All drama is character based. Great Sci Fi is populated by great characters. Babylon 5, one of the greatest pieces of sci fi ever, is an epic tale of space battles and politics, love and hate, destiny and many other themes. But it has loads of great characters. These characters go on a journey and develop during the story.
Bad characters = bad sci fi generally.
So to say it's character based is a lame excuse for weak story telling. Good drama in any genre should have good story AND good characters.
Lost dropped the ball with the story in the final season. Probably because to tell the story would have taken another three seasons as they had built up so much in the first five years.
They did a great job with the characters, pity the story they told with them was weak.
Probably because to tell the story would have taken another three seasons as they had built up so much in the first five years.
Thing is they KNEW they had 6 seasons in total to tell the story after season 3 (give or take a season). They announced an end date for the series, and, even with the messed up actor's strike short 4th series, they knew how long they had.
Actually thinking aback on it now, theres so much in the last season which just doesn't make sense... the whole thing with Sayid being 'evil'. Widmore coming back to the island only to be killed....The lighthouse thing. Too much time spent at that temple with that asian bloke..
He made a 'deal with the devil' (MIB) in order to see the one he loved. Richard Alpert was offered the same deal to kill Jacob so MIB could leave the island.
MIB:Sayid, if you'll do this for me... what if I told you that you could have anything you wanted. What if I said you can have anything in the entire world?
SAYID: I would tell you that the only thing I ever wanted, died in my arms, and I'll never see it again.
MIB: What if you could?
(conjecture)As Jacob was dead by the time Sayid was offered the deal possibly to help kill the candidates, as MIB couldn't do this directly. He certainly wanted Sayid to kill Desmond, and did get him to kill the Japanese guy in the temple.
edit:both Shannon and his wife Nadia died in his arms, so I guess he could have meant either of them, but I always figured it was Nadia that was the true love and Shannon was an island hookup, so don't really know why Shannon appeared in the purgatory bit with him.
He made a 'deal with the devil' (MIB) in order to see the one he loved. Richard Alpert was offered the same deal to kill Jacob so MIB could leave the island.
(conjecture)As Jacob was dead by the time Sayid was offered the deal possibly to help kill the candidates, as MIB couldn't do this directly. He certainly wanted Sayid to kill Desmond, and did get him to kill the Japanese guy in the temple.
edit:both Shannon and his wife Nadia died in his arms, so I guess he could have meant either of them, but I always figured it was Nadia that was the true love and Shannon was an island hookup, so don't really know why Shannon appeared in the purgatory bit with him.
But then, what was the outcome or payoff from that. Sayid killed the guy in the temple, but then became sort of 'good' again, and killed himself to save the others.
then he's in the afterlife bit with the others.
There little to no consquences to what happened. People killed other people, lots of people died, so what impact did him being 'infected' do...
It just seems so messy. Especially after the build up of Sayid being returned to life got.
But then, what was the outcome or payoff from that. Sayid killed the guy in the temple, but then became sort of 'good' again, and killed himself to save the others.
One of the fundamental themes of Lost is redemption. All through his life, right from being a little kid killing the chicken his brother(?) wouldn't, then being an Iraqi torturer, then working for Ben as an assassin, supposedly killing off people responsible for his wife's death, Sayid has only been a killer.
They took him to the blackest most unforgiving part of his soul and he saved Desmond, and saved the guys in the sub.
(Man I need to get out more, or start another rewatch!! )
you know they weren't dead the whole time right? so the Dallas analogy is rather flawed....
You know Pamela Barnes wasn't dreaming for all of Dallas, right? It was only one season worth of dreams that ended with Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower. It corresponds quite well with the Losties being in purgatory for season, so the Dallas analogy is rather apt.
Come now, the only way things like the smoke monster, and Alpert living forever would be to go down some sort of midichlorian route, or stick with having it a bit of a mythology type mystery.
