What did people think of Danny and Oti's AT? I read Oksana's husband choreographed it. I know very little about AT, interested in thoughts on the two so far. Can ou tell the difference from Kevin and Louise's choreographed by Matt Flint?
I wondered if electrodes had been fastened to their nipples and 50,000 volts fired. Stiil, this is SCD, and authenticity doesn't matter, except that the Gangnam Style was ruined by some salsa steps.
What did people think of Danny and Oti's AT? I read Oksana's husband choreographed it. I know very little about AT, interested in thoughts on the two so far. Can ou tell the difference from Kevin and Louise's choreographed by Matt Flint?
From what I can find out neither Jonathan Platero or Matt Flint have any qualifications in AT .
So you have AT novices being helped by choreographers who haven't a clue, pros who haven't a clue and judged by 4 Judges who haven't a clue . No wonder the ATs are a mess .
Why won't the producers employ qualified AT teachers ?
What did people think of Danny and Oti's AT? I read Oksana's husband choreographed it. I know very little about AT, interested in thoughts on the two so far. Can ou tell the difference from Kevin and Louise's choreographed by Matt Flint?
Watching both again, neither works with the A-frame. Both are much more about the tricks and, in the case of Danny and Oti, not even AT tricks. I thought Louise had better feeling than Danny even allowing for a more sympathetic music track. Neither used stillness. I remember seeing an AT video where the couple held back with the woman's foot caressing the floor, poised to move, but barely. It was exquisite. This tension and intensity, this passion. was lacking in both Louise and Danny's dances.
I thought she was surprisingly generous about it. I liked it as a dance and I enjoyed the choreography as a piece of dance. But I didn't think it was a great example of AT. I have watched it in slow motion and find too many faults with the basics, walking outside his partner when there was no reason I could see for it, not collecting in his walks and others. However SK classified it as Neuvo style and I am not very knowledgable about the technique of that. Plus Sofs is more experienced than I.
But it was creative and entertaining and a well executed dance and I thought the tricks on the whole were elegant.
I thought she was surprisingly generous about it. I liked it as a dance and I enjoyed the choreography as a piece of dance. But I didn't think it was a great example of AT. I have watched it in slow motion and find too many faults with the basics, walking outside his partner when there was no reason I could see for it, not collecting in his walks and others. However SK classified it as Neuvo style and I am not very knowledgable about the technique of that. Plus Sofs is more experienced than I.
But it was creative and entertaining and a well executed dance and I thought the tricks on the whole were elegant.
I'm not sure if you've already mentioned it elsewhere - but is there any AT on Strictly where you've thought "ok, that was actually a pretty accurate representation"?
P.s - That sounded pretty sarcastic...but I mean it in a genuine way. Obviously it's going to be hard to find an authentic representation of the dance when very few (if any) of the professionals have any real understanding of it.
I'm not sure if you've already mentioned it elsewhere - but is there any AT on Strictly where you've thought "ok, that was actually a pretty accurate representation"?
P.s - That sounded pretty sarcastic...but I mean it in a genuine way. Obviously it's going to be hard to find an authentic representation of the dance when very few (if any) of the professionals have any real understanding of it.
There are three things I am looking for really, that for me indicates some basic technique has been acquired.
I am looking for steps that are collected in the tango walks. Collecting means bringing your ankles together momentarily as one foot passes the other - a bit like having small magnets in your ankles that 'snag' as they get close together. We rarely see this mostly because we never see more than two walking paces together.
I am looking for the pivot on ochos to be performed with the feet together. The ocho is the "swivel" step. When the free leg draws back it should come together with the standing leg and the two feet should pivot together with the weight still on the standing leg. Then the weight changes and the other leg draws back (or forward in the case of forward ochos). The draw back can be straight as in an ocho or as if drawign a half cirlcle (boleo) but either way the feet should be together that the pivot point.
And in any gancho or enganche I am looking for some thigh to thigh or calf to calf contact. This is the signal a follower responds to, so even if s/he is doing it because the choreography says so, I still expect them to fake it well.
