Interesting thread and it has made me aware of a lot of information I had never heard before.
The Vanity Fair article taken with the judge's comments is fairly damning. I believe Dylan and it just feels wrong on so many levels that Woody Allen is so lauded by Hollywood. I hope she finds some sort of justice.
Interesting thread and it has made me aware of a lot of information I had never heard before.
The Vanity Fair article taken with the judge's comments is fairly damning. I believe Dylan and it just feels wrong on so many levels that Woody Allen is so lauded by Hollywood. I hope she finds some sort of justice.
Of Vanity Fair's 10 facts, which would you say were the three most damning?
I think the whole thing was an eye opener to be honest.
You can't pick out three that you think are the most damning?
I discussed a couple of them earlier:
4. Allen subsequently lost four exhaustive court battles—a lawsuit, a disciplinary charge against the prosecutor, and two appeals—and was made to pay more than $1 million in Mia’s legal fees. Judge Elliott Wilk, the presiding judge in Allen’s custody suit against Farrow, concluded that there is “no credible evidence to support Mr. Allen’s contention that Ms. Farrow coached Dylan or that Ms. Farrow acted upon a desire for revenge against him for seducing Soon-Yi.”
How does an inability to prove Farrow guilty of something somehow prove Allens guilt?
As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
7. The Yale-New Haven Hospital Child Sex Abuse Clinic’s finding that Dylan had not been sexually molested, cited repeatedly by Allen’s attorneys, was not accepted as reliable by Judge Wilk, or by the Connecticut state prosecutor who originally commissioned them. The state prosecutor, Frank Maco, engaged the Yale-New Haven team to determine whether Dylan would be able to perceive facts correctly and be able to repeat her story on the witness stand.
How does that report not being accepted show that sex abuse place take place?
As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
Basically the inability to prove one thing, is not actually evidence of another thing.
Regarding e moral boundaries thing - I think people here are judging the situation with Allen, Farrow and Soon-Yi based on their own experience and expectation of a typical family unit, ie all living together in the same home, doing lots of family stuff together etc.
But their situation was nothing like that - Allen and Farrow pretty much lived separate lives - it was a pretty unconventional relationship that I for one find difficult to relate to. But I certainly wouldn't judge it based on my own experience.
Was he two-timing mother and daughter? Yes.
Was he in a relationship, and later married, his childrens' sister? Yes.
No matter if Allen and Farrow had an unconventional relationship, you can't dismiss those two facts.
He tries to make it sound as if he got involved with the housekeeper or nanny. It's not even remotely like that, whether or not Farrow and Allen ever lived together or not.
You can't pick out three that you think are the most damning?
I discussed a couple of them earlier:
4. Allen subsequently lost four exhaustive court battles—a lawsuit, a disciplinary charge against the prosecutor, and two appeals—and was made to pay more than $1 million in Mia’s legal fees. Judge Elliott Wilk, the presiding judge in Allen’s custody suit against Farrow, concluded that there is “no credible evidence to support Mr. Allen’s contention that Ms. Farrow coached Dylan or that Ms. Farrow acted upon a desire for revenge against him for seducing Soon-Yi.”
How does an inability to prove Farrow guilty of something somehow prove Allens guilt?
As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
7. The Yale-New Haven Hospital Child Sex Abuse Clinic’s finding that Dylan had not been sexually molested, cited repeatedly by Allen’s attorneys, was not accepted as reliable by Judge Wilk, or by the Connecticut state prosecutor who originally commissioned them. The state prosecutor, Frank Maco, engaged the Yale-New Haven team to determine whether Dylan would be able to perceive facts correctly and be able to repeat her story on the witness stand.
How does that report not being accepted show that sex abuse place take place?
As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
Basically the inability to prove one thing, is not actually evidence of another thing.
I dont think I need to pick any out really, the whole thing is worrying. Even the points you have highlighted do nothing but to strengthen the case against him imo based on the remarks of the judge. That the judge found his evidence not reliable and would not accept it speaks volumes.
Was he two-timing mother and daughter? Yes.
Was he in a relationship, and later married, his childrens' sister? Yes.
