I often find an unrelated example helps to illustrate a point. On some occasions, with some individuals, it doesn't. Clearly, in this case, the later applies;)
Key word "unrelated" I think the problem you're having is that your point was no such thing.
An extremist is an extremist whichever label they wear.
An extremist is an extremist whichever label they wear.
So you think that extreme idealism is just as bad as advocating fear, hate and violence?
And do you think that a far left party (like I assume the SWP is) is just as dangerous for Britain today as the BNP is? Personally I would say that both have very little or hardly any impact, but I think the BNP is more dangerous given the amount of immigration you have in Britain and the fact that racism is still very much prevalent in some parts of the country (and the BNP seems to fuel racism). As for the SWP, what harm do they do apart from being maybe naive and rigid in their views?
As someone who would define himself as being on the far left, I could not vote for the SWP. They are generally nimby's who try to talk the talk but rarely walk the walk. Farmer's markets and gastro pubs are talked about with much glee. Basically I don't think they are true socialists in any way. Yes they do have many worthwhile principles but living under the results of these principles are not something that many of the SWP would be happy with.
Unfortunately the left is very fragmented at the moment and there is a lot of infighting that is hampering our cause.
As someone who would define himself as being on the far left, I could not vote for the SWP. They are generally nimby's who try to talk the talk but rarely walk the walk. Farmer's markets and gastro pubs are talked about with much glee. Basically I don't think they are true socialists in any way. Yes they do have many worthwhile principles but living under the results of these principles are not something that many of the SWP would be happy with.
Unfortunately the left is very fragmented at the moment and there is a lot of infighting that is hampering our cause.
So who should a far left supporter in Britain vote for these days? And what's wrong with farmers' markets?
I think you are right, Richclever. This is probably partly due to the failure of the communist bloc countries, it's allegedly proved not to work. Well, their bastardised version didn't work. The left needs to find a new path that does not finish where the Soviet Union finished. It needs to do it, and have some credibility as we don't hve an opposition party ATM, what's the difference between Labour and the Tories at the moment?
So who should a far left supporter in Britain vote for these days? And what's wrong with farmers' markets?
Farmer's markets are a free market, where the price is set by demand. That surely is everything the SWP stands against. Sadly for them, what they seem to stand for is old style soviet socialism, don't think many people believe in that any more.
Farmer's markets are a free market, where the price is set by demand. That surely is everything the SWP stands against. Sadly for them, what they seem to stand for is old style soviet socialism, don't think many people believe in that any more.
Do they really stand for old-style soviet socialism? I thought they were Trotskyists?
As for farmers' markets, I don't know how they really work in Britain (it is way too expensive in Edinburgh so I never go to it), but in Greece they are just places where you can get fresh fruit and vegetables very cheaply and small local producers sell their stuff; they are the people's market, so to speak. Surely a socialist wouldn't have a problem with that.
So who should a far left supporter in Britain vote for these days? And what's wrong with farmers' markets?
To be honest that is a difficult one. I couldn't vote for the SWP in the same way I couldn't vote for Labour. I look out for other socialist parties and judge accordingly. I admit I have a problem with the SWP and quite a few members I have met. It's not that they are bad or anything it's just a very wet form of socialism in my book.
Do they really stand for old-style soviet socialism? I thought they were Trotskyists?
As for farmers' markets, I don't know how they really work in Britain (it is way too expensive in Edinburgh so I never go to it), but in Greece they are just places where you can get fresh fruit and vegetables very cheaply and small local producers sell their stuff; they are the people's market, so to speak. Surely a socialist wouldn't have a problem with that.
Having lived in Italy and France I have seen real farmers markets where it is the normal farming person that comes down with their produce and sells it. Many of the so called farmer's markets in the UK are in reality an excuse to sell 'posh' food and overly inflated prices. Don't get me wrong, I love good food but am not taken in by the falseness of many British farmer's markets.
If you happen to be a binman in Leeds facing a 30% pay cut or a postal worker anywhere in the UK trying to defend your livelihood from attack by Royal Mail bosses on six figure salaries, you'd need to look long and hard to find support for your cause from any other political party.
On the other hand if you're a city banker looking forward to your Christmas bonus then you're positively spoiled for choice with all of the main parties happy to sit back and watch the obscenity of public money being used to fund champagne and Porsches for the well to do.
As the OP said, at times like this, its very surprising that the Socialist Workers Party don't get more votes.
I DO NOT AGREE with Banker's Bonuses NOR DO I AGREE with Public sector workers (and Post Office workers) thinking they can stamp their feet and throw a hissy fit because their unreasonable demands are not met. Neither are likely to gain much public support in these hard times, and if anything turn more people against them.
What they should remember is that the unions are doing more harm than good and if the strike goes ahead they may not have jobs to walk back into (if the company goes under) due to their own arrogance.
Remember that there are many workers out there who have LOST their jobs or suffered from pay cuts and freezes so why do these unions think they are something special????
