Oscar Pistorius Bail Hearing Begins

18788909293279

Comments

  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
    Forum Member
    sofialady wrote: »
    What I don't understand is shooting four bullets.. surely she would have cried out when one hit her.. I don't know what happens when a person gets shot because I've never been shot of course but just wondering if it could be expected that Reeva would at least scream when he opened fire once? and if it's an intruder, why would you need to shoot four times?

    Yes, this has occurred to me too. I am at a loss to explain it.
  • KathySparkKathySpark Posts: 2,439
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The same police that ran around telling everyone there were illegal steroids in the house? Or who said the neighbours lived 600m away and then changed it to 300m?

    Do we know how many houses are in the compound and how they are laid out. Surely if somebody 300m away head so much arguing then there where people living closer that must have heard it too.
  • LH1LH1 Posts: 2,394
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    KathySpark wrote: »
    Do we know how many houses are in the compound and how they are laid out. Surely if somebody 300m away head so much arguing then there where people living closer that must have heard it too.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-house-reeva-steenkamp-interactive

    This shows the compound and where the houses are situated in relation to each other.
  • franciefrancie Posts: 31,089
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    LH1 wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-house-reeva-steenkamp-interactive

    This shows the compound and where the houses are situated in relation to each other.

    Morning LH1, thanks for the link.
  • franciefrancie Posts: 31,089
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    KathySpark wrote: »
    Do we know how many houses are in the compound and how they are laid out. Surely if somebody 300m away head so much arguing then there where people living closer that must have heard it too.

    I should imagine if the area is quiet, particularly at that time of night/morning also, the weather was settled, it would be easy enough for sound to travel even 600 yards as originally claimed.
  • alsmamaalsmama Posts: 4,564
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    francie wrote: »
    I should imagine if the area is quiet, particularly at that time of night/morning also, the weather was settled, it would be easy enough for sound to travel even 600 yards as originally claimed.

    I was thinking about this. At the top of our street is a pub, which is 300 m from our house. I have never once heard any noise from this pub, not even in the summer when we have had the windows open and it has been late at night in our quiet village. My friend who lives three doors up from the pub often complains about the noise and shouting at closing time on a Saturday night so I know there is noise, but you can't hear it at 300m. I really don't believe a neighbour would have heard shouting at 300m or 600m.

    But from the map link posted above there are clearly closer houses. I wonder if anyone was in those. If so it doesn't look like they reported hearing anything.
  • tellywatcher73tellywatcher73 Posts: 4,181
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    Can't understand the charge of pre-meditated murder as that would require Oscar to have pre-planned the alleged screaming argument on the night, pre-planned the building works, pre-planned the ladder by the bathroom window...

    if you pick up a gun, walk into a different room and shoot then it is premeditated. It doesn't mean thinking and planning for months, it could be seconds. It just means that it is a deliberate act.
  • alsmamaalsmama Posts: 4,564
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    mazzy50 wrote: »
    I believe there are - I dare say these will be described when the case comes to trial.

    They already have haven't they? I read one report where he asked an ex gf to leave a party at his house, she wouldn't go so he closed the door on her. She had her foot in the door to stop him and the door bashed her leg. Doesn't quite give the same idea of domestic violence that the media would like.

    I have to say I'm not out to defend Pistorius, and I have no real opinion on what happened that night, but I hate how lots of "evidence" is being presented as fact to sway opinion one way or the other but just isn't true.
  • franciefrancie Posts: 31,089
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    alsmama wrote: »
    I was thinking about this. At the top of our street is a pub, which is 300 m from our house. I have never once heard any news from this pub, not even in the summer when we have had the windows open and it has been late at night in our quiet village. My friend who lives three doors up from the pub often complains about the noise and shouting at closing time on a Saturday night so I know there is noise, but you can't hear it at 300m. I really don't believe a neighbour would have heard shouting at 300m or 600m.

    We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.

    I also can't understand why the neighbour(s) would say they'd heard something if they hadn't, not much to gain I should imagine.
  • tellywatcher73tellywatcher73 Posts: 4,181
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    francie wrote: »
    We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.

    I would agree with you. In the summer, when my window is open at night, I can hear shouting from quite a distance. It usually depends on what direction it is coming from but I wouldn't say it was impossible to hear from 600 metres away.
  • Si_CreweSi_Crewe Posts: 40,202
    Forum Member
    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    Can't understand the charge of pre-meditated murder as that would require Oscar to have pre-planned the alleged screaming argument on the night, pre-planned the building works, pre-planned the ladder by the bathroom window...

    Seems like what you can't understand is actually the legal definition of "premeditation".

    You don't need to plan a murder like an episode of Columbo for it to be premeditated.
    You just have to have acted with the intent to kill somebody.

    I assume that the SA police are of the opinion that OP did act with the intent of killing somebody and, thus, it's a murder charge.
  • KathySparkKathySpark Posts: 2,439
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    LH1 wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-house-reeva-steenkamp-interactive

    This shows the compound and where the houses are situated in relation to each other.


    Thanks. Can't get a good look at it on my phone, will have a look when I get into the office
  • SeaBreezeSeaBreeze Posts: 125
    Forum Member
    If anyone wants live updates from the courtroom, they can be viewed here:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-bail-decision-live-coverage
  • KathySparkKathySpark Posts: 2,439
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    francie wrote: »
    I should imagine if the area is quiet, particularly at that time of night/morning also, the weather was settled, it would be easy enough for sound to travel even 600 yards as originally claimed.