No matter if Allen and Farrow had an unconventional relationship, you can't dismiss those two facts.
He tries to make it sound as if he got involved with the housekeeper or nanny. It's not even remotely like that, whether or not Farrow and Allen ever lived together or not.
Granted, it was all very unconventional. But I don't know that we can judge it based on our experience or expectation of a typical family unit.
And even if you do, I still don't follow the leap of logic that gets from any of that to sexually abusing a 7 year old.
I dont think I need to pick any out really, the whole thing is worrying. Even the points you have highlighted do nothing but to strengthen the case against him imo based on the remarks of the judge. That the judge found his evidence not reliable and would not accept it speaks volumes.
Well, i thought maybe of you could pick out any, then they could be debated.
But I guess you've made your mind up, and don't want to debate anything.
Actually, no - they don't strengthen anything.
Or can you explain to me how the fact that he could not prove that Farrow planted ideas in Dylan's mind strengthens the case against him?
Can you explain to me why a report finding that Dylan had not been sexually abused being dismissed somehow shows that sexual abuse did take place?
I think the only thing that's really clear from the numerous links on here and elsewhere is that both Farrow and Allen are dysfunctional control freaks.
the thing about woody allen is that he spent years in freudian analysis, and a pretty unreconstructed one at that. he will have spent endless hours discussing oedipus and electra, and he will have been no stranger to ideas he eventually acted out with soon yi.
the forbidden is very tempting, and for someone as neurotic as allen the idea of making the ultimate transgression probably was/ is really rather seductive. he never could sustain a relationship with an adult woman, and he's never needed to. he certainly doth protest far too much in his public facade about how she could have been a secretary or a waitress or whatever (all 'lesser/ junior' roles note, not his equivalent - a writer, director )
i don't know if he abused his step/adopted daughter dylan, but i do know that proof is rarely available in these sorts of cases, and it does victims an injustice to assume therefore its all lies/fantasy.
and i do know that allen is living the ultimate transgressive fantasy with another step/adopted daughter. i don't think there's really much more to say, except i wonder if one day he will ever have the guts and insight to acknowledge what he has done.
Her physical age is important because some people have the impression she was underage when her relationship with him began. But now it's her mental age? Do you not think her IQ score, if it really was low, might have been affected by English being her second language? Anyway her IQ was reportedly "slightly below average". That's hardly going to make a difference to her mental age. It may well have improved by the time she was 20. Her IQ would have to be less than 80 to put her mental age at the time below 16. 80 is well below average.
I agree it was a PR disaster for him, but he probably knew it would be. If you are in love you don't really care about things like that. Wouldn't it be worse if he broke up the relationship for the sake of his PR image?
If you mean me, I wasn't defending Woody Allen as such, just putting the view that the evidence some find in this thread to be so damning is nothing of the kind. Some people were taking the "10 Undeniable Facts About the Woody Allen Sexual-Abuse Allegation" as literally that when they are nothing of the kind. I thought that needed discussion.
I find your suggestion that it would be OK for a "hot" older man to have such an age-gap relationship, but not a twerpy and whiny man, incredibly shallow. Assuming he really is like the character he usually plays on screen in real life of course. He might be worse for all I know. He clearly has difficulties with relationships but if he's had a mutually successful one with Soon Yi, don't knock it.
As for any uncomfortable pictures, they may really be awkward, or they might just look awkward. It's very easy to read all kinds of things into them given the accusations.
First off, the pics are truly awkward. Have you seen them? If so I think you'll agree with me.
Secondly, I'm not giving Jack Nicholson a free pass to hotness. In fact, it's a personal thing. In film studies, we all loved him. He was older than us and so cool. I never thought the same of WA. When news broke that he was bonking his step daughter ( or whatever is her acceptable designation) us students of his work expressed surprise but 'I always knew he was a perv'. All personal, all opinions.
Thirdly. Soon-YI had no language initially. Language barriers only extend so far. I believe she had been in the US for ten to twelve years. That infers she had been in education for at least a decade. IQ scores obviously take into account these factors. The fact remains she is below average.
More than anything, I would love for Soon-Yi to speak out. But I believe she never will as she does not have the skills to do so.
