Moffatt Sloppy Writing??

DavidusDavidus Posts: 201
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Apologies if I am a bit slow here but something occured to me whilst watching the 50th Anniversary DVD I ordered to watch with my daughter, which I am presuming that many here have already twigged on and thought through.

When the Doctors did there circling around Gallifrey bit at the end, the Time Lords spoke along the lines of,

Dear Lord, twelve of them. Something something mutter something
Then another Time Lord corrected saying, "No, all THIRTEEN of them".

(The inference being that Peter Calpaldi was the thirteenth Doctor)

So moving forward to the next episode where we see Matt Smith's regeneration. We are told that the inclusion of the War-Doctor, and the 'regeneration' leading to the Meta-crisis Doctor bump the numbers of regeneration to twelve, and thus Matt Smith is now the thirteenth Doctor, and that PC is the first of a new set of regenerations.

Is this just sloppy writing on Moffatt's part? or did he get greedy and wanted to simply be the man who sets Doctor Who on a whole new set of regenerations (boasting 'I did that') by not waiting around til another actor plays the role but by including a hither to unknown incarnation of the Doctor in the 50th??

Hopefully this doesn't come across too much as 'having a go' at SM. I do think he is the best writer at individual stories (be it one or two episodes) but not so good at a series arc. But was just reflecting on the 50th episode (with hindsight I guess) and feel a tad disappointed to have been 'robbed' (for want of a better word) of an incarnation of the Doctor.

We pretty much all wished to have see more of McGann as the Doctor, and now we have another Doctor where we might not ever see anymore of (other than in Big Finish etc).

Anyway, just wanted to air out my thoughts.

Comments

  • Twonky2000Twonky2000 Posts: 344
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    It's not sloppy writing. Clearly the Time Lords are counting the Tenth Doctor and the Meta-Crisis Doctor as the same Doctor with the same face (albeit soneone who regenerated into that form twice). What's more - given that only one version of the Tenth Doctor turns up to save Gallifrey (we don't have Doctor Brown Suit and Doctor Blue Suit), he can only be counted once. The same cannot be said for the Seventh Doctor, however, who turns up separately in both Battlefield and TV movie outfits.
  • The GathererThe Gatherer Posts: 2,723
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    Why the question marks in the thread title?
  • Xmas_TrenzaloreXmas_Trenzalore Posts: 550
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    I don't know if we'll see him in Big Finish, since they only have the rights to the Classic Doctors as of now. We'll probably get books and comics though.

    I don't think its sloppy writing. Would it be more intuitive if each Doctor were numbered in a linear decimal system, sure. But does it really matter? Nah, I don't think so.

    We weren't robbed of a Doctor, since there's going to be more. It can be a little weird to not have expectations fulfilled: that There would be 12 regenerations, 13 Doctors, then a new set or whatever, but it's just numbers.

    Matt Smith is the 11th to carry the name of the Doctor, the 12th incarnation/personality, and the 13th body if we count the second David Tennant incarnation. No biggie.
  • DavidusDavidus Posts: 201
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    Questions Marks in title as I wasn't convinced it was sloppy writing or not :p

    Good point on McCoys Doctor - wasn't sharp enough to have spotted the different clothing.

    If you all think its no biggie then fair enough - just thought it strange that PC was the THIRTEENTH doctor (as implied by the Time Lords) then subsequently lo and behold he is the first of a new batch of sontarans....oops, Doctors I mean.

    Moffat can breathe easy again, at least from the likes of me lol :D
  • bp2bp2 Posts: 1,117
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    Davidus wrote: »
    Questions Marks in title as I wasn't convinced it was sloppy writing or not :p

    I find it funny that you are accusing people of sloppy writing when you put two question marks after one question in the title for a question that isn't important or deserves any emphasis using punctuation. (It is one of the things I dislike about the internet that people frequently use multiple exclamation or question marks for no reason at all. With exclamation marks in most cases the statement doesn't even deserve one exclamation mark let alone more than one exclamation mark) Also it is Moffat not Moffatt.