I would also like to see an A frame posture and a static frame that allows the lead to be transmited from the torso and not the arms.
There are three things I am looking for really, that for me indicates some basic technique has been acquired.
I am looking for steps that are collected in the tango walks. Collecting means bringing your ankles together momentarily as one foot passes the other - a bit like having small magnets in your ankles that 'snag' as they get close together. We rarely see this mostly because we never see more than two walking paces together.
I am looking for the pivot on ochos to be performed with the feet together. The ocho is the "swivel" step. When the free leg draws back it should come together with the standing leg and the two feet should pivot together with the weight still on the standing leg. Then the weight changes and the other leg draws back (or forward in the case of forward ochos). The draw back can be straight as in an ocho or as if drawign a half cirlcle (boleo) but either way the feet should be together that the pivot point.
And in any gancho or enganche I am looking for some thigh to thigh or calf to calf contact. This is the signal a follower responds to, so even if s/he is doing it because the choreography says so, I still expect them to fake it well.
I would also like to see an A frame posture and a static frame that allows the lead to be transmited from the torso and not the arms.
Very informative - thank you! I'm pleased to hear Rachel's was the best example, as I enjoyed it a lot.
Do you think a celebrity with reasonable potential should be able to accomplish those elements of technique in under a week, or is it asking too much to produce an authentic looking (even if parts are effectively "faked") routine in that time?
Very informative - thank you! I'm pleased to hear Rachel's was the best example, as I enjoyed it a lot.
Do you think a celebrity with reasonable potential should be able to accomplish those elements of technique in under a week, or is it asking too much to produce an authentic looking (even if parts are effectively "faked") routine in that time?
No to be honest its not really that realistic. its a dance where the fundementals are where all the difficulty is and once they are nailed it gets easy to build on that.. Although having said that in say 40 hours and reasonable ability they should be getting somewhere. To be fair to the celebs they are often being coached to fake choreography that isn't authentic looking to start with.
However the things I describe above are really basic characteristics of the dance. In my opinion it wouldn't be unrealistic to include a basic tango walk of say 8 or ten steps, a couple of back ochos and a couple forward (or a giro/molinete which are ochos or those swivels performed in a ring around the partner) and a basic hook (enganche) or pasada (the displacement that looks as if one of the pair kicks the ohters foot out of the way) so one can compare couples and determine who is doing it best etc.
I'm most definitely not an AT expert but I still think Mark Ramprakash and Karen Hardy's worked the best on SCD for impact and unexpectedness plus it had a fair few bits of recognisable AT for me. (Dance starts at around 2.30)
And I absolutely loved Jay & Aliona's no matter what the judges' said
And Kara & Artem's again had recognisable AT elements imho.
Youtube has a slightly out of date list of all the ATs danced on Strictly which is fascinating to see the difference in effort and music choices.
No to be honest its not really that realistic. its a dance where the fundementals are where all the difficulty is and once they are nailed it gets easy to build on that.. Although having said that in say 40 hours and reasonable ability they should be getting somewhere. To be fair to the celebs they are often being coached to fake choreography that isn't authentic looking to start with.
However the things I describe above are really basic characteristics of the dance. In my opinion it wouldn't be unrealistic to include a basic tango walk of say 8 or ten steps, a couple of back ochos and a couple forward (or a giro/molinete which are ochos or those swivels performed in a ring around the partner) and a basic hook (enganche) or pasada (the displacement that looks as if one of the pair kicks the ohters foot out of the way) so one can compare couples and determine who is doing it best etc.
A shame that more basics aren't seen in Strictly. I've seen a few clips of street Argentine Tangos and the like, and it's still exciting to watch sans acrobatics!
Too much talk of 'A' frames and 'kicks and flicks' in Argentine Tango - which would have my teachers either snorting or laughing their heads off. Ditto talk anything steamy or passionate. Try connection and feeling, response and emotion.
