But the point of the ending was that the "monster" was Clara who had inadvertently scared The Doctor when he was young. It could have been a monster but that is one hell of a coincidence.
Why is that the only logical conclusion? It sure as hell isn't the conclusion I jumped to.
As I said, it's ambiguous. There's a case to be made that it was a real monster.
Because the moment Clara grabs the leg it is supposed to be the "ohhhhhhh" moment. When you realise that this thing The Doctor is looking for actually just spawned from a childhood nightmare that Clara was a part of. So it's meant to make you think so what was the thing on the bed? An actual monster? That just so happened to be in that place at that time?
Because the moment Clara grabs the leg it is supposed to be the "ohhhhhhh" moment. When you realise that this thing The Doctor is looking for actually just spawned from a childhood nightmare that Clara was a part of. So it's meant to make you think so what was the thing on the bed? An actual monster? That just so happened to be in that place at that time?
But then why was a completely unrelated boy in mid 1990's earth having the same nightmare? Why had Clara had it before? What was outside the ship?
Just because Clara planted the idea doesn't mean that it still didn't exist....
But then why was a completely unrelated boy in mid 1990's earth having the same nightmare? Why had Clara had it before? What was outside the ship?
Just because Clara planted the idea doesn't mean that it still didn't exist....
DOCTOR: You get representations of the Horned Beast right across the universe, in the myths and legends of a million worlds. Earth, Draconia, Velconsadine, Daemos. The carving on the wall. It's the same image, over and over again. Maybe that idea came from somewhere, bleeding through. The thought at the back of every sentient mind.
IDA: Emanating from here?
DOCTOR: Could be.
IDA: But if this is the original, does that make it real? Does that make it the actual devil, though?
DOCTOR: Well, if that's what you want to believe. Maybe that's what the devil is, in the end. An idea.
And we did get Orson Pink (somehow) wearing a Space suit from Sanctuary Base 6.
Because the moment Clara grabs the leg it is supposed to be the "ohhhhhhh" moment. When you realise that this thing The Doctor is looking for actually just spawned from a childhood nightmare that Clara was a part of.
No, when Clara grabs the leg it is supposed to be the moment when it becomes a possibility that she causes the Doctor to believe in the thing.
It's not a certainty. She may just have planted the idea in the Doctor's head to look for the entity.
But then why was a completely unrelated boy in mid 1990's earth having the same nightmare? Why had Clara had it before? What was outside the ship?
Just because Clara planted the idea doesn't mean that it still didn't exist....
And that is my point. It doesnt make sense. If the purpose of the ending wasn't to make you think that the monster didn't exist then I don't quite know what it was.
Maybe I just completely misread the episode and if somebody can show me otherwise I'll happily get on board with it.
My point is Moffat did that final scene to give you that bit of doubt about what you've just seen. However, earlier on in the episode he gives you the bed scene in which there is clearly something there.
The nightmare was just the typical Moffat trope of tapping into a fear we can relate to. All of us have probably had a similar nightmare. Same with what if there was a monster that moved when we weren't looking (Angels)? What if there was a monster you'd forget as soon as you look away? And even in Listen What if when you speak allowed you arent on your own? All fears we can relate to. In the end the dream part of the plot meant nothing.
But the point of the ending was that the "monster" was Clara who had inadvertently scared The Doctor when he was young. It could have been a monster but that is one hell of a coincidence.
But the hands under the bed isn't just the Doctors fear..we all have it !!!
So Orson Pink is a descendent of Clara and Danny Pink? Which means that Clara has to marry Danny (lucky fellow) and procreate with him (very lucky fellow), and she knows it. It also means that she cannot be killed off for quite a while yet.
What about the business of Danny having been a soldier? Was he, or did he make that up because he would like to have been?
Maybe Orson takes another experimental time trip and ends up in the 80's where he marries and has a son called.... Rupert?
I just stuck up a 2mins review - was wondering about humans and time-travel. Why isn't the Doctor encountering more of them if it's possible for humans within 100 years?