Well, i thought maybe of you could pick out any, then they could be debated.
But I guess you've made your mind up, and don't want to debate anything.
Actually, no - they don't strengthen anything.
Or can you explain to me how the fact that he could not prove that Farrow planted ideas in Dylan's mind strengthens the case against him?
Can you explain to me why a report finding that Dylan had not been sexually abused being dismissed somehow shows that sexual abuse did take place?
Yes, I have made my mind up to be honest. I always thought his relationship with Soon-Yi was disturbing to say the least and the links up thread have reinforced my view of him.
The judge said he wasnt credible and his evidence wasn't accepted I.e he didn't believe him. This clearly strengthens the view that there is some truth to what Dylan is saying, I'm not sure why this isn't clear to you.
First off, the pics are truly awkward. Have you seen them? If so I think you'll agree with me.
Secondly, I'm not giving Jack Nicholson a free pass to hotness. In fact, it's a personal thing. In film studies, we all loved him. He was older than us and so cool. I never thought the same of WA. When news broke that he was bonking his step daughter ( or whatever is her acceptable designation) us students of his work expressed surprise but 'I always knew he was a perv'. All personal, all opinions.
Thirdly. Soon-YI had no language initially. Language barriers only extend so far. I believe she had been in the US for ten to twelve years. That infers she had been in education for at least a decade. IQ scores obviously take into account these factors. The fact remains she is below average.
More than anything, I would love for Soon-Yi to speak out. But I believe she never will as she does not have the skills to do so.
I can give deliver my opinion more but I won't.
Soon Yi has made some statements, rather pissed of at how she's being characterised as low IQ. it's only Mia's side who are saying its low. She has a Master in Special Education from Columbia. Ok so W Bush proves you don't have to be that smart to get a top education but it still takes more than she is being given credit for.
First off, the pics are truly awkward. Have you seen them? If so I think you'll agree with me.
Secondly, I'm not giving Jack Nicholson a free pass to hotness. In fact, it's a personal thing. In film studies, we all loved him. He was older than us and so cool. I never thought the same of WA. When news broke that he was bonking his step daughter ( or whatever is her acceptable designation) us students of his work expressed surprise but 'I always knew he was a perv'. All personal, all opinions.
Yes you are. You all fancied Nicholson and you found Allen creepy. So you judge their relationships accordingly. All well and good to express that opinion but it has nothing to do with Dylan's accusations.
Thirdly. Soon-YI had no language initially. Language barriers only extend so far. I believe she had been in the US for ten to twelve years. That infers she had been in education for at least a decade. IQ scores obviously take into account these factors. The fact remains she is below average.
More than anything, I would love for Soon-Yi to speak out. But I believe she never will as she does not have the skills to do so.
I can give deliver my opinion more but I won't.
The IQ test in question was taken in third grade so probably about the time she was adopted. So her language skills then are a factor. By the time she had been in the US ten years she was starting her relationship with Allen. The idea she doesn't have the skills to speak out for herself is laughable. She isn't mentally retarded.
Soon Yi has made some statements, rather pissed of at how she's being characterised as low IQ. it's only Mia's side who are saying its low. She has a Master in Special Education from Columbia. Ok so W Bush proves you don't have to be that smart to get a top education but it still takes more than she is being given credit for.
Actually, I regard Mia's putting it about that Soon Yi was some sort of mental defective (based on the misleading fact that less than 12 months after she first came to the States as a child and barely spoke English, she scored slightly below average on an English language IQ test!) as one of the most chillingly wicked aspects of the whole affair, and a perfect example of how she uses half truths to smear and mislead. And amazingly ill informed people seem to accept it as gospel, despite the fact Soon Yi has two degrees - one of them from one of the best American universities. And anyone watching Wild Man Blues - made quite early on in the Allen/Previn relationship - would be able to witness for themselves that Soon Yi is highly articulate, rather bossy and clearly the dominant figure in their domestic life. Whatever else is off kilter in that relationship, Soon Yi was no put upon idiot!
Yes, I have made my mind up to be honest. I always thought his relationship with Soon-Yi was disturbing to say the least and the links up thread have reinforced my view of him.