I was hoping for an SF explanation, and I gather so were the writers. When Danielle said the smoke monster was a security system, that's what the writer thought at the time. There had been hints of time-travel from the start, which would be sufficient to explain Alpert.
I don't agree about midichlorians. That gets the level of explanation needed wrong.
Personally I like the look on people's faces who stopped watching after season 2 (when Ch 4 lost it to Sky) and tell them that they missed the time travel season. A concise scientific explanation was never coming.
I was one of them - it was actually part way through season 3. I think in the last episode we saw we learned what Jack's tattoo meant. It was the low point of the show, and I didn't miss it.
Although I did catch up to the end of season 5 on DVD, partly because so many people still raved about it. It did get better, although never as good as the hype. I'm not sure what you point about time travel is.
Not nikki and Paulo pointless, but not the finest episodes.
I quite liked the Nikki and Paulo episode. It was interesting to see things from a different perspective.
You know Pamela Barnes wasn't dreaming for all of Dallas, right? It was only one season worth of dreams that ended with Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower. It corresponds quite well with the Losties being in
purgatory for season, so the Dallas analogy is rather apt.
I just found it funny that for all those years they were saying that the Island isn't purgatory it wasn't. LA was instead. So they still did the storyline that everyone was saying it was right from the start, but could say that no it wasn't the Island.
Though I'd love to understand more what the Island was I actually loved the character journey.
My main criticism is the same one that I posted when it first went out when I'd stayed up all night to watch it live is that Ashes to Ashes did it better.
Well the island was purgatory as well , turns out the whispers were dead people like Michael who couldn't move on .
As I said, I've not watched the last season myself, but for example the Wikipedia summary for the first episode of season 6 was partly set in the flash-sideways timeline, which we eventually learn was an after-life.
As I said, I've not watched the last season myself, but for example the Wikipedia summary for the first episode of season 6 was partly set in the flash-sideways timeline, which we eventually learn was an after-life.
yeah the flash-sideways/purgatory stuff ran throughout the entire 6th season.
They did a great job with the characters, pity the story they told with them was weak.
The frustrating thing was that for the first four seasons it felt like a story worth telling. Sure we had some dull episodes, padding and general meandering but the idea of an island that was the location of weird experiments by a mysterious organisation called Dharma was actually quite interesting. Even more interesting was the science that went with it. For large parts of the second and third season much of the show seemed to be based on science theory (such as the Casimir effect).
I don't remember any show, ever, generating as much online research and theorising as Lost did during those two seasons.
But then it just threw that away and went for the mystical answers. To me, the mystical stuff is cheating. It's a statement that the writers didn't have a good, logical answer so Harry Potter the story and resolve it all with magic.
Utter cack. BSG is just as guilty of this. Two shows that promised so much.
Whilst technically true it isn't exactly set in that afterlife, just more like super flash-forwards to when the characters have died
The flash-sideways was the afterlife. Where else could they be when they're dead? It wasn't Heaven, it wasn't Hell. So, it was the afterlife, they were in a pugatorial state until they remembered their lives and moved on.
I was never that concerned about all of the theories, questions needing answering etc though it was fun to see some of the arguments that the fans that researched everything and watched each episode 10 times got into - I liked the characters and seeing how they were dealing with their situations at any given time.
So I was for a character based ending - but not the one that I got!! There are parts of the finale that I enjoy but the flash sideways as afterlife/purgatory felt like a cop out for me. It just seemed bizarre to indicate that, despite whatever came next for those that survived the Island, they would want/need to reconnect with their Island buddies to allow them to 'move on'.
And even though I was not a hardcore theorist and I let alot of the folklore go by for sake of the story as was, I was still let down by the amount left hanging.
I know that many, many people loved the ending and I did shed quite a few tears but - no....
Utter cack. BSG is just as guilty of this. Two shows that promised so much.
Although BSG did have a strong religious theme from the start. In the very first episode, the fate of the Olympic Carrier waxes and wanes according to Baltar's faith.
