My 42" Pana plasma doesn't over HDMI when I have the HD box set to 720p :-(
As people keep saying, for autoswitch over HDMI the box must be set to "auto"! This means your TV takes over the scaling for SD material. Some sets do not perform this as well as the SkyHD box which is why many people leave the setting on 1080i (the box's default). I don't know the details of the technical reasons but I imagine the box scales better in many cases precisely because it doesn't have to bother itself (in 720p and 1080i modes) with other stuff like autoswitching. I believe also it is easier to downscale (as in 1080 to 768) than to upscale (as in 576 to 768).
My Sony S2530 upscales SD reasonably well and autoswitches fine on "auto" but I prefer the result from the box at 1080i. To avoid stretchivision for the few non 16:9 programmes I watch I find it more convenient to switch to the scart than fiddle through the Sky menus. The PQ on these shows is never that great anyway!
my LG42PC1d plasma tv won't auto switch between ratios over HDMI no matter what i try. Putting the box in Auto mode make no difference. It's very annoying.
my LG42PC1d plasma tv won't auto switch between ratios over HDMI no matter what i try. Putting the box in Auto mode make no difference. It's very annoying.
Switches just fine using Scart though.
Ah, LG - I knew there was another brand aside from Samsung that doesn't do it, and I'm pretty sure it's LG.
Hmmmm, let's just get this right. Are you saying Samsung, Panasonic and LG are not able to auto-switch over HDMI on any of their HD sets? Isn't this a rather big failing for such leading brands? Do they offer any excuses? Can it be that hard to implement this??
Hmmmm, let's just get this right. Are you saying Samsung, Panasonic and LG are not able to auto-switch over HDMI on any of their HD sets? Isn't this a rather big failing for such leading brands? Do they offer any excuses? Can it be that hard to implement this??
Probably because the 'standard' doesn't call for it?.
My Panasonic plasma DOES auto-switch at 720p via HDMI, but only when the source is Freeview from a Panasonic DVD recorder connected to the TV via HDMI. It's the Sky HD box that fails to implement this feature at 720p, and this is a major shortcoming that should be addressed. Sky should at least give the viewer the CHOICE of having the auto-switching facility (via HDMI at 720p or 1080i) enabled or not.
When the Sky HD box is set to output 720p or 1080i, the Sky HD box needs an option in it's software to choose between displaying 4:3 content as 4:3 pillar boxed within a 16:9 frame or stretched to fill the 16:9 frame (as it's currently displayed).
Most TV's assume 720p and 1080i is always 16:9 1:1 square pixel aspect ratio.
This needs to be done by the upscaling processing in the box. It's not normally a TV option. Only Sky can add it.
When the Sky HD box is set to output 720p or 1080i, the Sky HD box needs an option in it's software to choose between displaying 4:3 content as 4:3 pillar boxed within a 16:9 frame or stretched to fill the 16:9 frame (as it's currently displayed).
Most TV's assume 720p and 1080i is always 16:9 1:1 square pixel aspect ratio.
This needs to be done by the upscaling processing in the box. It's not normally a TV option. Only Sky can add it.
Or the TV manufacturers could add it - but it's not likely to happen either way, HDMI is supposed to be widescreen only.
As for Sky adding it to the boxes, I suspect that's not going to happen to help prevent any law suites against them. Obviously for HDMI you're talking (almost all) about LCD and Plasma - and with Plasma displaying a 4:3 image on the 16:9 screen is one of the worst causes of screen burn. By the Sky HD box not allowing this, it prevents them getting sued for new screens.
Or the TV manufacturers could add it - but it's not likely to happen either way, HDMI is supposed to be widescreen only.
As for Sky adding it to the boxes, I suspect that's not going to happen to help prevent any law suites against them. Obviously for HDMI you're talking (almost all) about LCD and Plasma - and with Plasma displaying a 4:3 image on the 16:9 screen is one of the worst causes of screen burn. By the Sky HD box not allowing this, it prevents them getting sued for new screens.
Every HD upscaling DVD player I know of has the option to display 4:3 content at the correct aspect ratio. 4:3 content on Sky One HD has the correct aspect ratio.
It's not upto the TV manufacturers - it's upto the device doing the upscaling, in this case the Sky HD box itself.
4:3 content on Sky One HD has the correct aspect ratio
Indeed it does. It's unfortunate that the correct aspect ratio in this case is 16:9!
All HD transmissions are 16:9, that is the format specification.
Channels such as Sky 1 HD are always in HD, whether native or upscaled, therefore always 16:9.
What Sky 1 do with 4:3 source material is convert it to 16:9 by stretching it vertically, but then zoom it out a bit so there are black pillarbox lines at the sides, and some cropping top and bottom. This is so that the cropping is not too extreme.