    Back to the topic of this thread I do not understand how adding a new incarnation is sloppy writing.
  • StarsabovemeStarsaboveme Posts: 72
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    Give the poor OP a break! He was asking, not accusing. He genuinely didn't know the answer to his question, he accepted the explanation he was given, and has acknowledged that in that case it is not slopping writing after all. What more can he do!
  • CD93CD93 Posts: 13,939
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    The Time Lords were all locked away when the meta-crisis Doctor became a thing. They weren't to know.
  • claire2281claire2281 Posts: 17,283
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    From what I understand of it, Moffat wanted Nine to play the War Doctor's role (which would've been odd since Nine is seemingly not long regenerated in Rose) but when CE wouldn't do it he made up all the War Doctor stuff instead. So it wasn't planned from the start. I loved John Hurt but I do wonder why they didn't just get McGann in and have him be the one to 'press the button'. Would've made more sense.

    Yes, Moffat does have the occasionally messy bit of writing plot wise but since he openly admits that he doesn't really plan anything and just keeps it all in his head that's hardly surprising! Tbh that doesn't bug me as much as his so-so character work which is the real weakness of his writing in DW.
  • DavidusDavidus Posts: 201
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    bp2 wrote: »
    I find it funny that you are accusing people of sloppy writing when you put two question marks after one question in the title for a question that isn't important or deserves any emphasis using punctuation. (It is one of the things I dislike about the internet that people frequently use multiple exclamation or question marks for no reason at all. With exclamation marks in most cases the statement doesn't even deserve one exclamation mark let alone more than one exclamation mark) Also it is Moffat not Moffatt.

    Back to the topic of this thread I do not understand how adding a new incarnation is sloppy writing.

    What????? :p

    As 'Starsaboveme' has said, I wasn't accusing, merely asking for clarification. Maybe not worded brilliantly so apologies for that (and for the multiple question marks).

    And, to clarify if I may, I wasn't so much as querying the inclusion of a new incarnation (well, not directly), as attempting to understand why in one episode he was implied as being the thirteenth Doctor, then in the next episode, he turns out to be the first of a new set of regenerations (the query of sloppy writing).

    I also pointed out that it seems to be a missed opportunity to have an incarnation where we do not see many of his adventures on screen, but as 'claire2281' as put forward, it is to a degree understandable why it was written the way it was (although I do agree McGann, if available, would have been perhaps a better choice to have cast and further link the classic who to nu-who).

    But be that as it may, my query is now resolved but please feel free to make whatever points you wish either at my poor understanding, or grammar.

    Thank you :)
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    I'd say that the point made by the OP isn't an example of sloppy writing, but that the inclusion of the 'War Doctor' in Name and Day certainly was.

    Seriously, The Doctor has always been open about the fact he committed genocide in the Time War. He's always been upfront about his actions, and his companions are more or less always aware of his role in the Time War. Most companions also know he changes his face through regeneration regularly and don't really know which Doctor was around for what events in his personal timeline and aside from Clara there's seldom a companion who actually gets to physically see many of his faces at all. So why from an in-universe perspective would it be a shocking revelation that The Doctor had an 'extra regeneration' whose face he has kept secret? Why did he bother to keep the face he had secret, when he's never tried to keep his identity secret when he was in the Time War? Why did it matter what face he had when everyone knew it was him anyway and nobody in-universe particularly cared which did it? Why? ...well sloppy writing is why. It's nothing more than a jarring attempt to commit some stunt casting. John Hurt is admittedly brilliant, but bloody hell did they go the long way about getting him into it in the most nonsensical way possible. The "shock twist" makes sense from a viewers perspective, but not from an in-universe perspective. Worse still, they don't even try to sustain the idea that he kind of isn't the Doctor - in his first scene with Tennant and Smith, he was having a friendly and banterous exchange. He really was The Doctor in every regard.