The flash-sideways was the afterlife. Where else could they be when they're dead? It wasn't Heaven, it wasn't Hell. So, it was the afterlife, they were in a pugatorial state until they remembered their lives and moved on.
No, no I'm not saying it isn't the afterlife. Just that to say that season 6 is set in the afterlife isn't true. It's like saying season 1 was set before they got on the plane.
to me all the seasons were 'set' on the Island, as that was the bulk of the story. Any kind of flashes were simply to build on the character.
You could feasibly watch the entire series with the flashes edited out and it would still be a good story. Just not a great one
No, no I'm not saying it isn't the afterlife. Just that to say that season 6 is set in the afterlife isn't true. It's like saying season 1 was set before they got on the plane.
to me all the seasons were 'set' on the Island, as that was the bulk of the story. Any kind of flashes were simply to build on the character.
You could feasibly watch the entire series with the flashes edited out and it would still be a good story. Just not a great one
Indeed, except maybe S4, which was back and forth between the island and the mainland. And that episode that was naughty and had flashbacks and forwards all mixed up together!
I'd be interested in watching it all in chronological order myself. Not sure that's possible what with stuff like Desmond jumping around!
I ultimately think the final was the very best example of extraordinary writing, and autricious writing. On one side, you have a group of charactors ending a journey and changing and learning from it. On another, a plot so full of holes and lets face it silly and lazy that it makes the whole thing bitter sweet. It's a bit like chocolate covered dung. You can't disguise the bitterness underneath, no matter how sweet the cover.
So I was for a character based ending - but not the one that I got!! There are parts of the finale that I enjoy but the flash sideways as afterlife/purgatory felt like a cop out for me. It just seemed bizarre to indicate that, despite whatever came next for those that survived the Island, they would want/need to reconnect with their Island buddies to allow them to 'move on'.
The experience on the island lead to the characters finding themselves, their place by being with these people and no longer being lost so I thought the ending fit perfectly.
The experience on the island lead to the characters finding themselves, their place by being with these people and no longer being lost so I thought the ending fit perfectly.
Poor Aaron. The best time of his life was obviously as a baby with Clare and Charlie.
My main problem with the final episode was that I'd stayed up all night to watch it live and I'd seen the purgatory/flash sideways story done better shortly before.
Poor Aaron. The best time of his life was obviously as a baby with Clare and Charlie.
Of course it wasnt. Not everyone on that afterlife was real. Baby Aaron wasn't real.
Real Aaron will grow up, live his life and eventually die. He will then have his on afterlife experience and share it with the people he shared the most significant part of his life with.
Comments
Bad characters = bad sci fi generally.
So to say it's character based is a lame excuse for weak story telling. Good drama in any genre should have good story AND good characters.
Lost dropped the ball with the story in the final season. Probably because to tell the story would have taken another three seasons as they had built up so much in the first five years.
They did a great job with the characters, pity the story they told with them was weak.
Thing is they KNEW they had 6 seasons in total to tell the story after season 3 (give or take a season). They announced an end date for the series, and, even with the messed up actor's strike short 4th series, they knew how long they had.
Urgh,...too frustrating.
He made a 'deal with the devil' (MIB) in order to see the one he loved. Richard Alpert was offered the same deal to kill Jacob so MIB could leave the island.
(conjecture)As Jacob was dead by the time Sayid was offered the deal possibly to help kill the candidates, as MIB couldn't do this directly. He certainly wanted Sayid to kill Desmond, and did get him to kill the Japanese guy in the temple.
edit:both Shannon and his wife Nadia died in his arms, so I guess he could have meant either of them, but I always figured it was Nadia that was the true love and Shannon was an island hookup, so don't really know why Shannon appeared in the purgatory bit with him.
But then, what was the outcome or payoff from that. Sayid killed the guy in the temple, but then became sort of 'good' again, and killed himself to save the others.
then he's in the afterlife bit with the others.
There little to no consquences to what happened. People killed other people, lots of people died, so what impact did him being 'infected' do...
