hugely impact on the value of attending Uni. The only aspect that doesn't alter is that attending Uni keeps your options open in the longer term, as it's easier to gain access to good quality retraining or further education leading to a career switch with a degree already in your hands.