I am a commited Socialist. I believe that those who earn more should contribute more back to the state that supported them when they needed it, so others can benefit and rise to the top.
However, in the UK, the left are just too factionalised to be trusted. The infighting, the backbiting, the doctrinal differences... It's tiring. When they preach equality, yet they can't embrace their fellow travellers... I can't support them electorally. Look at the two most recent examples, with the Scottish Socialist Party in Glasgow and RESPECT down London. Both of them fell apart through simple power struggles, through whingy, hand-wringy doctrinal issues or simply one person getting too big for his boots.
Until these parties start to grow up and act like adults they won't get the trust they need from the electorate - no matter how good their policies are.
I am a commited Socialist. I believe that those who earn more should contribute more back to the state that supported them when they needed it, so others can benefit and rise to the top.
However, in the UK, the left are just too factionalised to be trusted. The infighting, the backbiting, the doctrinal differences... It's tiring. When they preach equality, yet they can't embrace their fellow travellers... I can't support them electorally. Look at the two most recent examples, with the Scottish Socialist Party in Glasgow and RESPECT down London. Both of them fell apart through simple power struggles, through whingy, hand-wringy doctrinal issues or simply one person getting too big for his boots.
Until these parties start to grow up and act like adults they won't get the trust they need from the electorate - no matter how good their policies are.
And what happens when the redistribution sucks the ambition out of the populous, why take more responsibility and liability for no more reward, a society that melts into mediocrity that then requires the threat of a Gulag or Polonium Coffee to drive it to succeed, no thanks.
However, in the UK, the left are just too factionalised to be trusted. The infighting, the backbiting, the doctrinal differences... It's tiring.
The left is like that everywhere I think, not just in Britain. I too find it tiresome. However, a left-wing person once told me that this happens because left-wing people are more critical and idealistic and they analyse things too much, so they are bound to always have differences (unlike the right and generally the establishment parties that care primarily about getting things done, i.e. getting into government). Or maybe left-wingers are just a bit too self-righteous. I think there might be some truth in both statements. It is ironic really that the left is supposed to be about community, and that left-wing parties fail to be in community with each other.
Do they really stand for old-style soviet socialism? I thought they were Trotskyists?
I wish. I think they have envy in their hearts, and will finish up like Prescott, and David Nicholson (NHS CEO and ex UK communist party). Big fat salary, living in Tunbridge wells ans to all intents and puropses middle class. I'm middle class and make no bones about it, I don't envy the rich cos I have enough. Food, wine, house, what more could I legitimately ask for? These people percieve themselves as poor, and probably think of me as a fat cat. They know nothing, nor do they understand how hard I would fight them in the event of a revolution. Cowards, bigots, nimbys. To hell with them.
These people percieve themselves as poor, and probably think of me as a fat cat. They know nothing, nor do they understand how hard I would fight them in the event of a revolution. Cowards, bigots, nimbys. To hell with them.
Well you won't have to wait for a revolution that will probably never happen, it will probably all kick off again once the Tories take over.
I look forward to seeing your hard man reports from riot central.
As long as they score more votes than the BNP, I would be happy.
I've always defined my politics around the song Imagine by John Lennon. I do believe we just could get their one day.:)
Nation states are ridiculous and unecessary, I'm definitely not British, never want to be identified with those disgusting far-right flags like the union jack and st.Georges cross.
If you happen to be a binman in Leeds facing a 30% pay cut or a postal worker anywhere in the UK trying to defend your livelihood from attack by Royal Mail bosses on six figure salaries, you'd need to look long and hard to find support for your cause from any other political party.
On the other hand if you're a city banker looking forward to your Christmas bonus then you're positively spoiled for choice with all of the main parties happy to sit back and watch the obscenity of public money being used to fund champagne and Porsches for the well to do.
As the OP said, at times like this, its very surprising that the Socialist Workers Party don't get more votes.
Alan events that have occurred have proved you wrong indeed.
As long as they score more votes than the BNP, I would be happy.
I've always defined my politics around the song Imagine by John Lennon. I do believe we just could get their one day.:)
Nation states are ridiculous and unecessary, I'm definitely not British, never want to be identified with those disgusting far-right flags like the union jack and st.Georges cross.
What would be better global governance and permanent revolution?
Forget about Tory, Labour, Lib Dem how about a party for some real change!
Why don't they get more votes anyway? Isn't equality not one of the greatest human virtues we could try achieve?
I think I will probably give them a vote next year, anyone else?
See 20th Century History for reasons why they don't more votes than they do. Socialism and Communism do not work; they have to be forced onto people through acts of terror and repression. Here in Britain, the most left wing government we've had would be the Labour government 1945-1951, even then they didn't go to the extremes of any Socialist Workers Party.
Even the ones that do work do very little work. A guy I went to school with is a member, when I worked with him I never saw him doing any work, every time I went past his desk he was messing about creating his own website. Eventually the manager tracked his internet use and sacked him, but he went to a tribunal and got his job back. He was also the union rep which probably had something to do with it.