The judge said he wasnt credible and his evidence wasn't accepted I.e he didn't believe him. This clearly strengthens the view that there is some truth to what Dylan is saying, I'm not sure why this isn't clear to you.
Throughout this thread there are people utterly convinced of Allen's guilt (fair enough) but who also expect more sceptical people to be equally as convinced. That's rather unreasonable.
Judge Wilk saying he thought Allen was less credible than Farrow does not clearly mean Dylan's accusation has some truth. It wasn't just Allen he didn't believe. He also dismissed a clinical report that said Dylan hadn't been abused. But this was a custody case, so criminal standards of proof were not required. It all hinged on who the Judge felt was the better parent.
Based on what we know, for and against, I'm not convinced Allen abused Dylan. There is too much doubt. That is not the same as being convinced Farrow fabricated it all either.
The only thing that is obvious from Woody's letter is that he is a terrible and very selfish father. What kind of man puts a romantic relationship before the relationship with his own children?
Why dosen't he try to help Dylan rather than slag her off? Surely that's what any decent father would do?
I think Woody Allen is deluded and surrounded by sycophants. What really disgusted me after having the affair with Mia's daughter, taking nude photos of her, he tried to get custody of Ronan, Dylan and Moses, declaring Mia was "UNFIT" as a mother. Did you read the vanity Affair article about the whole episode. Soon Yi should remember Mia chose her as a daughter and gave her a good life. Allen is a creep and I do not trust him.
First off, the pics are truly awkward. Have you seen them? If so I think you'll agree with me.
Secondly, I'm not giving Jack Nicholson a free pass to hotness. In fact, it's a personal thing. In film studies, we all loved him. He was older than us and so cool. I never thought the same of WA. When news broke that he was bonking his step daughter ( or whatever is her acceptable designation) us students of his work expressed surprise but 'I always knew he was a perv'. All personal, all opinions.
Thirdly. Soon-YI had no language initially. Language barriers only extend so far. I believe she had been in the US for ten to twelve years. That infers she had been in education for at least a decade. IQ scores obviously take into account these factors. The fact remains she is below average.
More than anything, I would love for Soon-Yi to speak out. But I believe she never will as she does not have the skills to do so.
I can give deliver my opinion more but I won't.
the fact remains that soon yi had a low iq score when she was 7 which may have been down to a language barrier, she graduated from drew university in 95, gained a masters degree from columbia university in 1998 and taught in an exclusive private school, the low iq stuff was made up by mia farrow and her academic achievments prove that its absolute nonsense
the fact remains that soon yi had a low iq score when she was 7 which may have been down to a language barrier, she graduated from drew university in 95, gained a masters degree from columbia university in 1998 and taught in an exclusive private school, the low iq stuff was made up by mia farrow and her academic achievments prove that its absolute nonsense
It certainly creates a don't trust either of them impression.
Personally if I thought my daughter hand run off with with someone was guilty of these crimes I wouldn't have made them " dead to me" and making them a Scarlett woman. I'd be worried for them and my grandchildren, always keeping the door open so if they needed to run they had somewhere to go.
There are too many agendas here to get to the truth and to be honest I don't think any of the players in it actually remember what really happened that day.
Yes, I have made my mind up to be honest. I always thought his relationship with Soon-Yi was disturbing to say the least and the links up thread have reinforced my view of him.
The judge said he wasnt credible and his evidence wasn't accepted I.e he didn't believe him. This clearly strengthens the view that there is some truth to what Dylan is saying, I'm not sure why this isn't clear to you.
Because it wasn't a case of not believing him. It was a case of there being insufficient evidence.
Those are two completely different things.
It is not up to a judge to believe or not, it is up to a judge to assess whether or not there is sufficient evidence.
First off, the pics are truly awkward. Have you seen them? If so I think you'll agree with me.
Secondly, I'm not giving Jack Nicholson a free pass to hotness. In fact, it's a personal thing. In film studies, we all loved him. He was older than us and so cool. I never thought the same of WA. When news broke that he was bonking his step daughter ( or whatever is her acceptable designation) us students of his work expressed surprise but 'I always knew he was a perv'. All personal, all opinions.
