Can’t believe people are still coming out with this…
Sebastian was outperforming his machinery before he ever landed in the Red Bull seat. In his first season he took a Toro Rosso to places it had no business being, including first place at Monza in horrible conditions.
He has comprehensively beaten Webber over their five seasons together – don’t forget that in 2010 Vettel had a lot of reliability issues and at times Webber and Alonso were able to take advantage of that. He fully deserved that title and also the 2012 title where he performed under huge pressure in Brazil to claw his way back to the position he needed. Mentally he’s stronger than Alonso and Hamilton, and he’s a hell of a lot more consistent.
I suspect that in the same car he would beat Hamilton and against Alonso it would be too close to call, but really we just can’t know for sure. What I do know is that four championships in a row requires a great car but also a phenomenal driver.
It makes me laugh when I read that some think there should be different winners almost each race, if you follow that logic then for example football teams should win matches in turn to share out victories. Competition is not about having a warm feeling due to sharing out podiums or cups. The winner(s) must be whatever the the result is, that is fair competition in an unfare world. You do not have a level playing field in lots of sport as money is not divided out in equal amounts and the fact is life is not like that. An F1 team with low income getting a top ten finnish is a victory to them and a driver learning his/her trade will jump for joy if can beat his/her team mate and then the weather can make a result look strange but a wet race with a driver who can drive to suit the conditions will often surprise everone and for that driver a podium place could be a carear highlite. When Tiger Woods was winning everything the rest had to get better and they did.
3) Vettel has never produced what I would term an awe-inspiring drive. Pretty much all his wins have come from the front, and of those where he didn't start at the front he is invariably in the lead early on. Even in the shock win at Monza in the Toro Rosso, his teammate Bourdais had qualified in fourth place, so his car was generally quick in those conditions, it wasn't as if he came from nowhere to produce that drive. Until Vettel produces a drive of the standard of Alonso in Valencia last year, or Hamilton at Silverstone in 2008, or Raikkonen at Suzuka in 2005, or even Button's in Canada a couple of years ago, he won't be considered as a true great of the sport.
I agree with your point here. I believe all of Vettel's race wins have come from a starting position of 3rd or better. When you think of Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and even Schumacher, they have all had incredible drives to overcome a lot more adversity and from further back in the pack to win than Vettel seemingly ever has.
I'm not one of those people living in denial about his talent as you cannot deny the fact that he's an extremely talented driver (he showed this as a BMW test driver for starters) and is probably the best at managing the terrible Pirelli tyres, but I think in this generation of such great drivers, it's just unfair that Alonso, for example, has had to put up with a terrible car year after year whilst Vettel gets to drive a rocketship.
I must say I'm finding this level of dominance even more boring than Schumacher's because of the reliability of the cars these days, it just seems more predictable than ever, especially if Vettel gets to the first corner in first. Plus it probably doesn't help being a McLaren fan either!
I agree with your point here. I believe all of Vettel's race wins have come from a starting position of 3rd or better. When you think of Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and even Schumacher, they have all had incredible drives to overcome a lot more adversity and from further back in the pack to win than Vettel seemingly ever has.
I'm not one of those people living in denial about his talent as you cannot deny the fact that he's an extremely talented driver (he showed this as a BMW test driver for starters) and is probably the best at managing the terrible Pirelli tyres, but I think in this generation of such great drivers, it's just unfair that Alonso, for example, has had to put up with a terrible car year after year whilst Vettel gets to drive a rocketship.
I must say I'm finding this level of dominance even more boring than Schumacher's because of the reliability of the cars these days, it just seems more predictable than ever, especially if Vettel gets to the first corner in first. Plus it probably doesn't help being a McLaren fan either!
They may not have been wins, but Vettel certainly had to overcome adversity last year at Abu Dhabi (starting from the pit lane and finishing third) and Brazil (spinning on the first lap and fighting back to win the championship).
I agree that Alonso has been a bit unlucky with his machinery recently but I think the performance difference in the cars is exaggerated a tad. The Ferrari has not been a dog and the Red Bull has not been a rocketship for the past four years, though it's obvious that one team is far superior in terms of development than the other.