This is equivalent to the compromise letter-boxing which is done on some 4:3 channels (and on the analogue terrestrial channels) for 16:9 material.
No amount of manipulation in the STB or the TV will get you that missing information at the top and bottom (or the sides in the latter case) back. It is being removed at source and cannot be recovered as it wasn't transmitted in the first place!
My 42" Pana plasma doesn't over HDMI when I have the HD box set to 720p :-(
I have the SkyHD box set to output everything at 720p because at 1080i it's blurry, and at "auto" the SD channels look low-resolution.
Depending on the Model of Panasonic TV, you need to have it connected to the correct HDMI connector. On mine I have it connected to the HDMI 1 which when the HD box is switched on the HDMI gets called and the TV Switches to Sky.
I have a problem with the Sky HD box which seems to put out a signal on the HDMI Pin 13 (the CEC or Viera Link pin) blocking the second HDMI on the TV from being able to switch.
Hi Shunts - it's the switching of the picture size (aspect ratio) that I was criticising the Sky+HD box for it not changing automatically to the correct picture size when watching a 4:3 SD channel via HDMI at 720p. If I watch via Scart it does change, but Panasonic's DVD recorder switches via HDMI at 720p so the Sky+HD box should too!
Your comment referred to the TV auto-switching it's picture source on power-up (AV or TV). It's the size of the picture that I hate being stuck at 16:9 when watching a 4:3 programme via HDMI at 720p on my Panasonic 42" plasma.
Of course, for the first few weeks of HD operation in 2006 the Sky HD box DID auto switch with my Panasonic Viera plasma set to 1080 i (which I prefer to Auto for its SD superiority).
Then Sky decided to send a software download to make the box work 'correctly' and NOT auto switch at 1080 i.
So I do blame Sky, not Panasonic, all the way.
They have stopped the box from doing what it clearly could do as it did do it during May and June 2006!
Indeed it does. It's unfortunate that the correct aspect ratio in this case is 16:9!
All HD transmissions are 16:9, that is the format specification.
Channels such as Sky 1 HD are always in HD, whether native or upscaled, therefore always 16:9.
What Sky 1 do with 4:3 source material is convert it to 16:9 by stretching it vertically, but then zoom it out a bit so there are black pillarbox lines at the sides, and some cropping top and bottom. This is so that the cropping is not too extreme.
This is equivalent to the compromise letter-boxing which is done on some 4:3 channels (and on the analogue terrestrial channels) for 16:9 material.
No amount of manipulation in the STB or the TV will get you that missing information at the top and bottom (or the sides in the latter case) back. It is being removed at source and cannot be recovered as it wasn't transmitted in the first place!
I have my screen set to "Just Scan", which is 1:1 pixel mapping with zero overscan when it's fed 1920x1080 - I like it like that because I get better picture quality due to no scaling artefacts. The 4:3 stuff on Sky HD looks very close to standard 4:3 without overscan. I like that. If I set the Sky HD box to auto mode, it nocks the screen out of just scan mode so that's the main reason why I want to have everything upscaled by the box / broadcaster.
Hi Shunts - it's the switching of the picture size (aspect ratio) that I was criticising the Sky+HD box for it not changing automatically to the correct picture size when watching a 4:3 SD channel via HDMI at 720p. If I watch via Scart it does change, but Panasonic's DVD recorder switches via HDMI at 720p so the Sky+HD box should too!
Your comment referred to the TV auto-switching it's picture source on power-up (AV or TV). It's the size of the picture that I hate being stuck at 16:9 when watching a 4:3 programme via HDMI at 720p on my Panasonic 42" plasma.
Sorry dude, I dont think I understood it that well when I read it!
I dont think I'm getting any aspect problems on my kit. Get full screen if thats what your after!
Add another Samsung user that has to put up with Scart connection for SD stuff.
Its either manually getting the TV to add the black bars down the left & right or putting up with everyone looking like they gain 30lbs when watching a 4:3 broadcast. On an older 28" CRT it was not to bad but on a 40" TFT it makes them all look like weebles.
Sky really need to program an option to add black bars for 4:3 broadcasts whe using HDMI so that the output stays in spec.
If the HDMI output is set to 'Auto', then the Sky HD box outputs SD material in 576i format. this format includes a format flag so the TV should switch between 4:3 and 16:9. However, TVs vary in their ability to react to the flag.
If the HDMI output is set to '1080i' or '720i', then SD material is upscaled to the selected resolution. In both cases, these HD formats are defined to be 16:9 format only and consequently 4:3 SD material is shown stretched to fit the 16:9 frame.
This could have been resolved if Sky had done what my Blu-ray player does. It upscales standard DVDs, but if a 4:3 disc is played, it adds black borders to an otherwise 16:9 ouput making the picture look correct.