The hold is 'abrazo' and, as Throp so rightly says, it is led by the chest not the arms. Because you connect through the chest but the rest of the body held slightly away to allow for leg movement, it does look like you form an A when you are face to face. However, this hold moves constantly in and out while you dance. Sorry, but we do not call it an 'A' frame. Not sure who does. Ballroom people perhaps? It is called the embrace!
My focus will always stay with my lead, right through his body and legs and into the floor. I am connected to the floor and to him. We hold our own axis and that connection, which enables us to turn and move but stay in tune throughout.
He can make the slightest move and I will follow. I will never anticipate - he leads me and I follow.
Nuevo has a looser more free flowing hold, more circular movement and a lot less walking.
Stage is the flashy tango with a lot of lifts, Milonguero is close hold and social, Salon the most formal and Nuevo the most inventive. There are others, but ....
I have never seen a really great AT on SCD, but I don't expect to. The pros have no idea what one is, and neither do they judges. They will never study it or master it. They don't need to, let's face it. They have samba and stuff. And lots of sequins. The public don't care anyway.
Vincent's AT with that dark haired girl (sorry but I never remember the names) was the best, and I liked Oti's because she attempted to keep it strong and not sleazy and avoided some of the frightful moves that others have done (Karen Hardy, Kevin et al). The SCD mob simply cannot keep away from the seedy lamp post, hooker and fishnet tights element!
But I blame old buzzard Len for that, perpetuating myths about street walkers and grubby gauchos. The ballroom pontificators are much the same - holding forth endlessly about flicks (they are adornos and ganchos not FLICKS) and guessing what AT it is and trying to compare it to ballroom tango. You can't. Chalk and cheese pet.
Will we ever see a great one? No, unlikely. But so what? It's SCD, Blackpool-style laffs and cheap Saturday night happy clappy stuff for the masses.
I no longer feel the need to convert. Too many shouty people. I'd rather just record it all and then go off and dance real AT elsewhere, all night.
I'm most definitely not an AT expert but I still think Mark Ramprakash and Karen Hardy's worked the best on SCD for impact and unexpectedness plus it had a fair few bits of recognisable AT for me. (Dance starts at around 2.30)
And I absolutely loved Jay & Aliona's no matter what the judges' said
And Kara & Artem's again had recognisable AT elements imho.
Youtube has a slightly out of date list of all the ATs danced on Strictly which is fascinating to see the difference in effort and music choices.
That was certainly my favourite but I am very conscious I have no objectivity where Mark is concerned. I had (have) such a serious crush on him that he could have done the hokey cokey and I would have been delighted. :D
Too much talk of 'A' frames and 'kicks and flicks' in Argentine Tango - which would have my teachers either snorting or laughing their heads off. Ditto talk anything steamy or passionate. Try connection and feeling, response and emotion.
The hold is 'abrazo' and, as Throp so rightly says, it is led by the chest not the arms. Because you connect through the chest but the rest of the body held slightly away to allow for leg movement, it does look like you form an A when you are face to face. However, this hold moves constantly in and out while you dance. Sorry, but we do not call it an 'A' frame. Not sure who does. Ballroom people perhaps? It is called the embrace!
My focus will always stay with my lead, right through his body and legs and into the floor. I am connected to the floor and to him. We hold our own axis and that connection, which enables us to turn and move but stay in tune throughout. He can make the slightest move and I will follow. I will never anticipate - he leads me and I follow.
Nuevo has a looser more free flowing hold, more circular movement and a lot less walking.
Stage is the flashy tango with a lot of lifts, Milonguero is close hold and social, Salon the most formal and Nuevo the most inventive. There are others, but ....
I have never seen a really great AT on SCD, but I don't expect to. The pros have no idea what one is, and neither do they judges. They will never study it or master it. They don't need to, let's face it. They have samba and stuff. And lots of sequins. The public don't care anyway.