(Ps love to hear what you think of the review!) Rory
And that is my point. It doesnt make sense. If the purpose of the ending wasn't to make you think that the monster didn't exist then I don't quite know what it was.
Maybe I just completely misread the episode and if somebody can show me otherwise I'll happily get on board with it.
My point is Moffat did that final scene to give you that bit of doubt about what you've just seen. However, earlier on in the episode he gives you the bed scene in which there is clearly something there.
The nightmare was just the typical Moffat trope of tapping into a fear we can relate to. All of us have probably had a similar nightmare. Same with what if there was a monster that moved when we weren't looking (Angels)? What if there was a monster you'd forget as soon as you look away? And even in Listen What if when you speak allowed you arent on your own? All fears we can relate to. In the end the dream part of the plot meant nothing.
Unless the dream is just your sub-conscious trying to tell you what it has noticed whilst you were trying not to notice....
This is why I love the episode. It makes you think and think again. This sort of resolution is better than just a standard monster reveal. In any other show (or with many other writers) The Doctor could have opened the door and been attacked by something and then the horror becomes realised. You have a different story and a different ending.
I can see why people are annoyed with the ambiguity and the constant questions, and when it's in the setting of a long arc or a finale I can see their point (Despite loving the stories and episodes I do think Moffat relies on tricks too much to resolve his plot points). However, when it's a stand-alone episode it works very well indeed.
As other people have said before me, in my opinion Listen is not only one of the best episodes of this series; it's one of the best episodes of any series on TV.
And that is my point. It doesnt make sense. If the purpose of the ending wasn't to make you think that the monster didn't exist then I don't quite know what it was.
Maybe I just completely misread the episode and if somebody can show me otherwise I'll happily get on board with it.
My point is Moffat did that final scene to give you that bit of doubt about what you've just seen. However, earlier on in the episode he gives you the bed scene in which there is clearly something there.
The nightmare was just the typical Moffat trope of tapping into a fear we can relate to. All of us have probably had a similar nightmare. Same with what if there was a monster that moved when we weren't looking (Angels)? What if there was a monster you'd forget as soon as you look away? And even in Listen What if when you speak allowed you arent on your own? All fears we can relate to. In the end the dream part of the plot meant nothing.
Just repeating my interpretation from before.
In investigating a commonly held fear the Doctor inadvertently instills that same fear in his younger self who is already a timid and fearful child. Luckily he also imparts some stirring words of wisdom through his proxy Clara, which will serve him well in future.
And they never answered whether there is a creature because Clara, out of fear of what she may have done, persuades the Doctor to leave it. I think there is also an implication that the Doctor figures out what's gone on.
But they showed a brief glimpse of something unearthly in Danny's room so my money would be on there actually being something.
Moffat is such an infuriating writer. He can sometimes meander all over the place, throw in the kitchen sink and generally disappoint by not having a strong script editor. But when he's at his best - and, for me, he was at his considerable best tonight - it works beautifully.
And the last two weeks have reminded me why I love this show so much. Two episodes which couldn't be more different and yet I enjoyed them equally. What other show can do that ?
And that is my point. It doesnt make sense. If the purpose of the ending wasn't to make you think that the monster didn't exist then I don't quite know what it was.
I think there are a lot of ways you could interpret the episode, and that is a valid one.
Another would be that the thing hiding in the shadow, under the bed isn't always a monster but can be a friend - Clara. It also leaves questions about whether the monster always hides in the shadows or is in plain sight.
It is kind of reinforced by the monster being on the bed and the focal point of the room - it wasn't hiding. It was drawing attention to itself whilst Clara and Pink were hiding under the bed. I think maybe the episode is playing with the idea that evil isn't the only thing that hides, sometimes the good within someone does do. Resides in the shadow hidden away- but I tend to read things that aren't there. But there is a definite role reversal going on there - as she is hiding twice in the same location twice. Lurking where the monster would usually be.
I thought that there were several monsters. The first being the Silence, writing listen on the board. The second being on the bed. The third being at the end of time. And the final being the Doctor (as like it or not he is kind of a monster in his own right.) It was just none of them was the monster the Doctor was looking for.
