What makes a convincing soap villain and not a Panto villain.

nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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What makes a convincing soap baddie / bitch. Ronnie is my personal favourite as she has a good reason for being the way she is ie to protect Roxy and Amy but people like Silas had no reason to kill people.

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  • mojo5000mojo5000 Posts: 54,086
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    A decent actor firstly and shades of grey in their personality/actions. I can't remember where I read it but a villain shouldn't be played as a villain because they don't see themselves that way.
  • nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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    Bump. What does make a convincing soap villain and not a panto villain?

    Should they arrive as a villain or should this develop over time? What sorta stuff happems to turn someone into a villain?
  • haphashhaphash Posts: 21,448
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    mojo5000 wrote: »
    A decent actor firstly and shades of grey in their personality/actions. I can't remember where I read it but a villain shouldn't be played as a villain because they don't see themselves that way.

    This. The character needs some motivation for their actions and some depth.
  • nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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    Yeah I think its important that they don't see themselves as bad. Like Babe in Eastenders did it all to help Mick. She does it all to help
  • jonparadisejonparadise Posts: 6,039
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    Years ago I remember reading an interview with the EP of Neighbours (back in 2003-04 when it was doing very well) and he described the way they wrote characters consistently.

    All characters had 4 traits to their personality.

    The 'good' characters had 3 positive traits and 1 negative, the 'bad' characters had 3 negative traits and 1 positive.

    Essentially it meant the bad characters still had that 1 likeable aspect to their personality that meant they were still relatable to by the viewers, rather than being Panto villains.

    If anyone watched it at the time, Izzy Hoyland was his creation, and a good example of a complex character who still had redeeming qualities.
  • nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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    Years ago I remember reading an interview with the EP of Neighbours (back in 2003-04 when it was doing very well) and he described the way they wrote characters consistently.

    All characters had 4 traits to their personality.

    The 'good' characters had 3 positive traits and 1 negative, the 'bad' characters had 3 negative traits and 1 positive.

    Essentially it meant the bad characters still had that 1 likeable aspect to their personality that meant they were still relatable to by the viewers, rather than being Panto villains.

    If anyone watched it at the time, Izzy Hoyland was his creation, and a good example of a complex character who still had redeeming qualities.

    I dont follow Neighbours so what was Izzy like?
  • 0...00...0 Posts: 21,111
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    I always prefer goodish characters with some weakness that forces them into a villainous path. Chrissie Watts was the last great villain in EE. No one else has come close.
  • jonparadisejonparadise Posts: 6,039
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    I dont follow Neighbours so what was Izzy like?

    She was a hot mess. :D

    She got up to all sorts of no good, but most of it was due to her own insecurities with men and some of her deeds were prompted by loyalty to her family, then trying to protect her unborn child. She often thought she was doing the right thing.

    Her character (and the show) lost it a bit towards the end of her tenure, but that was due to TV network meddling more than anything else.
  • Alex250PAlex250P Posts: 1,474
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    If you can sort of sympathise with their actions I think.

    I remember when Kirsty was abusing Tyrone on Corrie, a brilliant storyline and I absolutely hated her for being so awful to Tyrone, but I remember when they brought her parents in and it was uncovered that her father was abusive and Kirsty was so intimidated by him I felt really sorry for her.
  • VIP101VIP101 Posts: 1,587
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    Ronnie Mitchell has to be one of the greatest villains. So does Janine Butcher.

    Mercedes McQueen, Grace Black, Sienna Blake, Warren Fox, Trevor Royal and Brendan Brady.

    What they all have in common is we have seen them develop into their villainess or we have seen why they are the way they are.

    A good villain has reasoning (often not the same reasoning of a sane person) and their behaviour has to spiral from one action to another. Rather then someone like Richard Hillman who just killed for the sake of killing and money.
  • nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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    I always found Kim Tate and Tracy Barlow both very panto villain.

    Mercedes McQueen is definitely not a villain. She is just a immoral slapper.

    I can't think of a single current villain like character whose wrongdoings have some sort of background story. The last good one was Ronnie Mitchell. All her plotting and wrongdoings (murder) stemmed from her being raped by Archie and her desperation to protect Roxy.
  • LMLM Posts: 63,327
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    I think it can come down to the choice in actor

    That's why Tracy is so bad. Because Kate ford is.
    Same with Sam Womack and the poor attempts to make Ronnie a villain, which never really worked
  • lotty27lotty27 Posts: 17,858
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    Yeah I think its important that they don't see themselves as bad. Like Babe in Eastenders did it all to help Mick. She does it all to help

    That's a very good point. Babe could rationalise her every bad/evil act away and always thought she was in the right which is quite a feat! It's also quite a feat that even after the horrible things she did you could still sympathise with her a bit when you heard about her upbringing and relationship with her vile sister who constantly put her down, sneered and laughed at her. She was the beautiful swan (only on the outside though) to Babe's ugly sister :( I might not have liked Babe but I understood how she turned out like she did. A good soap baddie.
    Alex250P wrote: »
    If you can sort of sympathise with their actions I think.