Vincent's AT with that dark haired girl (sorry but I never remember the names) was the best, and I liked Oti's because she attempted to keep it strong and not sleazy and avoided some of the frightful moves that others have done (Karen Hardy, Kevin et al). The SCD mob simply cannot keep away from the seedy lamp post, hooker and fishnet tights element!
But I blame old buzzard Len for that, perpetuating myths about street walkers and grubby gauchos. The ballroom pontificators are much the same - holding forth endlessly about flicks (they are adornos and ganchos not FLICKS) and guessing what AT it is and trying to compare it to ballroom tango. You can't. Chalk and cheese pet.
Will we ever see a great one? No, unlikely. But so what? It's SCD, Blackpool-style laffs and cheap Saturday night happy clappy stuff for the masses.
I no longer feel the need to convert. Too many shouty people. I'd rather just record it all and then go off and dance real AT elsewhere, all night.
I know what you mean about the slightest movement. The lead only has to give the tiniest surge of energy that anyone watchng would not even see, and you instinctively start moving your leg backwards (or which ever way the surge directs). Its like you foot/leg is magnetically connected to his energy.
Noticed a boleo called a ronde several times last week - *bites on hand*:D
Comments
Where have some of these posters gone? Great discussions, reminiscences and insight.
Anyway, we've had two ATs thus far. I expect another two this year.
From what I can find out neither Jonathan Platero or Matt Flint have any qualifications in AT .
So you have AT novices being helped by choreographers who haven't a clue, pros who haven't a clue and judged by 4 Judges who haven't a clue . No wonder the ATs are a mess .
Why won't the producers employ qualified AT teachers ?
There have only been 2 and I thought she grudgingly liked Danny & Oti's
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=84543206&postcount=12192
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM5jeut7jFE
Here they dance a Milonga:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMkI-AR-tb4
I thought she was surprisingly generous about it. I liked it as a dance and I enjoyed the choreography as a piece of dance. But I didn't think it was a great example of AT. I have watched it in slow motion and find too many faults with the basics, walking outside his partner when there was no reason I could see for it, not collecting in his walks and others. However SK classified it as Neuvo style and I am not very knowledgable about the technique of that. Plus Sofs is more experienced than I.
But it was creative and entertaining and a well executed dance and I thought the tricks on the whole were elegant.
I'm not sure if you've already mentioned it elsewhere - but is there any AT on Strictly where you've thought "ok, that was actually a pretty accurate representation"?
P.s - That sounded pretty sarcastic...but I mean it in a genuine way. Obviously it's going to be hard to find an authentic representation of the dance when very few (if any) of the professionals have any real understanding of it.
Yes, my mistake, Mona ................ I apoligise.
No sarcasm inferred.:) In my opinion the best one was Rachel with Vincent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVx1CskHlcc
There are three things I am looking for really, that for me indicates some basic technique has been acquired.
I am looking for steps that are collected in the tango walks. Collecting means bringing your ankles together momentarily as one foot passes the other - a bit like having small magnets in your ankles that 'snag' as they get close together. We rarely see this mostly because we never see more than two walking paces together.
I am looking for the pivot on ochos to be performed with the feet together. The ocho is the "swivel" step. When the free leg draws back it should come together with the standing leg and the two feet should pivot together with the weight still on the standing leg. Then the weight changes and the other leg draws back (or forward in the case of forward ochos). The draw back can be straight as in an ocho or as if drawign a half cirlcle (boleo) but either way the feet should be together that the pivot point.
And in any gancho or enganche I am looking for some thigh to thigh or calf to calf contact. This is the signal a follower responds to, so even if s/he is doing it because the choreography says so, I still expect them to fake it well.
I would also like to see an A frame posture and a static frame that allows the lead to be transmited from the torso and not the arms.
Very informative - thank you! I'm pleased to hear Rachel's was the best example, as I enjoyed it a lot.
Do you think a celebrity with reasonable potential should be able to accomplish those elements of technique in under a week, or is it asking too much to produce an authentic looking (even if parts are effectively "faked") routine in that time?