Having just moved from V+ to Sky HD this lack of feature really annoys me. True, having the Automatic option does half solve the issue (TV now formats 4:3 SD as 4:3) but the cost is lower picture quality (since the Sky HD no longer upscales) and also (on my Panasonic LCD) signal 'sparkles'/'crackling' when it swaps between 720p and 576.
What V+ did from day one is to upscale 4:3 SD into 720p/1080i with black bars. This was wonderful. However, this lead to a huge "I want to use all my TV's screen" vs. "I want to see images in their intended ratio" argument on Digital Spy and after a few more months Telewest added the "720 WIDE" and "1080 WIDE" options. Therefore you could select up upscale normally, or upscale and stretch. Leaving both camps happy.
Note that on V+ you cannot select "Automatic" meaning you had to pick 720p or 1080i and live with it. But to be honest V+ has a much better solution as far as the 4:3 upscaling goes.
I've got the same problems with my Samsung LE32R74 and it's really annoying. Nice tip about using the Sky remote to change aspect ratio though.
Still, it's really starting to bug me having to switch it over all the time. I'm constantly flicking through channels from HD to SD wide or SD box which used to sort itself out no problem on scart. Didn't realize how much I appreciated it until now!
There must be something they can do, has anyone concluded whether it's the TV or Sky yet?
My Panasonic plasma DOES auto-switch at 720p via HDMI, but only when the source is Freeview from a Panasonic DVD recorder connected to the TV via HDMI. It's the Sky HD box that fails to implement this feature at 720p, and this is a major shortcoming that should be addressed. Sky should at least give the viewer the CHOICE of having the auto-switching facility (via HDMI at 720p or 1080i) enabled or not.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but your Panasonic dos not auto switch at 720p via HDMI. This is something that the DVD recorder is doing that appears to be an auto switch. In fact the DVD recorder is outputting a 16:9 signal, but the recorder has included the black bands masking the visible picture to match the 4:3 standard. There would, of course, be nothing to prevent Sky adopting a similar scheme on their HD boxes and thus cut through the whole problem.
I have a problem with the Sky HD box which seems to put out a signal on the HDMI Pin 13 (the CEC or Viera Link pin) blocking the second HDMI on the TV from being able to switch.
This is a known issue with the Sky box. It is always outputting an HDMI signal even if it is just a blue screen when in standby. It prevents HDMI hubs or autoswitch units from working, and presumably auto switching TVs.
Comments
As people keep saying, for autoswitch over HDMI the box must be set to "auto"! This means your TV takes over the scaling for SD material. Some sets do not perform this as well as the SkyHD box which is why many people leave the setting on 1080i (the box's default). I don't know the details of the technical reasons but I imagine the box scales better in many cases precisely because it doesn't have to bother itself (in 720p and 1080i modes) with other stuff like autoswitching. I believe also it is easier to downscale (as in 1080 to 768) than to upscale (as in 576 to 768).
My Sony S2530 upscales SD reasonably well and autoswitches fine on "auto" but I prefer the result from the box at 1080i. To avoid stretchivision for the few non 16:9 programmes I watch I find it more convenient to switch to the scart than fiddle through the Sky menus. The PQ on these shows is never that great anyway!
Switches just fine using Scart though.
Ah, LG - I knew there was another brand aside from Samsung that doesn't do it, and I'm pretty sure it's LG.
Probably because the 'standard' doesn't call for it?.
Most TV's assume 720p and 1080i is always 16:9 1:1 square pixel aspect ratio.
This needs to be done by the upscaling processing in the box. It's not normally a TV option. Only Sky can add it.
Or the TV manufacturers could add it - but it's not likely to happen either way, HDMI is supposed to be widescreen only.
As for Sky adding it to the boxes, I suspect that's not going to happen to help prevent any law suites against them. Obviously for HDMI you're talking (almost all) about LCD and Plasma - and with Plasma displaying a 4:3 image on the 16:9 screen is one of the worst causes of screen burn. By the Sky HD box not allowing this, it prevents them getting sued for new screens.
Every HD upscaling DVD player I know of has the option to display 4:3 content at the correct aspect ratio. 4:3 content on Sky One HD has the correct aspect ratio.
It's not upto the TV manufacturers - it's upto the device doing the upscaling, in this case the Sky HD box itself.
All HD transmissions are 16:9, that is the format specification.
Channels such as Sky 1 HD are always in HD, whether native or upscaled, therefore always 16:9.
What Sky 1 do with 4:3 source material is convert it to 16:9 by stretching it vertically, but then zoom it out a bit so there are black pillarbox lines at the sides, and some cropping top and bottom. This is so that the cropping is not too extreme.
This is equivalent to the compromise letter-boxing which is done on some 4:3 channels (and on the analogue terrestrial channels) for 16:9 material.