    I was so disappointed by this whole concept. All it's achieved is the messing up of a 50 year Doctor-numbering legacy, and was all done for the sake of a story which undid the biggest moral crutch the series had going for it this past decade. :(
  • Philip_LambPhilip_Lamb Posts: 287
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    To be fair you can't solely blame Moffat. RTD created the confusion when he created the metacrisis Doctor. He's not a Doctor, but he's a waste of an incarnation.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    Davidus wrote: »
    And, to clarify if I may, I wasn't so much as querying the inclusion of a new incarnation (well, not directly), as attempting to understand why in one episode he was implied as being the thirteenth Doctor, then in the next episode, he turns out to be the first of a new set of regenerations (the query of sloppy writing).
    As Phillip_Lamb says, from the perspective of who the 'real' Doctor is, the meta-crisis copy isn't, he's a half-human duplicate. In a way, he's no more 'Doctor' than either Jenny or the Flesh avatar version. A regeneration was used up, but it didn't result in a new incarnation.
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    To be fair you can't solely blame Moffat. RTD created the confusion when he created the metacrisis Doctor. He's not a Doctor, but he's a waste of an incarnation.

    Yep, they're both to blame for that little element. I think I resent Moffat's approach to it a little more though as his War Doctor concept was so poor, and the whole thing from there simply felt rushed to the point of him simply trying to make his stamp on continuity by being the one to resolve the 'regeneration limit' issue.

    Still, I'm just glad it's all over and done with now. We've had two series dealing with arcs revolving around the death of the Doctor and a focus on the regeneration limit... we know deep down he isn't going to die, so there's no sense of threat, so I'm excited by the prospect of more interesting stories ahead! :)
  • Philip_LambPhilip_Lamb Posts: 287
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    The whole special felt rushed. I mean all of a sudden Clara isn't a babysitter but has become a teacher? Just to shoehorn a Coalhill reference in there.
    I could have done without the Zygon subplot and how did they manage to get a hold of the Time Lord tech to freeze time and create the paintings, you know the technology that Queen Elizabeth understood without having it explained to her.
    Cue posts telling me I'm just a Moffat hater maaaaaaaaaan
  • CD93CD93 Posts: 13,939
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    If, of course, there was never a chance of having a piece of Gallifreyan art fall in to alien hands.

    I doubt the Stasis Cubes were kept in the Omega arsenal :p But then, even the Time Lord's most valuable and dangerous weapons apparently aren't guarded.

    But I shouldn't try to make sense of anything, I'll just be called a Moffat ass-kisser.
  • Benjamin SiskoBenjamin Sisko Posts: 1,921
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    Yep, they're both to blame for that little element. I think I resent Moffat's approach to it a little more though as his War Doctor concept was so poor, and the whole thing from there simply felt rushed to the point of him simply trying to make his stamp on continuity by being the one to resolve the 'regeneration limit' issue.

    Still, I'm just glad it's all over and done with now. We've had two series dealing with arcs revolving around the death of the Doctor and a focus on the regeneration limit... we know deep down he isn't going to die, so there's no sense of threat, so I'm excited by the prospect of more interesting stories ahead! :)

    Honestly, I'm just grateful to Moffat from saving us 3 or more years of "WHAT HAPPENS WHEN TWELVE DIES" "LAST INCARNATION" "REGENERATION LIMIT" "END OF THE SHOW" and so on.

    Hopefully it'll be several decades before that rears its ugly head again...! :D
  • Face Of JackFace Of Jack Posts: 7,181
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    Honestly, I'm just grateful to Moffat from saving us 3 or more years of "WHAT HAPPENS WHEN TWELVE DIES" "LAST INCARNATION" "REGENERATION LIMIT" "END OF THE SHOW" and so on.

    Hopefully it'll be several decades before that rears its ugly head again...! :D

    Yay Benjamin!! Me too.
    Right - let's get on with a fresh start like it was in the old days!! :):) And we'll take it from there......
  • claire2281claire2281 Posts: 17,283
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    The whole special felt rushed. I mean all of a sudden Clara isn't a babysitter but has become a teacher? Just to shoehorn a Coalhill reference in there.

    Obviously some time was supposed to have passed since Name. A couple of years in Clara's life at least. Presumably she and 11 have been on many adventures in the meantime. A similar thing happened in Amy's era where we skipped years of her life and it was just presumed she had various adventures with the Doctor.
  • TheophileTheophile Posts: 2,931
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    Actually, this is one of the very few bits of non-sloppy writing by Moffat. He canonized and cleaned up the numbering.

    Now, most of everything else he ever wrote was sloppy. LOL! :)
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