I do wonder if certain character traits of Alonso's have stood against him in terms of getting into the best cars and getting the support of the team (not trying to wind anyone up, just genuinely curious). He does tend to throw his toys out of the pram when things don't go his way and has acted in a pretty underhanded manner in the past. If it's true that he put himself forward for the vacant Red Bull seat in the summer I'm not surprised that they weren't interested, it would have been war.
Thing is, in an era when a driver needed to be "scrappy" then Hamilton might have won the championship every year.
As things are, F1 is all about maximising every possible advantage and optimising every facet of the task and Vettel really IS brilliant at doing that and he's not half bad at the wheel-to-wheel stuff either.
Thing is, the way he always does just enough to ensure victory is really masterful.
He does just enough to break DRS within the first 3 laps and then he does just enough to build a solid lead while managing tyre wear at the same time and then, only at the end of the race, when victory is all but assured, he seems to reward himself by having a bit of fun by using remaining tyre life to set fastest laps etc.
It's an incredibly mature and smart way to drive.
But...
I'd be interested to see how that attitude manifested itself in a mediocre car.
I wonder whether he'd be the sort of driver, like Hamilton, who'd fight for every position even if it means ruining his tyres and, ultimately, having a detrimental effect on his race or whether he'd be more like di Resta, who seems to treat every race as a test session and rarely attempts to do anything contrary to a pre-existing race strategy?
He's certainly not afraid of the wheel-to-wheel stuff but he's in the lucky position of knowing that his car is likely to be superior to any car he's going wheel-to-wheel with so there's nothing to discourage him from doing it.
If he was in a less able car I wonder whether he'd remain as cool-headed and successful, whether he'd be slower or whether he'd become more reckless?
Those who state that it is all down to the car and just about any reasonably top driver could win the title in the RB both overestimate how superior the RB is and understimate Vettel's talents.
I hated the way he screwed Webber earlier in the season, but generally to me he comes across as an OK guy ( much more than I ever found with Schumacher ), not really arrogant, just for better or for worse he is a supreme winner so yes, watch your back, especially if you are his teammate.
As to his talents, let's as I say dismiss the silly "anyone could win..." stuff and more usefully debate as much as we can where he currently stands.
I think that this last year or so has shown him to be an improving driver, being better now in wheel to wheel combat. Yes, he is very often out in front from the start, but when he isn't he to my mind is much more efficient, indeed ruthless, about making up places than he used to be. He is a more confident and efficient overtaker than he was even just 2 or 3 years ago when he could sit behind more in what I thought was a superior car.
Frankly the only current racer who I think may overall be better than him is Alonso. A settled Hamilton, at peace with himself maybe, but I still tend to think Vettel would outdo Hamilton for race maturity and consistency even in the same car.
As of now though, to my mind, on recent form over this last year I do not think anyone can definitely be put ahead of Vettel. Clearly he is in the best car and we may all have suspicions as to 1, 2, 3, half the grid etc being better than him, but I would suggest no proof. For myself, my unproven thought is that only Alonso is maybe ahead.
I hated the way he screwed Webber earlier in the season, but generally to me he comes across as an OK guy ( much more than I ever found with Schumacher ), not really arrogant, just for better or for worse he is a supreme winner so yes, watch your back, especially if you are his teammate.
Must say, I don't really get all the "arrogant" comments at all.
If anything, it's easy to watch him win, watch him wave that bloody finger around and assume he's arrogant but then, if you actually listen to his interviews, or see him on other TV shows such as Top Gear, he's about the most down-to-Earth guy you'd ever hope to see.
If anything, he comes across as a bit of a "geek".
Obviously he's got a burning determination to win when he's in the car but, much as I'd sometimes like to, I can't find much arrogance in him at all.
I think some people just project that onto him as a result of his on-track performances.
Can’t believe people are still coming out with this…
Sebastian was outperforming his machinery before he ever landed in the Red Bull seat. In his first season he took a Toro Rosso to places it had no business being, including first place at Monza in horrible conditions.
