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Ageism In The Music Industry - Why Do Females Get Attacked But Not Males?
Of the last few concerts I went to, one was Madonna (2012) & one was Bruce Springsteen (2013).
Both artists have been around for over 30 years & both are still enjoying incredible success.
As far as I'm concerned, the fact they're both so successful this far into their careers is something to be hugely admired. It's not an easy thing to achieve - longevity in the music business. What's hot one year can be forgotten about the next so for an artist to still be at the top of their game 30 years on is amazing.
One thing I notice though when I read the comments sections on articles is that there are so many "she's past it", "go home, grandma" comments for Madonna but nothing like that for Bruce.
Now, I understand that Madonna is the more controversial of the two artists & she is not without her flaws. I say that as an absolutely massive, lifelong fan of hers so I'm trying to be as balanced as possible here, I'm not defending her every move.
What cannot be denied about Madonna (IMO):-
-Her massive success over 30 years - even albums that some say were flops, still sold over 2m copies worldwide.
-Her record-breaking tours.
-Her ability to create huge buzz with a new release - Rebel Heart is already topping the charts worldwide with several of the songs charting on iTunes around the globe - and this is not even a full album release yet.
-Her dedication to health & fitness - she has a figure that a twenty-something-year-old would envy. Her energy onstage. She has dance music in her blood.
^I find all of this inspiring. To the people who make age-related comments about her or anyone else: Do you ever stop & think that you will be fifty years old some day? Do you want people thinking you're finished & should retire to your rocking chair when you reach that age? You should be inspired to be your best self based on what Madonna is doing/achieving. She's not letting age dictate her life. Ok, so she's had some help keeping the wrinkles at bay (a lot of people have) but the health & fitness work is all her own. A Madonna concert is no walk in the park - it's two hours every night for several months of high-energy performance & dance (plus travelling). Even the thought of that alone is making me want to lie down & take a nap, and I'm much younger than her!
All I'm saying is, even if you're not a fan of her music, surely you can acknowledge that she is a force of nature & an incredible success story. Who else out there is doing it like she is? Kylie is still doing her thing & while she puts on a great concert too, her album sales in the last few years have been very poor. Madonna has somehow managed to keep achieving to a very high standard. And yes, maybe a 2m selling album is considered a flop compared to the 20m selling Ray of Light, but still a 2m selling album is not to be scoffed at - there are many artists out there today who would give their right arm to enjoy those sales.
Only time will tell if the likes of Lady Gaga, Rihanna or Katy Perry are still around 30 years from now, but until then, I can't think of any other artist as successful as Madonna. She has not allowed her age to slow her down - she hasn't decided to make a 'mature' album & do low-key concerts. She's still putting as much effort & energy into her music today as she did 20 years ago. THAT IS SO INSPIRING.
Sorry for the long post but this is something I feel passionate about - you don't have to be a fan of her music or indeed her antics - but the fact that she is only a few years away from 60 & has success & energy that others can only dream of is just incredible.
Btw, I love Bruce Springsteen too & his concert was one of the best I've ever been to. But I don't feel the need to defend him as much because he doesn't get the "old man" comments!
Both artists have been around for over 30 years & both are still enjoying incredible success.
As far as I'm concerned, the fact they're both so successful this far into their careers is something to be hugely admired. It's not an easy thing to achieve - longevity in the music business. What's hot one year can be forgotten about the next so for an artist to still be at the top of their game 30 years on is amazing.
One thing I notice though when I read the comments sections on articles is that there are so many "she's past it", "go home, grandma" comments for Madonna but nothing like that for Bruce.
Now, I understand that Madonna is the more controversial of the two artists & she is not without her flaws. I say that as an absolutely massive, lifelong fan of hers so I'm trying to be as balanced as possible here, I'm not defending her every move.
What cannot be denied about Madonna (IMO):-
-Her massive success over 30 years - even albums that some say were flops, still sold over 2m copies worldwide.
-Her record-breaking tours.
-Her ability to create huge buzz with a new release - Rebel Heart is already topping the charts worldwide with several of the songs charting on iTunes around the globe - and this is not even a full album release yet.
-Her dedication to health & fitness - she has a figure that a twenty-something-year-old would envy. Her energy onstage. She has dance music in her blood.
^I find all of this inspiring. To the people who make age-related comments about her or anyone else: Do you ever stop & think that you will be fifty years old some day? Do you want people thinking you're finished & should retire to your rocking chair when you reach that age? You should be inspired to be your best self based on what Madonna is doing/achieving. She's not letting age dictate her life. Ok, so she's had some help keeping the wrinkles at bay (a lot of people have) but the health & fitness work is all her own. A Madonna concert is no walk in the park - it's two hours every night for several months of high-energy performance & dance (plus travelling). Even the thought of that alone is making me want to lie down & take a nap, and I'm much younger than her!