It could also be interpreted as saying that some things just can't be explained and have no rational basis. And that there are still things in the universe that the Doctor doesn't know or can't explain.
That's the great thing about episodes that don't fill in the blanks, there are so many ways to read them, and all of them have some merit at least.
To be fair, you should have alerted the thread and had it stickied when it was started. Then you should have alerted the mods again and asked for the poll to be added immediately the episode ended, not wait more than an hour before doing so.
Am i the only one who thinks it looks like an old style Sontaran....And Sontarans were mentioned when the Doctor was rambling
That was a nod to the fourth Doctor rambling when he comes round after his regeneration. He says the same thing about Sontarans perverting the course of history.
Also, Clara's last line - fear makes companions of us all - is a steal from a line that William Hartnell said in, I think, the very first story.
I LOVED this episode. PC was superb - loved the coffee cup sequence and the scene where he'd parked the TARDIS in Clara's bedroom - still wonderfully oblivious to what might have happened had the date gone rather better.
But the ending - Well. Clara hiding under the bed. My daughter and I were convinced it was Rupert's bed, then the adults said he'd never make a Time Lord - that was a real WTF moment. Brilliant stuff.
Just want to mention Murray Gold's music for the final scenes - beautifully done. Understated and just so right.
Oh, and was their a "faint" question mark in Capaldis' sweater?
And the quote "we can't leave immediately though, the TARDIS needs to recharge" - did anyone get reminded of Hartnell when he sabotaged the TARDIS just so he could force the Companions to explore that strange deserted base on Skaro.
I love that Moff weaves bits from the past beck into the episodes. Clearly the Doctor wanted to stay here for his own benefit, so lied to get his wish. Love Capaldi!
Comments
But the point of the ending was that the "monster" was Clara who had inadvertently scared The Doctor when he was young. It could have been a monster but that is one hell of a coincidence.
Don't worry, The Gatherer hasn't returned yet ;-)
No, Ryan Murphy under your bed is a far more terrifying conceit. ;-)
Because the moment Clara grabs the leg it is supposed to be the "ohhhhhhh" moment. When you realise that this thing The Doctor is looking for actually just spawned from a childhood nightmare that Clara was a part of. So it's meant to make you think so what was the thing on the bed? An actual monster? That just so happened to be in that place at that time?
But then why was a completely unrelated boy in mid 1990's earth having the same nightmare? Why had Clara had it before? What was outside the ship?
Just because Clara planted the idea doesn't mean that it still didn't exist....
We all have different monsters.
Haven't heard from him since, but then I haven't been able to get online a lot since the other day. :P
God forbid I enjoy one of my favourite shows.
And we did get Orson Pink (somehow) wearing a Space suit from Sanctuary Base 6.
No, when Clara grabs the leg it is supposed to be the moment when it becomes a possibility that she causes the Doctor to believe in the thing.
It's not a certainty. She may just have planted the idea in the Doctor's head to look for the entity.
"Carving on the wall" was "Kaled God of War"
Not sure what the first creature in the list was but I did see a Slitheen and a Terileptil
And that is my point. It doesnt make sense. If the purpose of the ending wasn't to make you think that the monster didn't exist then I don't quite know what it was.
Maybe I just completely misread the episode and if somebody can show me otherwise I'll happily get on board with it.
My point is Moffat did that final scene to give you that bit of doubt about what you've just seen. However, earlier on in the episode he gives you the bed scene in which there is clearly something there.
The nightmare was just the typical Moffat trope of tapping into a fear we can relate to. All of us have probably had a similar nightmare. Same with what if there was a monster that moved when we weren't looking (Angels)? What if there was a monster you'd forget as soon as you look away? And even in Listen What if when you speak allowed you arent on your own? All fears we can relate to. In the end the dream part of the plot meant nothing.
But the hands under the bed isn't just the Doctors fear..we all have it !!!
http://media.tumblr.com/6df6a1932707d5d3c997ee01542d28f2/tumblr_inline_mnhiobhuPY1qz4rgp.jpg
Oh, and was their a "faint" question mark in Capaldis' sweater?
