And yet it was in TCI where it was stated still "still exactly the same man" and in TNOTD where it is stated "you're the eleventh Doctor". So I guess it isn't that clear cut?
Personally I've always felt having a virtually completely changed personality makes you a different person. It's how we identify each other.
The same way a person with split perosnality disorder is multiple people
And yet it was in TCI where it was stated still "still exactly the same man" and in TNOTD where it is stated "you're the eleventh Doctor". So I guess it isn't that clear cut?
Personally I've always felt having a virtually completely changed personality makes you a different person. It's how we identify each other.
I've never seen at as having a completely different personality, but rather different aspects of the same personality coming to the fore. (If that makes sense)
I have seen the War Games and Two had no control over anything, his regeneration was a punishment.
Ten (very reluctantly) died saving someone who was a quiet hero in his own way, without wanting any praise. He was 100 times the hero that Ten was in that shocking episode, his tears were in sympathy, not self pity. Ten whined and seemed to try to make Wilf feel guilty :mad:! He moaned that he had so much more to give, as if he was more worthy of life. WTF making Wilf feel bad? Who was he to judge that he was more worthy than Wilf? In that episode, he certainly wasn't. Still he had nice hair, so that's ok.
It wasn't just regeneration that was retconned, but the idea that the Doctor is the ultimate selfless hero. Great example for children who looked up to the Doctor. Nine, on the other hand, was excellent in his last scene - pitch perfect - and he was only saving Rose .
Totally disagree with just about evrything you have said. The tenth Doctor was initialy reluctant to rescue Wilf but only because he knew that in doing so he would die and POSSIBLY regenerate, however once he made his mind up then he didn't hesitate and entered the chamber in order to save Wilf. I'm not suprised he didn't want to have to undergo a regenration as he himself explained earlier in the story it was not a very pleasent experience.
How has regenerating been retconned ? Just because it didn't happen straight away ? The third Doctor had been poisoned by radiation and was lost in the time vortex for weeks and only regenerated when he arrived back on Earth
Of course the Doctor is still the ultimate selfless hero, he had a choice, he could either walk away or save Wilf and what did he do ? He saved Wilf so actually it was a great example to children - put others before yourself. And just before he did sacrifice himself he actually said it was an Honour to do so, acknowledging Wilf's bravery and the part he played in defeating the Master
I've never seen at as having a completely different personality, but rather different aspects of the same personality coming to the fore. (If that makes sense)
I guess it depends on your interpretation of what makes someone them self. Personally I feel that if someone's personality changed as much as the Tenth Doctor suggested it could in the TCI - am I funny, smart, sexy etc- then I would say no they aren't the same person. All those kind of things are how people identify and relate to each other. What are the essential traits that make him the same person? I can only think of a handful of things and I'm sure if I listed them someone could find an example of one of the Doctors who wasn't like that. Do I see for example 9 in 10 or 10 and 9 in 11? A little but no more so than there might in relatives or people raised in the same culture.
I guess I feel kind meh about regeneration anyway. It's great that it allows the show to go on but I find it a bit of a daft concept and really can't see them all as the same person. They are just too different. I mean even something basic about how he looks just the interaction between him and other characters. You go from having granddaughter to having love interests in Rose and River. Would you have had Amy trying to kiss the Doctor if he still looked like the 1st Doctor?
I guess it depends on your interpretation of what makes someone them self. Personally I feel that if someone's personality changed as much as the Tenth Doctor suggested it could in the TCI - am I funny, smart, sexy etc- then I would say no they aren't the same person. All those kind of things are how people identify and relate to each other. What are the essential traits that make him the same person? I can only think of a handful of things and I'm sure if I listed them someone could find an example of one of the Doctors who wasn't like that. Do I see for example 9 in 10 or 10 and 9 in 11? A little but no more so than there might in relatives or people raised in the same culture.