All I'm saying is, even if you're not a fan of her music, surely you can acknowledge that she is a force of nature & an incredible success story. Who else out there is doing it like she is? Kylie is still doing her thing & while she puts on a great concert too, her album sales in the last few years have been very poor. Madonna has somehow managed to keep achieving to a very high standard. And yes, maybe a 2m selling album is considered a flop compared to the 20m selling Ray of Light, but still a 2m selling album is not to be scoffed at - there are many artists out there today who would give their right arm to enjoy those sales.
Only time will tell if the likes of Lady Gaga, Rihanna or Katy Perry are still around 30 years from now, but until then, I can't think of any other artist as successful as Madonna. She has not allowed her age to slow her down - she hasn't decided to make a 'mature' album & do low-key concerts. She's still putting as much effort & energy into her music today as she did 20 years ago. THAT IS SO INSPIRING.
Sorry for the long post but this is something I feel passionate about - you don't have to be a fan of her music or indeed her antics - but the fact that she is only a few years away from 60 & has success & energy that others can only dream of is just incredible.
Btw, I love Bruce Springsteen too & his concert was one of the best I've ever been to. But I don't feel the need to defend him as much because he doesn't get the "old man" comments!
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Good point. She has a thick skin & boy does she need it in this industry!
on the other hand madonna makes music that appeals to very few people in her age group, with the general demographic of people who like the type of dance/pop music that she makes being typically of teenage age or early 20s. she's never stopped usual sexual imagary and stripping half naked, even though she's nearly 60
i don't think what is described by the OP as ageist at all, as people call mick jagger a grandad and have been slagging him off for years about his age. the main difference is the male artists who keep performing in advancing years are usually full clothed and rely on musical performance. if they were stripping on stage and doing similar things to what madonna does then i'm sure they would equally be slagged off
there are older female acts who also appear on stage and simply play the music and they aren't slagged off. madonna does because she mimes onstage and dresses like a teenager and ultimately looks awful as a result. she could wear what she wants, so dress more age appropriate and as a result look better, but she doesn't. it's her choice to do what she does. even her music that's leaked this week is just more of the same old shite she's been doing the last 10 years which hasn't been a patch on her material from the first 10 years of her career, and when she plays live she changes the arrangements of tracks so much that they sound little like the tracks people enjoyed the first way around, but not changed in a good way. add to that her choice of setlist that doesn't fit well with casual fans, to whom the vast majority of the audience are, and that's why she doesn't have the same reputation as a live act as springstein does, who manages to play for up to 4 hours without miming or costume changes, plays the hits and classics the fans like, in a way they like, plus gets the rarities in, and he even does requests. madonnas hardly going to ask fans to write songs on bits of cardboard and pick songs at random and play them. there's more chance of her showing her tits yet again
kylie manages to pull it off well though. she even did a tour wearing jeans and a t shirt and managed to impress
It is precisely why Kate Bush's live return this year at the age of 57 was so rapturously and critically acclaimed; just as similar older performers Patti Smith; Deborah Harry; Siouxsie Sioux; Chrissie Hynde; Joan Armatrading; etc are.
And it is exactly why Mick Jagger rightfully gets criticised for very similar behaviour in live performances to what Madonna does.
As a great live artist and 1980s icon contemporary of Madonna who has similarly matured as he has got older once sung "Act your age; not your shoe size..."
I think it's a shame that the stripping aspect overshadows talent for some, and in that respect I wish she didn't do it - even though she's in amazing shape. I don't equate the skimpy stage costumes with stripping though. Madonna, offstage, actually dresses very conservatively. She's not a flesh-flasher away from photoshoots or performances.
I don't see anything wrong with the way she dresses onstage for her tours. The Confessions tour was amazing - I didn't see it live but I have it on DVD and I don't recall any inappropriate stripping on that. Same goes for the Sticky & Sweet tour. She did do a bit on the MDNA tour & again I wish she hadn't because there was no need & it gave people another reason to attack her. The concert was great without that.
Her music is a matter of taste so I'm not going to try to change your mind about that. I like what I've heard of the new album so far & can't wait for the rest. As for her setlists on tour, she usually tours to promote her latest album so the setlist is going to rely heavily on that, with a few of her other songs thrown in. A friend of mine who is not a lifelong fan, just a casual fan as you describe, was disappointed with her last tour because she wanted to hear the greatest hits - but it was the MDNA tour so naturally it featured a lot of material from the MDNA album & my friend hadn't listened to it so she didn't know the songs.