He has comprehensively beaten Webber over their five seasons together – don’t forget that in 2010 Vettel had a lot of reliability issues and at times Webber and Alonso were able to take advantage of that. He fully deserved that title and also the 2012 title where he performed under huge pressure in Brazil to claw his way back to the position he needed. Mentally he’s stronger than Alonso and Hamilton, and he’s a hell of a lot more consistent.
I suspect that in the same car he would beat Hamilton and against Alonso it would be too close to call, but really we just can’t know for sure. What I do know is that four championships in a row requires a great car but also a phenomenal driver.
I think I am making the point that in other sports athletes can be judged solely on their skills and performance.
In motor racing/formula 1 the car makes a big difference - as is the case in cycling or yes equestrian events. They are using technology.
In other sports the best player/team on the day wins - in formula 1 the best driver doesn't necessarily cos you cannot actually tell unless they all drive identical cars!
I think I am making the point that in other sports athletes can be judged solely on their skills and performance.
In motor racing/formula 1 the car makes a big difference - as is the case in cycling or yes equestrian events. They are using technology.
In other sports the best player/team on the day wins - in formula 1 the best driver doesn't necessarily cos you cannot actually tell unless they all drive identical cars!
Err. quite right you can't actually tell for sure.
So, you were wrong to say that it was all to with the car !
Having the best car clearly is a great help ( far more so than the particular bike in cycling, which is not a good analogy, unless you meant motor cycling ? ). But Vettel is a great driver. What is unclear is just where he places among the drivers. At least, very close to the top, and possibly top, I think, although I'd possibly put Alonso ahead of him.
It's dsappointing if 1st 2nd and 3rd are almost together on the start finish straight, but the 1st place man (Vettel) is about to take he checkered flag while the 2nd and 3rd place men still have another lap to do.
I think Vettel is a great driver and deserves more recognition that he gets. He is a very good driver, you dont beat Webber on a regular bases if you arent a good driver. There is only Alonso and Kimi that are better than him on the grid at the moment. However put any driver in the RB and I think Vettel would beat them more often that not. Mainly due the clever gizmos in the that car, which he has mastered. Any driver coming into the RB seat just wont be able to catch up.
He even said in an interview, that he doesnt consider himself a great driver - certainly not in the same league as Ascari and the likes. Even though he shares records with them. He is a likeable guy, and very down to earth, far from arrogant. Not sure how some can call him arrogant.
You still have to remember hes only 26. For a 26 year old muti-millionaire he is very grounded. Just compare him to any 26 year old footballer, and you see a huge difference in attitude.
It's dsappointing if 1st 2nd and 3rd are almost together on the start finish straight, but the 1st place man (Vettel) is about to take he checkered flag while the 2nd and 3rd place men still have another lap to do.
It certainly would be. When did that happen ?
Still, yes, it is probably not good for F1 for the Red Bull with Vettel being as far and consistently ahead as they are.
But that's not their fault, it is for the other teams and drivers to rise to the challenge.
For instance McLaren had a great car at the end of 2012, and with limited rule changes they pretty much ditched that and went in a different direction for 2013. But much that happens these days at McLaren is rather strange. Time is ticking for Martin Whitmarsh.
Anyway, the radical engine and aero changes to a large extent now take all teams back to the drawing board. I do hope some can provide a real challenge in 2014.
It's obvious he only wins because he has a faster car than the others.
F1 is a joke of a 'sport'
Yep, the guy clearly has no significant ability whatsoever and it must just be pure luck what he showed pre Red Bull and how significantly he outdid Mark Webber and teammates in previous teams.
Almost certainly the Red Bull is the best car currently, but Vettel like Alonso has the ability to outperform his car.
Many folk actually quite like anyway to see the battle of the teams as well as drivers and appreciate the full picture.
"Joke of" a post .
PS : yes, I do have a problem with a sport enjoyed by millions descibed as "a joke". What you really mean is that you don't like it and that as such is fair enough.
Yep, the guy ckearly has no ability whatsoever and it must just be pure luck what he showed pre Red Bull and how significantly he outdid Mark Webber and teammates in previous teams.