I guess I feel kind meh about regeneration anyway. It's great that it allows the show to go on but I find it a bit of a daft concept and really can't see them all as the same person. They are just too different. I mean even something basic about how he looks just the interaction between him and other characters. You go from having granddaughter to having love interests in Rose and River. Would you have had Amy trying to kiss the Doctor if he still looked like the 1st Doctor?
I think this is why some would love to ret con regneration as an actual death, i.e not just a change of body & personality, but the loss of that paticular consiousness or soul.
I like to think that in the doctors head are multiple essences and with each regen, the current consciousness goes back inside the doctors mindscape and another comes to the fore, taking over the newly regenerated body.
I think I just like the idea that 10 is still inside 11's mind, doing a running commentary
I guess it depends on your interpretation of what makes someone them self. Personally I feel that if someone's personality changed as much as the Tenth Doctor suggested it could in the TCI - am I funny, smart, sexy etc- then I would say no they aren't the same person. All those kind of things are how people identify and relate to each other. What are the essential traits that make him the same person? I can only think of a handful of things and I'm sure if I listed them someone could find an example of one of the Doctors who wasn't like that. Do I see for example 9 in 10 or 10 and 9 in 11? A little but no more so than there might in relatives or people raised in the same culture.
I guess I feel kind meh about regeneration anyway. It's great that it allows the show to go on but I find it a bit of a daft concept and really can't see them all as the same person. They are just too different. I mean even something basic about how he looks just the interaction between him and other characters. You go from having granddaughter to having love interests in Rose and River. Would you have had Amy trying to kiss the Doctor if he still looked like the 1st Doctor?
Personally, I think you can compare regeneration to someone who you know very well go away for a while, and coming back having changed quite a lot. Their 'core personality' (Memories, most of their morals, relationships with people around them) is the same, but some of the lesser aspects of their personality hae changed. They may like new things, and have gone off some of the things they liked before, and they may even speak differently. Regeneration is essentially the kind of mental change someone would go through in several years happening over a few seconds/minutes + A complete physical change.
I have seen the War Games and Two had no control over anything, his regeneration was a punishment.
Ten (very reluctantly) died saving someone who was a quiet hero in his own way, without wanting any praise. He was 100 times the hero that Ten was in that shocking episode, his tears were in sympathy, not self pity. Ten whined and seemed to try to make Wilf feel guilty :mad:! He moaned that he had so much more to give, as if he was more worthy of life. WTF making Wilf feel bad? Who was he to judge that he was more worthy than Wilf? In that episode, he certainly wasn't. Still he had nice hair, so that's ok.
It wasn't just regeneration that was retconned, but the idea that the Doctor is the ultimate selfless hero. Great example for children who looked up to the Doctor. Nine, on the other hand, was excellent in his last scene - pitch perfect - and he was only saving Rose .
I was just thinking... if the Meta-Crisis Doctor used up one regeneration, and if the John Hurt Doctor is a past incarnation (and if the regeneration limit is still in effect), then it would actually make a lot of sense why Ten was so reluctant to regenerate; he'd be going into his last incarnation!
Wow...it'd be hard to miss the point of 10s touching final scene more.
He wasn't reluctant about anything, he said it was his honour to do it for Wilf.
He was raging at the circumstances, raging at the universe and, mostly, raging at himself for raging.
And it was mostly ironic anyway. Especially when he was talking to Wilf, there was no way he actually felt like he was a better person than wilf, just ironically running through what it'd actually would've been like if he was the kind of guy to sacrifice wilf so he could keep on living.
9 needed to be strong for Rose. T
en had an old soldier with him who had seen it all before, he didn't need to be strong for anyone.
And I agree with most of the others. Regeneration should be something to be dreaded, something to fear.
It should be as feared as much as we fear dying.
Otherwise if it's too easy you get ludicrous situations like time lord's trying on new bodies just for the hell of it *cough* Romana *cough*
Regeneration should never be easy. It won't be for 11 either.
Sorry, I saw it and I missed nothing. We'll have to just disagree, because I just interpret it completely differently. He spent too long indulging in self pity with no consideration for the person who would have to carry the guilt of being the cause of his 'death'.