I agree that Bruce is absolutely outstanding - his concert was up there with the best I've ever been to, he was fantastic. As another poster on here said, they are very different artists so in a way it's unfair to compare their concerts - I was just comparing them for the sake of the ageism debate.
I don't think it's fair to write Madonna off though as just somebody who relies on stripping & shock tactics - there's no way she'd still be around after 30 years if she didn't have talent & something special.
It wasn't my intention to put Kylie or anyone else down - I like Kylie too. My point was that the music industry is very fickle like you said. Kylie was huge a few years ago but the last few years, sales have gone down, yet she doesn't seem to get the "time to give up, you're over" comments that Madonna does, when Madonna is still selling albums & concert tickets on a massive scale. I would understand those comments more if she was not still successful...if her concerts were a disaster, if her albums were not selling, if her concerts & albums got bad reviews. But that is not the case. If somebody is still delivering, there is no reason for them to give up.
Just because Madonna has a fit body (a bit too thin and haggard for my liking) doesn't mean she has to act like a girl barely out of her teens. The truth is she doesn't have a lot of vocal or musical talent so she has to rely on backing dancers, effects and props in order to put on a good show. She’s a marginally talented pop star who has made a lot out of very, very little. I don't care how many records she's sold or how many other equally untalented pop stars she's inspired, she's a 56-year-old Katy Perry. Likening Madonna to Bruce Springsteen is as bad as someone likening One Direction to The Beatles.
Maybe Iggy is just a laughing stock these days but he certainly wasn't in the past. Yet he does seem immune from the same sort of criticism that Madonna gets who is 10 years younger. Ummm, maybe the OP has a point?
The ones who seem to get attention more for their looks, ageing, how they dress etc are those whose fans are on average younger and who are perceived as being more appealing to a younger audience and relying on those things to start with - i.e. pop stars. Rightly or wrongly, it's because people judge their work to be immature I'd guess.
There is a lot more difference between Madonna and Bruce Springsteen than one being female and the other being male. It's not a great comparison. Jacko and Madonna if he were still alive might have been a better comparison. I'm struggling to think of an older pop star who is still active really. Pop tends to look for the next new thing even more than any other genre. Maybe someone like George Michael?
I don't think the OP meant to do that but I see it all the time with others.
Iggy Pop could be categorised with Alice Cooper and to a lesser extent Kiss in that their shock act was just that ..... an act. Hence today why he is sober and a bit of a fitness fanatic and is managed by his son.
Iggy Pop's critical success (Raw Power; Lust For Life; The Idiot albums all produced by David Bowie) has come via his association being David Bowie's mad unstable American friend. Although he got some kudos for the use of Lust For Life in Trainspotting; and his excellent stint on BBC Radio 6Music on Sunday afternoons as a DJ this year was a pleasure to listen to.
Another example you could use would be AC/DC's Angus Young doing his Chuck Berry style Duckwalk in school uniform. But anyone who thinks that is credible I think needs their brain tested ....
The thing is iggy isn't doing it to try to be sexy, he just doesn't care.
Plus he has a big c@ck which exolt the see through trousers
^That is why I think she deserves major credit. There are very few pop stars who have been around for as long as she has. She has managed to survive in an industry that is extremely fickle.
As if ac/dc care if they are credible or not! (Whatever that means)
They are cool to many rock fans and Still sell lots of records and concert tickets
Coldplay and U2 hit #1 in most countries around the world. In fact, Coldplay's latest album, Ghost Stories, has sold nearly three million copies worldwide while their last album, Mylo Xyloto, has sold about eight million copies worldwide. U2 sold five million copies of No Line on the Horizon around the world in 2009 whereas Madonna's last two albums, Hard Candy and MDNA, have sold four and two million copies worldwide. The physical sales of U2's latest album haven't been stellar, but it was available for free. Their 360° Tour is the highest-grossing concert tour in history.
Adele has achieved a lot more success in the last four years than what Madonna has in a long time. Rihanna and Katy Perry sell more albums and singles than Madonna nowadays. If you're talking about all time then The Beatles, Elvis and Michael Jackson have all sold A LOT more records than Madonna. Barbra Streisand is still the highest selling female artist in US chart history, and Mariah Carey is still the highest selling female artist of the SoundScan era. Madonna hasn't had an album certified Platinum in the US for nearly ten years. She also hasn't had a number one single on the Hot 100 for 14 years.
I acknowledge that some of her decisions are not great ones - the stripping/nudity later on in her career, her recent Instagram post likening the album leak to terrorism - I think she could have done without those things. But I'm not going to write her off just for those bad decisions when the rest of her decisions have been so great.