Thirdly. Soon-YI had no language initially. Language barriers only extend so far. I believe she had been in the US for ten to twelve years. That infers she had been in education for at least a decade. IQ scores obviously take into account these factors. The fact remains she is below average.
More than anything, I would love for Soon-Yi to speak out. But I believe she never will as she does not have the skills to do so.
I can give deliver my opinion more but I won't.
Given that you don't know Nicholson or Allen, what are you basing your respective opinions on how much of a perf they are? I imagine with a lot of people its largely down to Allen's appearance, and little else.
And I'm not sure where you're going with this IQ thing - presumably 50% of people are below average.
Are you confusing "below average IQ" with "mentally retarded"?
Comments
The Vanity Fair article taken with the judge's comments is fairly damning. I believe Dylan and it just feels wrong on so many levels that Woody Allen is so lauded by Hollywood. I hope she finds some sort of justice.
Of Vanity Fair's 10 facts, which would you say were the three most damning?
I think the whole thing was an eye opener to be honest.
You can't pick out three that you think are the most damning?
I discussed a couple of them earlier:
4. Allen subsequently lost four exhaustive court battles—a lawsuit, a disciplinary charge against the prosecutor, and two appeals—and was made to pay more than $1 million in Mia’s legal fees. Judge Elliott Wilk, the presiding judge in Allen’s custody suit against Farrow, concluded that there is “no credible evidence to support Mr. Allen’s contention that Ms. Farrow coached Dylan or that Ms. Farrow acted upon a desire for revenge against him for seducing Soon-Yi.”
How does an inability to prove Farrow guilty of something somehow prove Allens guilt?
As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
7. The Yale-New Haven Hospital Child Sex Abuse Clinic’s finding that Dylan had not been sexually molested, cited repeatedly by Allen’s attorneys, was not accepted as reliable by Judge Wilk, or by the Connecticut state prosecutor who originally commissioned them. The state prosecutor, Frank Maco, engaged the Yale-New Haven team to determine whether Dylan would be able to perceive facts correctly and be able to repeat her story on the witness stand.
How does that report not being accepted show that sex abuse place take place?
As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
Basically the inability to prove one thing, is not actually evidence of another thing.
Was he two-timing mother and daughter? Yes.
Was he in a relationship, and later married, his childrens' sister? Yes.
No matter if Allen and Farrow had an unconventional relationship, you can't dismiss those two facts.
He tries to make it sound as if he got involved with the housekeeper or nanny. It's not even remotely like that, whether or not Farrow and Allen ever lived together or not.
Double post
I dont think I need to pick any out really, the whole thing is worrying. Even the points you have highlighted do nothing but to strengthen the case against him imo based on the remarks of the judge. That the judge found his evidence not reliable and would not accept it speaks volumes.
Granted, it was all very unconventional. But I don't know that we can judge it based on our experience or expectation of a typical family unit.
And even if you do, I still don't follow the leap of logic that gets from any of that to sexually abusing a 7 year old.
Well, i thought maybe of you could pick out any, then they could be debated.
But I guess you've made your mind up, and don't want to debate anything.
Actually, no - they don't strengthen anything.
Or can you explain to me how the fact that he could not prove that Farrow planted ideas in Dylan's mind strengthens the case against him?
Can you explain to me why a report finding that Dylan had not been sexually abused being dismissed somehow shows that sexual abuse did take place?
This.
the forbidden is very tempting, and for someone as neurotic as allen the idea of making the ultimate transgression probably was/ is really rather seductive. he never could sustain a relationship with an adult woman, and he's never needed to. he certainly doth protest far too much in his public facade about how she could have been a secretary or a waitress or whatever (all 'lesser/ junior' roles note, not his equivalent - a writer, director )
i don't know if he abused his step/adopted daughter dylan, but i do know that proof is rarely available in these sorts of cases, and it does victims an injustice to assume therefore its all lies/fantasy.
and i do know that allen is living the ultimate transgressive fantasy with another step/adopted daughter. i don't think there's really much more to say, except i wonder if one day he will ever have the guts and insight to acknowledge what he has done.