No to be honest its not really that realistic. its a dance where the fundementals are where all the difficulty is and once they are nailed it gets easy to build on that.. Although having said that in say 40 hours and reasonable ability they should be getting somewhere. To be fair to the celebs they are often being coached to fake choreography that isn't authentic looking to start with.
However the things I describe above are really basic characteristics of the dance. In my opinion it wouldn't be unrealistic to include a basic tango walk of say 8 or ten steps, a couple of back ochos and a couple forward (or a giro/molinete which are ochos or those swivels performed in a ring around the partner) and a basic hook (enganche) or pasada (the displacement that looks as if one of the pair kicks the ohters foot out of the way) so one can compare couples and determine who is doing it best etc.
And I absolutely loved Jay & Aliona's no matter what the judges' said
And Kara & Artem's again had recognisable AT elements imho.
Youtube has a slightly out of date list of all the ATs danced on Strictly which is fascinating to see the difference in effort and music choices.
A shame that more basics aren't seen in Strictly. I've seen a few clips of street Argentine Tangos and the like, and it's still exciting to watch sans acrobatics!
The hold is 'abrazo' and, as Throp so rightly says, it is led by the chest not the arms. Because you connect through the chest but the rest of the body held slightly away to allow for leg movement, it does look like you form an A when you are face to face. However, this hold moves constantly in and out while you dance. Sorry, but we do not call it an 'A' frame. Not sure who does. Ballroom people perhaps? It is called the embrace!
My focus will always stay with my lead, right through his body and legs and into the floor. I am connected to the floor and to him. We hold our own axis and that connection, which enables us to turn and move but stay in tune throughout.
He can make the slightest move and I will follow. I will never anticipate - he leads me and I follow.
Nuevo has a looser more free flowing hold, more circular movement and a lot less walking.
Stage is the flashy tango with a lot of lifts, Milonguero is close hold and social, Salon the most formal and Nuevo the most inventive. There are others, but ....
I have never seen a really great AT on SCD, but I don't expect to. The pros have no idea what one is, and neither do they judges. They will never study it or master it. They don't need to, let's face it. They have samba and stuff. And lots of sequins. The public don't care anyway.
Vincent's AT with that dark haired girl (sorry but I never remember the names) was the best, and I liked Oti's because she attempted to keep it strong and not sleazy and avoided some of the frightful moves that others have done (Karen Hardy, Kevin et al). The SCD mob simply cannot keep away from the seedy lamp post, hooker and fishnet tights element!
But I blame old buzzard Len for that, perpetuating myths about street walkers and grubby gauchos. The ballroom pontificators are much the same - holding forth endlessly about flicks (they are adornos and ganchos not FLICKS) and guessing what AT it is and trying to compare it to ballroom tango. You can't. Chalk and cheese pet.
Will we ever see a great one? No, unlikely. But so what? It's SCD, Blackpool-style laffs and cheap Saturday night happy clappy stuff for the masses.
I no longer feel the need to convert. Too many shouty people. I'd rather just record it all and then go off and dance real AT elsewhere, all night.
I'll leave with two of the greatest AT dancers ever - Geraldine and Javier. It's an old film but it shows the embrace, the connection (at chest level) flawless 'adornos' (foot movements) and turns which you will see are led by him and followed seamlessly by her. Note how precise her feet are, and how gentle.
That was certainly my favourite but I am very conscious I have no objectivity where Mark is concerned. I had (have) such a serious crush on him that he could have done the hokey cokey and I would have been delighted.
and one or two miserable old sods.....
it must have been a challenging year.
^_^
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I know what you mean about the slightest movement. The lead only has to give the tiniest surge of energy that anyone watchng would not even see, and you instinctively start moving your leg backwards (or which ever way the surge directs). Its like you foot/leg is magnetically connected to his energy.
Noticed a boleo called a ronde several times last week - *bites on hand*:D
I'm wondering if those knowledgeable of AT can recognise any authentic steps - or whether it's just another style over substance performance?
Which one is the pro and which the celeb Nina?