Almost certainly the Red Bull is the best car currently, but Vettel like Alonso has the ability to outperform his car.
"Joke of" a post .
Don't you know that a trained monkey could win in a Red Bull? :rolleyes:
Do the Vettel naysayers really think Mark Webber is that bad of a driver...
As for the car, when has a world champion not had the best (or equal best) car? Also, it's very difficult for us as fans to really quantify the difference between the cars, we don't have all the data and even if we did most of us wouldn't understand it!
Don't you know that a trained monkey could win in a Red Bull? :rolleyes:
Do the Vettel naysayers really think Mark Webber is that bad of a driver...
As for the car, when has a world champion not had the best (or equal best) car? Also, it's very difficult for us as fans to really quantify the difference between the cars, we don't have all the data and even if we did most of us wouldn't understand it!
Yes, while I do think the Red Bull is the best car out there, what do we really know, certainly as to how significantly better ?
It is just possible that Mark Webber's points total this year is closer to the true overall level of the car and Seb has very significantly outdriven it.
Actually Webber has been unlucky at times and my guess, as I say, would be that the Red Bull is the best, but Vettel has still been masterful and very few could have done as well as he has.
Yes, while I do think the Red Bull is the best car out there, what do we really know, certainly as to how significantly better ?
It is just possible that Mark Webber's points total this year is closer to the true overall level of the car and Seb has very significantly outdriven it.
Actually Webber has been unlucky at times and my guess, as I say, would be that the Red Bull is the best, but Vettel has still been masterful and very few could have done as well as he has.
Yeah I agree it's the best car. I just find the argument that it's some kind of rocketship from a different planet a bit much!
Yes, while I do think the Red Bull is the best car out there, what do we really know, certainly as to how significantly better ?
It is just possible that Mark Webber's points total this year is closer to the true overall level of the car and Seb has very significantly outdriven it.
Actually Webber has been unlucky at times and my guess, as I say, would be that the Red Bull is the best, but Vettel has still been masterful and very few could have done as well as he has.
The problem Webber has had is that the Red bull has been specifically designed to suit Vettel's driving style. Take into account as well that Webber is quite a bit taller and heavier than Vettel and so is at a disadvantage there and you have a package that leaves him on the backfoot from the beginning.
There's no doubting that Vettel is a very good driver, and better than nearly everyone else on the grid (Alonso and, on pure speed terms, Hamilton excepted), but he still has some way to go to cement his place as one of the all-time greats.
The problem Webber has had is that the Red bull has been specifically designed to suit Vettel's driving style. Take into account as well that Webber is quite a bit taller and heavier than Vettel and so is at a disadvantage there and you have a package that leaves him on the backfoot from the beginning.
There's no doubting that Vettel is a very good driver, and better than nearly everyone else on the grid (Alonso and, on pure speed terms, Hamilton excepted), but he still has some way to go to cement his place as one of the all-time greats.
All of the teams, at least all of the top teams, design each car to the best suit the actual driver that will be driving it so that's completely wrong. Mark Webber is a great guy and a good racing driver however since his accident he has lost pace therefore Sebastian Vettel is essentially faster.
I think what you mean is that because Vettel is faster they choose a strategy that will favour him over Mark.
All of the teams, at least all of the top teams, design each car to the best suit the actual driver that will be driving it so that's completely wrong. Mark Webber is a great guy and a good racing driver however since his accident he has lost pace therefore Sebastian Vettel is essentially faster.
I think what you mean is that because Vettel is faster they choose a strategy that will favour him over Mark.
It isn't wrong, it's a fact. The Red Bull has suited Vettel's driving style over Webber's for at least the last three years. The exhaust blowing that Newey has optimised to such effect plays right into Vettel's hands, and is something that Webber has struggled to come to terms with. It's completely understandable that Red Bull builds their car to suit Vettel, he is their greatest hope of winning the title after all, but it is something that has exacerbated the difference between him and Webber.
To design a car to suit both drivers' perfectly you would need to build two completely different cars, which given how expensive it is to build one is not practical to do, so compromises have to be made, and with one driver being a multiple world champion, and the other having never won the title, it doesn't take rocket science to work out that they'll favour the one that has had the success.