First off, the pics are truly awkward. Have you seen them? If so I think you'll agree with me.
Secondly, I'm not giving Jack Nicholson a free pass to hotness. In fact, it's a personal thing. In film studies, we all loved him. He was older than us and so cool. I never thought the same of WA. When news broke that he was bonking his step daughter ( or whatever is her acceptable designation) us students of his work expressed surprise but 'I always knew he was a perv'. All personal, all opinions.
Thirdly. Soon-YI had no language initially. Language barriers only extend so far. I believe she had been in the US for ten to twelve years. That infers she had been in education for at least a decade. IQ scores obviously take into account these factors. The fact remains she is below average.
More than anything, I would love for Soon-Yi to speak out. But I believe she never will as she does not have the skills to do so.
I can give deliver my opinion more but I won't.
Yes, I have made my mind up to be honest. I always thought his relationship with Soon-Yi was disturbing to say the least and the links up thread have reinforced my view of him.
The judge said he wasnt credible and his evidence wasn't accepted I.e he didn't believe him. This clearly strengthens the view that there is some truth to what Dylan is saying, I'm not sure why this isn't clear to you.
Soon Yi has made some statements, rather pissed of at how she's being characterised as low IQ. it's only Mia's side who are saying its low. She has a Master in Special Education from Columbia. Ok so W Bush proves you don't have to be that smart to get a top education but it still takes more than she is being given credit for.
The IQ test in question was taken in third grade so probably about the time she was adopted. So her language skills then are a factor. By the time she had been in the US ten years she was starting her relationship with Allen. The idea she doesn't have the skills to speak out for herself is laughable. She isn't mentally retarded.
Actually, I regard Mia's putting it about that Soon Yi was some sort of mental defective (based on the misleading fact that less than 12 months after she first came to the States as a child and barely spoke English, she scored slightly below average on an English language IQ test!) as one of the most chillingly wicked aspects of the whole affair, and a perfect example of how she uses half truths to smear and mislead. And amazingly ill informed people seem to accept it as gospel, despite the fact Soon Yi has two degrees - one of them from one of the best American universities. And anyone watching Wild Man Blues - made quite early on in the Allen/Previn relationship - would be able to witness for themselves that Soon Yi is highly articulate, rather bossy and clearly the dominant figure in their domestic life. Whatever else is off kilter in that relationship, Soon Yi was no put upon idiot!
Judge Wilk saying he thought Allen was less credible than Farrow does not clearly mean Dylan's accusation has some truth. It wasn't just Allen he didn't believe. He also dismissed a clinical report that said Dylan hadn't been abused. But this was a custody case, so criminal standards of proof were not required. It all hinged on who the Judge felt was the better parent.
Based on what we know, for and against, I'm not convinced Allen abused Dylan. There is too much doubt. That is not the same as being convinced Farrow fabricated it all either.
rxangelina seems particularly rational and measured in her comments.
Drawing conclusions based on where people stand?
Good grief.
the fact remains that soon yi had a low iq score when she was 7 which may have been down to a language barrier, she graduated from drew university in 95, gained a masters degree from columbia university in 1998 and taught in an exclusive private school, the low iq stuff was made up by mia farrow and her academic achievments prove that its absolute nonsense
It certainly creates a don't trust either of them impression.
Personally if I thought my daughter hand run off with with someone was guilty of these crimes I wouldn't have made them " dead to me" and making them a Scarlett woman. I'd be worried for them and my grandchildren, always keeping the door open so if they needed to run they had somewhere to go.
There are too many agendas here to get to the truth and to be honest I don't think any of the players in it actually remember what really happened that day.
Because it wasn't a case of not believing him. It was a case of there being insufficient evidence.
Those are two completely different things.
It is not up to a judge to believe or not, it is up to a judge to assess whether or not there is sufficient evidence.
Given that you don't know Nicholson or Allen, what are you basing your respective opinions on how much of a perf they are? I imagine with a lot of people its largely down to Allen's appearance, and little else.
And I'm not sure where you're going with this IQ thing - presumably 50% of people are below average.
Are you confusing "below average IQ" with "mentally retarded"?