I don't doubt that she has a great team around her (as do all artists) - creative director on tour, producers, songwriters etc - but she has to pick them & approve their work. I do believe that she has a strong input into the finished product, be it a song, an album or a tour. She's known to be a perfectionist.
I was only comparing her to Bruce in terms of age, not in terms of performance etc. They are completely different. One of the posters on here was right when they said that MJ might have been a better comparison if he were still around. For the most part, with the exception of boybands or Justin Timberlake, male performers to not include dance routines on their tours. Madonna, at 56, is still dancing on stage & nailing it. Honestly, her Confessions tour is amazing. That was one of her best albums so the setlist is great, the dancing is great, she looks great, her costumes are great - it's so packed full of energy. Even if you're not a fan, surely you can acknowledge when something is well done.
I'm not a fan of Kate Bush but good on her for her recent success. I think it's great that artists are still successful years later. And I get that she is just about the songs & the voice - there are no frills on stage. That might appeal to some - each to their own. But personally, I prefer the high energy concerts of Justin Timberlake, P!nk etc. The fact that Madonna at 56 can put on a concert that is just as energetic & entertaining as her younger counterparts is something to be admired - and it should give younger artists hope that maybe it's possible that they could still be around & still be successful years from now.
Madonna & Michael Jackson were my idols growing up - I grew up listening to their music & watching their videos. I'd like to think that if MJ were still around, he'd still be releasing great music too.
I just love the fact that Madonna is creating such a buzz with album #13 at 56 years old. It's exciting for me as a fan that she continues to be a success & while not without controversy, she has always looked after herself & not gone down the drugs route. There is so much about her that is inspiring.
Coldplay are a rock band & they haven't been around for 30+ years. Katy & Rihanna haven't been around for that long either so that's an unfair comparison. Adele has had amazing success but she's only released two albums. Not denying the success of any of these artists whatsoever. When I made that comment about Madonna, I meant at 30+ years into their career. I'm not talking about artists who are currently at their peak or have yet to peak.
U2's success is fantastic. I love to see artists succeeding well into their careers - it's not just Madonna, and I'm not a massive fan of U2 but their success still makes me happy.
Look at the sales for the last four Kylie albums. I like Kylie so please don't take this as being an attack on her because it isn't. Look at how big she was when Fever was released. I'm beginning to question the figures for her last four albums to be honest because they just don't seem like they could be right, they couldn't be that low. I would say that there is generally a lot more love for Kylie than there is for Madonna - she's a warmer, sweeter person in interviews. She puts on great concerts. Her profile has been kept high with her appearance as a judge on The Voice. Yet if these figures are correct, her success has waned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylie_Minogue_albums_discography
Now look at the figures for Madonna's album sales. Yes, there is most certainly a dip in sales with her last two albums. She has had varied success. Major drop in sales between Like A Prayer & Erotica, then sales shot back up for Ray Of Light. Back down again for American Life & up again for Confessions. So you never know with her what will happen. We'll just have to wait & see how Rebel Heart is received. A 2m sale is still good though, even if it's the lowest of her career. And she had a massively successful tour on the back of that album.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_albums_discography
Coldplay are certainly not a rock band, maybe a soft indie band, about as rock as Madonna!
No, he really isn't
Iggy doesn't strip off for sexual reasons. Maybe that's the difference. It's just something he does.
Having said that, I think Madonna looks great & as far as I'm concerned, she can dress however the hell she likes. On and off stage.
In the UK, the decline from "Music" to "American Life" is roughly the same as the decline from "Fever" to "Body Language". Unfortunately for Kylie she never made another huge comeback like Madonna did with "Confessions on a Dance Floor". Although Madonna went on the decline again with "Hard Candy" and "MDNA".
I'm not sure why you're comparing Kylie to Madonna anyways since the post you quoted doesn't even mention Kylie. They're on totally different levels and I say that as a fan of Kylie. Kylie has never been huge WW with the exception of the late 80s and early 00s. Even in Europe where she's a household name, if you looked at her chart success it's very on and off. Her "celebrity" is higher than her chart success in quite a few countries. But are we still discussing her and going to her concerts after 25 years? Yes.
I did mention Kylie in my original post and the reason I did is because she is another popstar who is still around over 20 years on from her original success. Even though she's 10 years younger than Madonna, I was trying to think of other artists who are still doing the popstar thing even though they're out of their twenties & thirties. I also thought of Cher who enjoyed a successful tour this year but she hasn't been releasing music as regularly as Madonna or Kylie.
I didn't think about the worldwide sales - sorry about that. I just thought that Kylie's albums would have had higher sales figures than what is listed on Wikipedia since she is still very much in the public eye and like Madonna, she is still very fit, youthful & full of energy for her age.