It isn't wrong, it's a fact. The Red Bull has suited Vettel's driving style...
To be fair, I think it's the whole of F1 that currently suits Vettel's driving style.
If F1 was currently a glorified Formula Ford championship we might well be moaning about Hamilton now or if it was an endurance championship we might be saying the same about Alonso.
As it is, F1 is currently about extracting 99.99% from the "package" without pushing that tiny fraction too much, ruining the tyres and screwing up your race strategy.
And Vettel IS astoundingly good at that kind of driving.
It isn't wrong, it's a fact. The Red Bull has suited Vettel's driving style over Webber's for at least the last three years. The exhaust blowing that Newey has optimised to such effect plays right into Vettel's hands, and is something that Webber has struggled to come to terms with. It's completely understandable that Red Bull builds their car to suit Vettel, he is their greatest hope of winning the title after all, but it is something that has exacerbated the difference between him and Webber.
To design a car to suit both drivers' perfectly you would need to build two completely different cars, which given how expensive it is to build one is not practical to do, so compromises have to be made, and with one driver being a multiple world champion, and the other having never won the title, it doesn't take rocket science to work out that they'll favour the one that has had the success.
BIB - or vettel has adapted his style to suit the RB car.
As for designing the car, its clear the Ferrari build theres to suit Alonso, Mclaren built theres to suit Hamilton (when he was there). Red Bull to suit Vettel (although that wasnt the case when he first went there). However other teams (mainly the back of the grid teams) build a car, that the driver must then adapt to. The drivers that are more flexible in their driving style can usually manage to do this quicker than others.
Comments
Can’t believe people are still coming out with this…
Sebastian was outperforming his machinery before he ever landed in the Red Bull seat. In his first season he took a Toro Rosso to places it had no business being, including first place at Monza in horrible conditions.
He has comprehensively beaten Webber over their five seasons together – don’t forget that in 2010 Vettel had a lot of reliability issues and at times Webber and Alonso were able to take advantage of that. He fully deserved that title and also the 2012 title where he performed under huge pressure in Brazil to claw his way back to the position he needed. Mentally he’s stronger than Alonso and Hamilton, and he’s a hell of a lot more consistent.
I suspect that in the same car he would beat Hamilton and against Alonso it would be too close to call, but really we just can’t know for sure. What I do know is that four championships in a row requires a great car but also a phenomenal driver.
A plea to respect one driver while called ano names might give you a clue. :rolleyes:
I agree with your point here. I believe all of Vettel's race wins have come from a starting position of 3rd or better. When you think of Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and even Schumacher, they have all had incredible drives to overcome a lot more adversity and from further back in the pack to win than Vettel seemingly ever has.
I'm not one of those people living in denial about his talent as you cannot deny the fact that he's an extremely talented driver (he showed this as a BMW test driver for starters) and is probably the best at managing the terrible Pirelli tyres, but I think in this generation of such great drivers, it's just unfair that Alonso, for example, has had to put up with a terrible car year after year whilst Vettel gets to drive a rocketship.
I must say I'm finding this level of dominance even more boring than Schumacher's because of the reliability of the cars these days, it just seems more predictable than ever, especially if Vettel gets to the first corner in first. Plus it probably doesn't help being a McLaren fan either!
They may not have been wins, but Vettel certainly had to overcome adversity last year at Abu Dhabi (starting from the pit lane and finishing third) and Brazil (spinning on the first lap and fighting back to win the championship).
I agree that Alonso has been a bit unlucky with his machinery recently but I think the performance difference in the cars is exaggerated a tad. The Ferrari has not been a dog and the Red Bull has not been a rocketship for the past four years, though it's obvious that one team is far superior in terms of development than the other.
I do wonder if certain character traits of Alonso's have stood against him in terms of getting into the best cars and getting the support of the team (not trying to wind anyone up, just genuinely curious). He does tend to throw his toys out of the pram when things don't go his way and has acted in a pretty underhanded manner in the past. If it's true that he put himself forward for the vacant Red Bull seat in the summer I'm not surprised that they weren't interested, it would have been war.