What about the business of Danny having been a soldier? Was he, or did he make that up because he would like to have been?
Maybe Orson takes another experimental time trip and ends up in the 80's where he marries and has a son called.... Rupert?
(Ps love to hear what you think of the review!) Rory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frhbZ4B6FwQ
Unless the dream is just your sub-conscious trying to tell you what it has noticed whilst you were trying not to notice....
This is why I love the episode. It makes you think and think again. This sort of resolution is better than just a standard monster reveal. In any other show (or with many other writers) The Doctor could have opened the door and been attacked by something and then the horror becomes realised. You have a different story and a different ending.
I can see why people are annoyed with the ambiguity and the constant questions, and when it's in the setting of a long arc or a finale I can see their point (Despite loving the stories and episodes I do think Moffat relies on tricks too much to resolve his plot points). However, when it's a stand-alone episode it works very well indeed.
As other people have said before me, in my opinion Listen is not only one of the best episodes of this series; it's one of the best episodes of any series on TV.
Just repeating my interpretation from before.
In investigating a commonly held fear the Doctor inadvertently instills that same fear in his younger self who is already a timid and fearful child. Luckily he also imparts some stirring words of wisdom through his proxy Clara, which will serve him well in future.
And they never answered whether there is a creature because Clara, out of fear of what she may have done, persuades the Doctor to leave it. I think there is also an implication that the Doctor figures out what's gone on.
But they showed a brief glimpse of something unearthly in Danny's room so my money would be on there actually being something.
And the last two weeks have reminded me why I love this show so much. Two episodes which couldn't be more different and yet I enjoyed them equally. What other show can do that ?
I think there are a lot of ways you could interpret the episode, and that is a valid one.
Another would be that the thing hiding in the shadow, under the bed isn't always a monster but can be a friend - Clara. It also leaves questions about whether the monster always hides in the shadows or is in plain sight.
It is kind of reinforced by the monster being on the bed and the focal point of the room - it wasn't hiding. It was drawing attention to itself whilst Clara and Pink were hiding under the bed. I think maybe the episode is playing with the idea that evil isn't the only thing that hides, sometimes the good within someone does do. Resides in the shadow hidden away- but I tend to read things that aren't there. But there is a definite role reversal going on there - as she is hiding twice in the same location twice. Lurking where the monster would usually be.
I thought that there were several monsters. The first being the Silence, writing listen on the board. The second being on the bed. The third being at the end of time. And the final being the Doctor (as like it or not he is kind of a monster in his own right.) It was just none of them was the monster the Doctor was looking for.
It could also be interpreted as saying that some things just can't be explained and have no rational basis. And that there are still things in the universe that the Doctor doesn't know or can't explain.
That's the great thing about episodes that don't fill in the blanks, there are so many ways to read them, and all of them have some merit at least.
Best of this series so far by a country mile.
I loved both. I wasn't aware there were press gangs of opposing "Yes" and "No" camps roaming the streets forcing me to chose between the two.
I did alert them just as you said!
That was a nod to the fourth Doctor rambling when he comes round after his regeneration. He says the same thing about Sontarans perverting the course of history.
Also, Clara's last line - fear makes companions of us all - is a steal from a line that William Hartnell said in, I think, the very first story.
I LOVED this episode. PC was superb - loved the coffee cup sequence and the scene where he'd parked the TARDIS in Clara's bedroom - still wonderfully oblivious to what might have happened had the date gone rather better.
But the ending - Well. Clara hiding under the bed. My daughter and I were convinced it was Rupert's bed, then the adults said he'd never make a Time Lord - that was a real WTF moment. Brilliant stuff.
Just want to mention Murray Gold's music for the final scenes - beautifully done. Understated and just so right.
And the quote "we can't leave immediately though, the TARDIS needs to recharge" - did anyone get reminded of Hartnell when he sabotaged the TARDIS just so he could force the Companions to explore that strange deserted base on Skaro.
I love that Moff weaves bits from the past beck into the episodes. Clearly the Doctor wanted to stay here for his own benefit, so lied to get his wish. Love Capaldi!