    I remember when Kirsty was abusing Tyrone on Corrie, a brilliant storyline and I absolutely hated her for being so awful to Tyrone, but I remember when they brought her parents in and it was uncovered that her father was abusive and Kirsty was so intimidated by him I felt really sorry for her.

    Again another good example and have you noticed neither of them are murderers? Just complex women badly affected by their upbringings.


    A soap baddie doesn't have to be a murderer and I sometimes think the soaps forget this. Take Corrie's Phelan for example, he was just a bad man until recently. A villain yes but to me he was believable because there's people out there like him who would con their neighbours, blackmail (Garry, Owen and Anna) He'd even argue that he gave Anna the choice and didn't force her, she could have walked away at any time, it was an arrangement which he stuck to. So not nice but a character who could have stayed long term.

    But they just had to sensationalise it all by having him going too far not getting help for Michael when he had a heart attack, instead us and Michael were treated to a stage-like soliloquy! Taunting the man when he was in his death throes. Then later going even further by murdering Andy so now he has a shelf life yet we still don't know a thing about him. Nothing at all. Other than finding him amusing at times there's nothing to relate to.

    So to me Phelan started out as a good 'baddie' but has descended into caricature because more often than not soaps (particularly ITV ones) just can't help themselves.
  • nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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    I know it isn't a soap but Claire and Frank Underwood of House of Cards are both great villains. Both power craving and ruthless to get what they want (Claire more convincing than Frank).
  • Collins1965Collins1965 Posts: 13,806
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    Depth. Some insight into why they are the way they are. A good actor helps. For example Rosie Marcel in Holby City plays Jac who is a real bitch at times but manages to portray hurt and regret in her eyes at times which makes her likeable for me.
  • thejoyof_patthejoyof_pat Posts: 30,674
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    No mustache
  • nightwish1990nightwish1990 Posts: 1,502
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    I think soaps have a tendency of portraying villains as rich.

    Emmerdale - Chrissie White, Nathan Wylde, Kim Tate, Jai Sharma

    Eastenders - Janine Butcher, Ronnie Mitchell, Phil Mitchell

    Hollyoaks - Grace Black, Warren Fox
  • Jack_ClintonJack_Clinton Posts: 2,495
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    The good villain are those who you want to get away with it again and again because the actors are fantastic (e.g. Phelan (CS), Emma Barton (ED) and Charity Dingle (ED) - all three fantastic characters who have layers. It took a while before Phelan and Emma became killers.
  • Hollyoaks14Hollyoaks14 Posts: 1,891
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    The good villain are those who you want to get away with it again and again because the actors are fantastic (e.g. Phelan (CS), Emma Barton (ED) and Charity Dingle (ED) - all three fantastic characters who have layers. It took a while before Phelan and Emma became killers.

    As long as they don't get away with it for too long. I hate those 3!
  • VIP101VIP101 Posts: 1,587
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    I always found Kim Tate and Tracy Barlow both very panto villain.

    Mercedes McQueen is definitely not a villain. She is just a immoral slapper.

    I can't think of a single current villain like character whose wrongdoings have some sort of background story. The last good one was Ronnie Mitchell. All her plotting and wrongdoings (murder) stemmed from her being raped by Archie and her desperation to protect Roxy.

    You think Mercedes is just a immoral slapper? Erm have you watched it when she stabbed herself and framed Mitzeee, fake kidnapped her own son framing Mitzeee and conning £500,000 in ransom money, covering up her only friends murder, fake kidnapping herself to con her husband, going onto kill her husband then covering up the murder by even pretending a new born baby had died who needed a blood donor, leaving Grace to kill Freddie, shooting Grace leaving her unable to get pregnant, faking her own death to frame Freddie... There's loads more she's done I haven't mentioned which isn't just her being a 'slapper'! I think it's safe to say Mercedes is classed as a villain in certain SL's!
  • AntoniaAAntoniaA Posts: 6,640
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    Being realistically manipulative and evil, having no conscience and not providing humour. Pat Phelan is an example of a real villain. Aunt Babe is another one. Both quite chilling (very well acted).

    Panto villains in soaps are usually funny and their crimes not as extreme as the above.
  • SuperPilkoSuperPilko Posts: 80
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    Not hamming it up for a start, too many villains go way overboard with the way they deliver lines, facial expressions etc
  • scintillascintilla Posts: 438
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    I never really saw Ronnie (EE) as a villain.
  • davejc64davejc64 Posts: 6,077
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    Look no further than the great King Phelan in Corrie for what makes a convincing soap villain. :D
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