Also, my mother, who volunteers with child cancer patients, would heartily disagree with the idea that someone who's had 900 years of the most exciting life should be so scared of dying and complain that it wasn't enough! As she said, even the children who died in pain and crying had a reason to - they were children. However, many of them were courage itself, even trying to be brave in front of their parents because they worried how bad they'd feel. They were able to talk to my mother because she's experienced at what she does. Nobody's obliged to brave at such a moment, but how impressive it is when they are and few people in fiction have less right to complain, even if they fear it'll be their last body (of several) .
My mother watched stony faced, then treated us to some very un mother like language. She wasn't impressed by the immature rantings of a 'grown man' We did enjoy telling her he was actually more than 9 centuries old. As she said to finish - none of the children who pass on with more dignity then Ten could manage, had the slightest chance of growing a healthy new body.. They just died.
For gods sake its only a programme - now were bringing mortaly ill children into it ! We can all recall unpleasent things we have seen or dealt with in our lives but to compare it to a fictional character who may or may not have been as brave as we think he should have and to compare that to some poor kid who is dying takes the biscuit.
For gods sake its only a programme - now were bringing mortaly ill children into it ! We can all recall unpleasent things we have seen or dealt with in our lives but to compare it to a fictional character who may or may not have been as brave as we think he should have and to compare that to some poor kid who is dying takes the biscuit.
This, this and this.
This forum can take an entertainment programme far more seriously than it was ever intended to be.
Sorry, I saw it and I missed nothing. We'll have to just disagree, because I just interpret it completely differently. He spent too long indulging in self pity with no consideration for the person who would have to carry the guilt of being the cause of his 'death'.
Also, my mother, who volunteers with child cancer patients, would heartily disagree with the idea that someone who's had 900 years of the most exciting life should be so scared of dying and complain that it wasn't enough! As she said, even the children who died in pain and crying had a reason to - they were children. However, many of them were courage itself, even trying to be brave in front of their parents because they worried how bad they'd feel. They were able to talk to my mother because she's experienced at what she does. Nobody's obliged to brave at such a moment, but how impressive it is when they are and few people in fiction have less right to complain, even if they fear it'll be their last body (of several) .
My mother watched stony faced, then treated us to some very un mother like language. She wasn't impressed by the immature rantings of a 'grown man' We did enjoy telling her he was actually more than 9 centuries old. As she said to finish - none of the children who pass on with more dignity then Ten could manage, had the slightest chance of growing a healthy new body.. They just died.
I admire your mother for her choice of voluntary work. It must be hard.
It must be a bit of a downer, though, if she goes on like that every time some fictional character on the TV dies less than heroically.
Thinking on it a bit more, I may just change my opinion on this story a bit.
While the Tenth Doctor's selfish whining and overreacting felt out of place for the Doctor, it made a lot of sense within the context of the story arc. After Series 4, he was travelling alone, with no human travelling companions to keep his behaviour in check (something necessary to him as established in "Turn Left"), and by the time he got to "The Waters of Mars" he was nearing the bottom of this downward spiral. He was selfish, he was insane, he essentially wasn't the Doctor anymore. But that was the whole point, as there's no better time to regenerate your Doctor-ness than when your Doctor-ness is wearing out. The line "I don't want to go" was inserted to establish this point one last time that yes, it definitely was his time to go (as the Doctor we all know and love wouldn't say something selfish like that).
And now I've realized this whole new emotional and metaphorical meaning behind what was going on. I'll definitely have to watch the episode again because watching it again from a different perspective is much like watching a completely different episode.
Comments
The same way a person with split perosnality disorder is multiple people
Totally disagree with just about evrything you have said. The tenth Doctor was initialy reluctant to rescue Wilf but only because he knew that in doing so he would die and POSSIBLY regenerate, however once he made his mind up then he didn't hesitate and entered the chamber in order to save Wilf. I'm not suprised he didn't want to have to undergo a regenration as he himself explained earlier in the story it was not a very pleasent experience.