    Quite possible. But would it be clear enough to know it was a man and women arguing and what about or could it be OP screaming for help or another house altogether. It all give cause for doubt in the witness statement. Also I can't see it properly but it looks like there were houses closer and there is no word of witnesses from any of these houses.
  • franciefrancie Posts: 31,089
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    SeaBreeze wrote: »
    If anyone wants live updates from the courtroom, they can be viewed here:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-bail-decision-live-coverage

    Thanks SeaB, had forgotten to bookmark it.
  • franciefrancie Posts: 31,089
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    KathySpark wrote: »
    Quite possible. But would it be clear enough to know it was a man and women arguing and what about or could it be OP screaming for help or another house altogether. It all give cause for doubt in the witness statement. Also I can't see it properly but it looks like there were houses closer and there is no word of witnesses from any of these houses.

    Who knows, perhaps some were away for the night etc. Only the trial evidence will confirm one way or another.
  • tvqueen1905tvqueen1905 Posts: 82,843
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Yes, this has occurred to me too. I am at a loss to explain it.

    me too
  • calico_piecalico_pie Posts: 10,060
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    danpro wrote: »
    I must have missed your comment. It feels like most people expect their behaviour to be the same as that of long term couples.

    Exactly this.

    Most people expect Pistorius to have reacted in the exact same way that they would react, based on their personality, experience and circumstances.

    Ignoring the fact that people's personalities, experience and circumstances can vary wildly.
  • alsmamaalsmama Posts: 4,564
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    francie wrote: »
    We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.

    I also can't understand why the neighbour(s) would say they'd heard something if they hadn't, not much to gain I should imagine.
    I would agree with you. In the summer, when my window is open at night, I can hear shouting from quite a distance. It usually depends on what direction it is coming from but I wouldn't say it was impossible to hear from 600 metres away.

    I would have agreed with you too until I worked out how far 600 or even 300m is and that in practice I don't hear anything from the high street at the top of our street. Give it a try, map out how far 300m is from your bedroom.
  • Department_SDepartment_S Posts: 4,918
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    KathySpark wrote: »
    Thanks. Can't get a good look at it on my phone, will have a look when I get into the office

    "Kathy. Have you prepared that report I asked you for for this morning?"

    "No John Im studying the layout of Oscar Pistorius's house and plot."

    :)
  • Agent KrycekAgent Krycek Posts: 39,269
    Forum Member
    Si_Crewe wrote: »
    Seems like what you can't understand is actually the legal definition of "premeditation".

    You don't need to plan a murder like an episode of Columbo for it to be premeditated.
    You just have to have acted with the intent to kill somebody.

    I assume that the SA police are of the opinion that OP did act with the intent of killing somebody and, thus, it's a murder charge.

    That for me is the main stumbling block with OPs story. Take away whether or not he intended to kill Reeva specifically in that moment, I can't see how he can argue away that he didn't intend to kill whoever was in that toilet, surely it's difficult to claim self defence as there was no threat, beyond him hearing some noise, could the locking of a toilet door (which she may have done on hearing him call out, intending to hide) be mistaken for the cocking of a gun ready to fire? (genuine question, I've no idea, never been round guns in my life)
  • JoTaylorJoTaylor Posts: 9,870
    Forum Member
    if you pick up a gun, walk into a different room and shoot then it is premeditated. It doesn't mean thinking and planning for months, it could be seconds. It just means that it is a deliberate act.

    "Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension"

    For me 4 gun shots covers the method of doing so - you're pretty sure that 4 shots such a small space would hit the person.
  • aggsaggs Posts: 29,458
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    cath99 wrote: »
    I think you're reading into it wrong to be honest. It suggests a legal form of increasing male hormones - which is what testosterone does illegally.

    Honestly, if anything like the IOC or drug sporting bodies raided the house of any top flight athlete, I'd be amazed not to see something like that found. I would imagine you could go to most of his competitors and find similar. It's a natural - and so legal - way of hormone boosting. Some of the sporting benefits without the nasty failing of drug tests and bans.

    Depending on where he was in his training cycle at the time, there is also the possiblity it is old stuff that has been hanging around for some time. Top athletes are very blase about phials and injections - some of them have even been known to keep the actual illegal stuff in the fridge next to the milk!

    Which I assume, would be the reason for the drug tests. Which is another thing, as an internation sportsperson, his blood and hormone profiles will be extremely well documented. If there was a spike from the normal levels, it will be easy to see.
  • calico_piecalico_pie Posts: 10,060
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    if you pick up a gun, walk into a different room and shoot then it is premeditated. It doesn't mean thinking and planning for months, it could be seconds. It just means that it is a deliberate act.

    So what would count as murder that was not premeditated, as opposed to manslaughter then?

    I thought premeditated required the person to have reasonably thought about what they were doing.

    If it was a violent argument where he started waving a gun around, and shot in the heat of the moment without really thinking about what he was doing, would that really pass as being premeditated in a court of law?
  • calico_piecalico_pie Posts: 10,060
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    francie wrote: »
    We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.

    I also can't understand why the neighbour(s) would say they'd heard something if they hadn't, not much to gain I should imagine.

    It would be interesting if they try to recreate this - while I agree sound carries more at night (or at least our hearing is more sensitive to sound in the dark), if it is a modern house, presumably with fairly decent double glazing, I wouldn't expect to hear sound.
This discussion has been closed.