As things are, F1 is all about maximising every possible advantage and optimising every facet of the task and Vettel really IS brilliant at doing that and he's not half bad at the wheel-to-wheel stuff either.
Thing is, the way he always does just enough to ensure victory is really masterful.
He does just enough to break DRS within the first 3 laps and then he does just enough to build a solid lead while managing tyre wear at the same time and then, only at the end of the race, when victory is all but assured, he seems to reward himself by having a bit of fun by using remaining tyre life to set fastest laps etc.
It's an incredibly mature and smart way to drive.
But...
I'd be interested to see how that attitude manifested itself in a mediocre car.
I wonder whether he'd be the sort of driver, like Hamilton, who'd fight for every position even if it means ruining his tyres and, ultimately, having a detrimental effect on his race or whether he'd be more like di Resta, who seems to treat every race as a test session and rarely attempts to do anything contrary to a pre-existing race strategy?
He's certainly not afraid of the wheel-to-wheel stuff but he's in the lucky position of knowing that his car is likely to be superior to any car he's going wheel-to-wheel with so there's nothing to discourage him from doing it.
If he was in a less able car I wonder whether he'd remain as cool-headed and successful, whether he'd be slower or whether he'd become more reckless?
I hated the way he screwed Webber earlier in the season, but generally to me he comes across as an OK guy ( much more than I ever found with Schumacher ), not really arrogant, just for better or for worse he is a supreme winner so yes, watch your back, especially if you are his teammate.
As to his talents, let's as I say dismiss the silly "anyone could win..." stuff and more usefully debate as much as we can where he currently stands.
I think that this last year or so has shown him to be an improving driver, being better now in wheel to wheel combat. Yes, he is very often out in front from the start, but when he isn't he to my mind is much more efficient, indeed ruthless, about making up places than he used to be. He is a more confident and efficient overtaker than he was even just 2 or 3 years ago when he could sit behind more in what I thought was a superior car.
Frankly the only current racer who I think may overall be better than him is Alonso. A settled Hamilton, at peace with himself maybe, but I still tend to think Vettel would outdo Hamilton for race maturity and consistency even in the same car.
As of now though, to my mind, on recent form over this last year I do not think anyone can definitely be put ahead of Vettel. Clearly he is in the best car and we may all have suspicions as to 1, 2, 3, half the grid etc being better than him, but I would suggest no proof. For myself, my unproven thought is that only Alonso is maybe ahead.
Must say, I don't really get all the "arrogant" comments at all.
If anything, it's easy to watch him win, watch him wave that bloody finger around and assume he's arrogant but then, if you actually listen to his interviews, or see him on other TV shows such as Top Gear, he's about the most down-to-Earth guy you'd ever hope to see.
If anything, he comes across as a bit of a "geek".
Obviously he's got a burning determination to win when he's in the car but, much as I'd sometimes like to, I can't find much arrogance in him at all.
I think some people just project that onto him as a result of his on-track performances.
I think I am making the point that in other sports athletes can be judged solely on their skills and performance.
In motor racing/formula 1 the car makes a big difference - as is the case in cycling or yes equestrian events. They are using technology.
In other sports the best player/team on the day wins - in formula 1 the best driver doesn't necessarily cos you cannot actually tell unless they all drive identical cars!
Err. quite right you can't actually tell for sure.
So, you were wrong to say that it was all to with the car !
Having the best car clearly is a great help ( far more so than the particular bike in cycling, which is not a good analogy, unless you meant motor cycling ? ). But Vettel is a great driver. What is unclear is just where he places among the drivers. At least, very close to the top, and possibly top, I think, although I'd possibly put Alonso ahead of him.
He even said in an interview, that he doesnt consider himself a great driver - certainly not in the same league as Ascari and the likes. Even though he shares records with them. He is a likeable guy, and very down to earth, far from arrogant. Not sure how some can call him arrogant.
You still have to remember hes only 26. For a 26 year old muti-millionaire he is very grounded. Just compare him to any 26 year old footballer, and you see a huge difference in attitude.