How has regenerating been retconned ? Just because it didn't happen straight away ? The third Doctor had been poisoned by radiation and was lost in the time vortex for weeks and only regenerated when he arrived back on Earth
Of course the Doctor is still the ultimate selfless hero, he had a choice, he could either walk away or save Wilf and what did he do ? He saved Wilf so actually it was a great example to children - put others before yourself. And just before he did sacrifice himself he actually said it was an Honour to do so, acknowledging Wilf's bravery and the part he played in defeating the Master
I guess it depends on your interpretation of what makes someone them self. Personally I feel that if someone's personality changed as much as the Tenth Doctor suggested it could in the TCI - am I funny, smart, sexy etc- then I would say no they aren't the same person. All those kind of things are how people identify and relate to each other. What are the essential traits that make him the same person? I can only think of a handful of things and I'm sure if I listed them someone could find an example of one of the Doctors who wasn't like that. Do I see for example 9 in 10 or 10 and 9 in 11? A little but no more so than there might in relatives or people raised in the same culture.
I guess I feel kind meh about regeneration anyway. It's great that it allows the show to go on but I find it a bit of a daft concept and really can't see them all as the same person. They are just too different. I mean even something basic about how he looks just the interaction between him and other characters. You go from having granddaughter to having love interests in Rose and River. Would you have had Amy trying to kiss the Doctor if he still looked like the 1st Doctor?
I think this is why some would love to ret con regneration as an actual death, i.e not just a change of body & personality, but the loss of that paticular consiousness or soul.
I like to think that in the doctors head are multiple essences and with each regen, the current consciousness goes back inside the doctors mindscape and another comes to the fore, taking over the newly regenerated body.
I think I just like the idea that 10 is still inside 11's mind, doing a running commentary
Sorry, I saw it and I missed nothing. We'll have to just disagree, because I just interpret it completely differently. He spent too long indulging in self pity with no consideration for the person who would have to carry the guilt of being the cause of his 'death'.
Also, my mother, who volunteers with child cancer patients, would heartily disagree with the idea that someone who's had 900 years of the most exciting life should be so scared of dying and complain that it wasn't enough! As she said, even the children who died in pain and crying had a reason to - they were children. However, many of them were courage itself, even trying to be brave in front of their parents because they worried how bad they'd feel. They were able to talk to my mother because she's experienced at what she does. Nobody's obliged to brave at such a moment, but how impressive it is when they are and few people in fiction have less right to complain, even if they fear it'll be their last body (of several) .
My mother watched stony faced, then treated us to some very un mother like language. She wasn't impressed by the immature rantings of a 'grown man' We did enjoy telling her he was actually more than 9 centuries old. As she said to finish - none of the children who pass on with more dignity then Ten could manage, had the slightest chance of growing a healthy new body.. They just died.
This, this and this.
This forum can take an entertainment programme far more seriously than it was ever intended to be.
So.... how about those Voord? I think they're due back for a major comeback soon...
I admire your mother for her choice of voluntary work. It must be hard.
It must be a bit of a downer, though, if she goes on like that every time some fictional character on the TV dies less than heroically.
It is fiction.
While the Tenth Doctor's selfish whining and overreacting felt out of place for the Doctor, it made a lot of sense within the context of the story arc. After Series 4, he was travelling alone, with no human travelling companions to keep his behaviour in check (something necessary to him as established in "Turn Left"), and by the time he got to "The Waters of Mars" he was nearing the bottom of this downward spiral. He was selfish, he was insane, he essentially wasn't the Doctor anymore. But that was the whole point, as there's no better time to regenerate your Doctor-ness than when your Doctor-ness is wearing out. The line "I don't want to go" was inserted to establish this point one last time that yes, it definitely was his time to go (as the Doctor we all know and love wouldn't say something selfish like that).
And now I've realized this whole new emotional and metaphorical meaning behind what was going on. I'll definitely have to watch the episode again because watching it again from a different perspective is much like watching a completely different episode.