No amount of manipulation in the STB or the TV will get you that missing information at the top and bottom (or the sides in the latter case) back. It is being removed at source and cannot be recovered as it wasn't transmitted in the first place!
You are are a living god.
I know this sounds so simple but it had never occured to me before.
TV and help switches between scart and hdmi [and pc and composite] but when I press sky it jumps back to scart.
It's been bugging me for ages and I have to use the tv remote.
Job's a good un
Thanks
Depending on the Model of Panasonic TV, you need to have it connected to the correct HDMI connector. On mine I have it connected to the HDMI 1 which when the HD box is switched on the HDMI gets called and the TV Switches to Sky.
I have a problem with the Sky HD box which seems to put out a signal on the HDMI Pin 13 (the CEC or Viera Link pin) blocking the second HDMI on the TV from being able to switch.
Shunts...
Your comment referred to the TV auto-switching it's picture source on power-up (AV or TV). It's the size of the picture that I hate being stuck at 16:9 when watching a 4:3 programme via HDMI at 720p on my Panasonic 42" plasma.
Then Sky decided to send a software download to make the box work 'correctly' and NOT auto switch at 1080 i.
So I do blame Sky, not Panasonic, all the way.
They have stopped the box from doing what it clearly could do as it did do it during May and June 2006!
I have my screen set to "Just Scan", which is 1:1 pixel mapping with zero overscan when it's fed 1920x1080 - I like it like that because I get better picture quality due to no scaling artefacts. The 4:3 stuff on Sky HD looks very close to standard 4:3 without overscan. I like that. If I set the Sky HD box to auto mode, it nocks the screen out of just scan mode so that's the main reason why I want to have everything upscaled by the box / broadcaster.
Sorry dude, I dont think I understood it that well when I read it!
I dont think I'm getting any aspect problems on my kit. Get full screen if thats what your after!
Shunts...
Its either manually getting the TV to add the black bars down the left & right or putting up with everyone looking like they gain 30lbs when watching a 4:3 broadcast. On an older 28" CRT it was not to bad but on a 40" TFT it makes them all look like weebles.
Sky really need to program an option to add black bars for 4:3 broadcasts whe using HDMI so that the output stays in spec.
If the HDMI output is set to 'Auto', then the Sky HD box outputs SD material in 576i format. this format includes a format flag so the TV should switch between 4:3 and 16:9. However, TVs vary in their ability to react to the flag.
If the HDMI output is set to '1080i' or '720i', then SD material is upscaled to the selected resolution. In both cases, these HD formats are defined to be 16:9 format only and consequently 4:3 SD material is shown stretched to fit the 16:9 frame.
This could have been resolved if Sky had done what my Blu-ray player does. It upscales standard DVDs, but if a 4:3 disc is played, it adds black borders to an otherwise 16:9 ouput making the picture look correct.
What V+ did from day one is to upscale 4:3 SD into 720p/1080i with black bars. This was wonderful. However, this lead to a huge "I want to use all my TV's screen" vs. "I want to see images in their intended ratio" argument on Digital Spy and after a few more months Telewest added the "720 WIDE" and "1080 WIDE" options. Therefore you could select up upscale normally, or upscale and stretch. Leaving both camps happy.
Note that on V+ you cannot select "Automatic" meaning you had to pick 720p or 1080i and live with it. But to be honest V+ has a much better solution as far as the 4:3 upscaling goes.
Still, it's really starting to bug me having to switch it over all the time. I'm constantly flicking through channels from HD to SD wide or SD box which used to sort itself out no problem on scart. Didn't realize how much I appreciated it until now!
There must be something they can do, has anyone concluded whether it's the TV or Sky yet?
Probably a combination. My Sky box works fine with my Sony Bravia, but others are not so lucky.
One day it'll all be broadcast in 1080 with the correct cropping and/or side bars and we'll look back on these days and laugh! :-)
Sorry to rain on your parade, but your Panasonic dos not auto switch at 720p via HDMI. This is something that the DVD recorder is doing that appears to be an auto switch. In fact the DVD recorder is outputting a 16:9 signal, but the recorder has included the black bands masking the visible picture to match the 4:3 standard. There would, of course, be nothing to prevent Sky adopting a similar scheme on their HD boxes and thus cut through the whole problem.
This is a known issue with the Sky box. It is always outputting an HDMI signal even if it is just a blue screen when in standby. It prevents HDMI hubs or autoswitch units from working, and presumably auto switching TVs.
“Auto Wide” function is available only in “TV”, “Ext1”, “Ext2”, “AV”, and “S-Video” mode."
I guess this mean the HDMI mode does not have the auto aspect function.
My parents have a newer Samsung running Virgin via HDMI and their TV auto aspects so I guess it's the TV.
Neo - "Hmmm, upgrades..."