It certainly would be. When did that happen ?
Still, yes, it is probably not good for F1 for the Red Bull with Vettel being as far and consistently ahead as they are.
But that's not their fault, it is for the other teams and drivers to rise to the challenge.
For instance McLaren had a great car at the end of 2012, and with limited rule changes they pretty much ditched that and went in a different direction for 2013. But much that happens these days at McLaren is rather strange. Time is ticking for Martin Whitmarsh.
Anyway, the radical engine and aero changes to a large extent now take all teams back to the drawing board. I do hope some can provide a real challenge in 2014.
F1 is a joke of a 'sport'
Yep, the guy clearly has no significant ability whatsoever and it must just be pure luck what he showed pre Red Bull and how significantly he outdid Mark Webber and teammates in previous teams.
Almost certainly the Red Bull is the best car currently, but Vettel like Alonso has the ability to outperform his car.
Many folk actually quite like anyway to see the battle of the teams as well as drivers and appreciate the full picture.
"Joke of" a post .
PS : yes, I do have a problem with a sport enjoyed by millions descibed as "a joke". What you really mean is that you don't like it and that as such is fair enough.
Don't you know that a trained monkey could win in a Red Bull? :rolleyes:
Do the Vettel naysayers really think Mark Webber is that bad of a driver...
As for the car, when has a world champion not had the best (or equal best) car? Also, it's very difficult for us as fans to really quantify the difference between the cars, we don't have all the data and even if we did most of us wouldn't understand it!
Yes, while I do think the Red Bull is the best car out there, what do we really know, certainly as to how significantly better ?
It is just possible that Mark Webber's points total this year is closer to the true overall level of the car and Seb has very significantly outdriven it.
Actually Webber has been unlucky at times and my guess, as I say, would be that the Red Bull is the best, but Vettel has still been masterful and very few could have done as well as he has.
Yeah I agree it's the best car. I just find the argument that it's some kind of rocketship from a different planet a bit much!
2014 changes will be very interesting anyway...
The problem Webber has had is that the Red bull has been specifically designed to suit Vettel's driving style. Take into account as well that Webber is quite a bit taller and heavier than Vettel and so is at a disadvantage there and you have a package that leaves him on the backfoot from the beginning.
There's no doubting that Vettel is a very good driver, and better than nearly everyone else on the grid (Alonso and, on pure speed terms, Hamilton excepted), but he still has some way to go to cement his place as one of the all-time greats.
I think what you mean is that because Vettel is faster they choose a strategy that will favour him over Mark.
It isn't wrong, it's a fact. The Red Bull has suited Vettel's driving style over Webber's for at least the last three years. The exhaust blowing that Newey has optimised to such effect plays right into Vettel's hands, and is something that Webber has struggled to come to terms with. It's completely understandable that Red Bull builds their car to suit Vettel, he is their greatest hope of winning the title after all, but it is something that has exacerbated the difference between him and Webber.
To design a car to suit both drivers' perfectly you would need to build two completely different cars, which given how expensive it is to build one is not practical to do, so compromises have to be made, and with one driver being a multiple world champion, and the other having never won the title, it doesn't take rocket science to work out that they'll favour the one that has had the success.
To be fair, I think it's the whole of F1 that currently suits Vettel's driving style.
If F1 was currently a glorified Formula Ford championship we might well be moaning about Hamilton now or if it was an endurance championship we might be saying the same about Alonso.
As it is, F1 is currently about extracting 99.99% from the "package" without pushing that tiny fraction too much, ruining the tyres and screwing up your race strategy.
And Vettel IS astoundingly good at that kind of driving.
Kudos to the guy
BIB - or vettel has adapted his style to suit the RB car.
As for designing the car, its clear the Ferrari build theres to suit Alonso, Mclaren built theres to suit Hamilton (when he was there). Red Bull to suit Vettel (although that wasnt the case when he first went there). However other teams (mainly the back of the grid teams) build a car, that the driver must then adapt to. The drivers that are more flexible in their driving style can usually manage to do this quicker than others.