It just seems so messy. Especially after the build up of Sayid being returned to life got.
One of the fundamental themes of Lost is redemption. All through his life, right from being a little kid killing the chicken his brother(?) wouldn't, then being an Iraqi torturer, then working for Ben as an assassin, supposedly killing off people responsible for his wife's death, Sayid has only been a killer.
They took him to the blackest most unforgiving part of his soul and he saved Desmond, and saved the guys in the sub.
(Man I need to get out more, or start another rewatch!!
I was hoping for an SF explanation, and I gather so were the writers. When Danielle said the smoke monster was a security system, that's what the writer thought at the time. There had been hints of time-travel from the start, which would be sufficient to explain Alpert.
I don't agree about midichlorians. That gets the level of explanation needed wrong.
I was one of them - it was actually part way through season 3. I think in the last episode we saw we learned what Jack's tattoo meant. It was the low point of the show, and I didn't miss it.
Although I did catch up to the end of season 5 on DVD, partly because so many people still raved about it. It did get better, although never as good as the hype. I'm not sure what you point about time travel is.
I quite liked the Nikki and Paulo episode. It was interesting to see things from a different perspective.
But they weren't in purgatory for a season! :eek:
Well the island was purgatory as well , turns out the whispers were dead people like Michael who couldn't move on .
As I said, I've not watched the last season myself, but for example the Wikipedia summary for the first episode of season 6 was partly set in the flash-sideways timeline, which we eventually learn was an after-life.
yeah the flash-sideways/purgatory stuff ran throughout the entire 6th season.
sorry - what ?
The frustrating thing was that for the first four seasons it felt like a story worth telling. Sure we had some dull episodes, padding and general meandering but the idea of an island that was the location of weird experiments by a mysterious organisation called Dharma was actually quite interesting. Even more interesting was the science that went with it. For large parts of the second and third season much of the show seemed to be based on science theory (such as the Casimir effect).
I don't remember any show, ever, generating as much online research and theorising as Lost did during those two seasons.
But then it just threw that away and went for the mystical answers. To me, the mystical stuff is cheating. It's a statement that the writers didn't have a good, logical answer so Harry Potter the story and resolve it all with magic.
Utter cack. BSG is just as guilty of this. Two shows that promised so much.
The flash-sideways was the afterlife. Where else could they be when they're dead? It wasn't Heaven, it wasn't Hell. So, it was the afterlife, they were in a pugatorial state until they remembered their lives and moved on.
So I was for a character based ending - but not the one that I got!! There are parts of the finale that I enjoy but the flash sideways as afterlife/purgatory felt like a cop out for me. It just seemed bizarre to indicate that, despite whatever came next for those that survived the Island, they would want/need to reconnect with their Island buddies to allow them to 'move on'.
And even though I was not a hardcore theorist and I let alot of the folklore go by for sake of the story as was, I was still let down by the amount left hanging.
I know that many, many people loved the ending and I did shed quite a few tears but - no....
No, no I'm not saying it isn't the afterlife. Just that to say that season 6 is set in the afterlife isn't true. It's like saying season 1 was set before they got on the plane.
to me all the seasons were 'set' on the Island, as that was the bulk of the story. Any kind of flashes were simply to build on the character.
You could feasibly watch the entire series with the flashes edited out and it would still be a good story. Just not a great one
Indeed, except maybe S4, which was back and forth between the island and the mainland. And that episode that was naughty and had flashbacks and forwards all mixed up together!
I'd be interested in watching it all in chronological order myself. Not sure that's possible what with stuff like Desmond jumping around!
Poor Aaron. The best time of his life was obviously as a baby with Clare and Charlie.
My main problem with the final episode was that I'd stayed up all night to watch it live and I'd seen the purgatory/flash sideways story done better shortly before.
Of course it wasnt. Not everyone on that afterlife was real. Baby Aaron wasn't real.
Real Aaron will grow up, live his life and eventually die. He will then have his on afterlife experience and share it with the people he shared the most significant part of his life with.