Comments
Key word "unrelated" I think the problem you're having is that your point was no such thing.
An extremist is an extremist whichever label they wear.
So you think that extreme idealism is just as bad as advocating fear, hate and violence?
And do you think that a far left party (like I assume the SWP is) is just as dangerous for Britain today as the BNP is? Personally I would say that both have very little or hardly any impact, but I think the BNP is more dangerous given the amount of immigration you have in Britain and the fact that racism is still very much prevalent in some parts of the country (and the BNP seems to fuel racism). As for the SWP, what harm do they do apart from being maybe naive and rigid in their views?
Unfortunately the left is very fragmented at the moment and there is a lot of infighting that is hampering our cause.
So who should a far left supporter in Britain vote for these days? And what's wrong with farmers' markets?
Farmer's markets are a free market, where the price is set by demand. That surely is everything the SWP stands against. Sadly for them, what they seem to stand for is old style soviet socialism, don't think many people believe in that any more.
Do they really stand for old-style soviet socialism? I thought they were Trotskyists?
As for farmers' markets, I don't know how they really work in Britain (it is way too expensive in Edinburgh so I never go to it), but in Greece they are just places where you can get fresh fruit and vegetables very cheaply and small local producers sell their stuff; they are the people's market, so to speak. Surely a socialist wouldn't have a problem with that.
To be honest that is a difficult one. I couldn't vote for the SWP in the same way I couldn't vote for Labour. I look out for other socialist parties and judge accordingly. I admit I have a problem with the SWP and quite a few members I have met. It's not that they are bad or anything it's just a very wet form of socialism in my book.
Having lived in Italy and France I have seen real farmers markets where it is the normal farming person that comes down with their produce and sells it. Many of the so called farmer's markets in the UK are in reality an excuse to sell 'posh' food and overly inflated prices. Don't get me wrong, I love good food but am not taken in by the falseness of many British farmer's markets.
I DO NOT AGREE with Banker's Bonuses NOR DO I AGREE with Public sector workers (and Post Office workers) thinking they can stamp their feet and throw a hissy fit because their unreasonable demands are not met. Neither are likely to gain much public support in these hard times, and if anything turn more people against them.
What they should remember is that the unions are doing more harm than good and if the strike goes ahead they may not have jobs to walk back into (if the company goes under) due to their own arrogance.
Remember that there are many workers out there who have LOST their jobs or suffered from pay cuts and freezes so why do these unions think they are something special????
However, in the UK, the left are just too factionalised to be trusted. The infighting, the backbiting, the doctrinal differences... It's tiring. When they preach equality, yet they can't embrace their fellow travellers... I can't support them electorally. Look at the two most recent examples, with the Scottish Socialist Party in Glasgow and RESPECT down London. Both of them fell apart through simple power struggles, through whingy, hand-wringy doctrinal issues or simply one person getting too big for his boots.
Until these parties start to grow up and act like adults they won't get the trust they need from the electorate - no matter how good their policies are.
And what happens when the redistribution sucks the ambition out of the populous, why take more responsibility and liability for no more reward, a society that melts into mediocrity that then requires the threat of a Gulag or Polonium Coffee to drive it to succeed, no thanks.
The left is like that everywhere I think, not just in Britain. I too find it tiresome. However, a left-wing person once told me that this happens because left-wing people are more critical and idealistic and they analyse things too much, so they are bound to always have differences (unlike the right and generally the establishment parties that care primarily about getting things done, i.e. getting into government). Or maybe left-wingers are just a bit too self-righteous. I think there might be some truth in both statements. It is ironic really that the left is supposed to be about community, and that left-wing parties fail to be in community with each other.
Extreme?
Here are some of the Socialist parties views:
Afghan conflict: Stop the war now
Apprenticeships? Yes, but not at any price!
Social care in crisis
Fight the fire service cuts
Needed – a party for workers, not bosses
Sri Lanka: Shut down the camps!
Young parents need support, not attacks
Fighting against outsourcing, defending working conditions at British Telecom
Foreign aid - chaining the world to capitalism
The main parties say: 'Work until you drop'
Victory to postal workers
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/8208
Well you won't have to wait for a revolution that will probably never happen, it will probably all kick off again once the Tories take over.
I look forward to seeing your hard man reports from riot central.
I'll be able to leave them to Deep Purple in that case, and happy to do to.
I've always defined my politics around the song Imagine by John Lennon. I do believe we just could get their one day.:)
Nation states are ridiculous and unecessary, I'm definitely not British, never want to be identified with those disgusting far-right flags like the union jack and st.Georges cross.
Alan events that have occurred have proved you wrong indeed.
Well said.
What would be better global governance and permanent revolution?
See 20th Century History for reasons why they don't more votes than they do. Socialism and Communism do not work; they have to be forced onto people through acts of terror and repression. Here in Britain, the most left wing government we've had would be the Labour government 1945-1951, even then they didn't go to the extremes of any Socialist Workers Party.
And pray at the Church of Che.