Wilful and neglicant behaviour likely to cause loss the the company , its employees and customers specifically relating to leaving an untrained member of staff unattended in the cash office.
I got dismissed today , I cant believe it , My actions were made under alot of pressure and stress , My mitigation was that as i got a promotion , was was moving to a new store to progress , on my last day , the manager decided to leave me alone to run the shop as he had his day off , that was breaking procedure as he was meant to be there to do a handover , including a full cash check and handing the store keys back ,but he decided to take day off , i did make an error a huge one which resulted in a major loss , but the whole situation could of been avoided in the first place if the manager had not broken policy in the first instance , i did also mention that i have been working under stress for the past 5 weeks but that fell on deaf ears ,the other guy involved kept his job , because the manager never filled out his training record card , so i looks like the guy had no training whatsoever!! The guy who done the disciplinary ( the one who promoted me ) told me to appeal ( off the record conversation ) cos he could tell i was genuine and had alot of prospects , but he was following HR`s advice and the consistency of the company , so i dont know what the point is in appealling , thanks for all your comments , it helped me.
Thanks Again - I`m now expecting a knock on the door from the police as i`m a suspect in the missing two grand
You should appeal and contact ACAS for advice. Have they found out what happened to the £2K
I will appeal , but i need support , i dont know what an appeal is all about , is it to discuss what was already discussed in the disciplinary? but with the Area Manager? I dunno , i cant think straight right now
I'm so sorry.
All I can say is repeat what I said before.
Get a solicitor
Ring ACAS
And try to remember if anyone else has ever left the room in the past and not been disciplined. If you can demonstrate common working practice they should not be able to dismiss for a procedural breach. Would any colleagues be willing to give statements to confirm it was common for others to leave the room? Then it could be unfair dismissal.
Do the company policies state anywhere that failure to comply with the rules could result in dismissal? If they don't state this you could argue that you couldn't reasonably know that your actions constituted gross misconduct. Had you known this, then you would not have left the room under any circumstances.
Take all documents to a solicitor. Sometimes (even if they are right to dismiss) if they do not follow the correct disciplinary process as set out by ACAS then it's unlawful dismissal.
I got dismissed today , I cant believe it , My actions were made under alot of pressure and stress , My mitigation was that as i got a promotion , was was moving to a new store to progress , on my last day , the manager decided to leave me alone to run the shop as he had his day off , that was breaking procedure as he was meant to be there to do a handover , including a full cash check and handing the store keys back ,but he decided to take day off , i did make an error a huge one which resulted in a major loss , but the whole situation could of been avoided in the first place if the manager had not broken policy in the first instance , i did also mention that i have been working under stress for the past 5 weeks but that fell on deaf ears ,the other guy involved kept his job , because the manager never filled out his training record card , so i looks like the guy had no training whatsoever!! The guy who done the disciplinary ( the one who promoted me ) told me to appeal ( off the record conversation ) cos he could tell i was genuine and had alot of prospects , but he was following HR`s advice and the consistency of the company , so i dont know what the point is in appealling , thanks for all your comments , it helped me.
Thanks Again - I`m now expecting a knock on the door from the police as i`m a suspect in the missing two grand
You totally ignored my advice and did exactly what I told you would get you sacked.
Wilful and neglicant behaviour likely to cause loss the the company , its employees and customers specifically relating to leaving an untrained member of staff unattended in the cash office.
To be honest..... I can't see that you would stand any chance of winning an appeal, as you have admitted to what you have been accused of. Yes, there were some other circumstances contributing to your actions, however, you did leave that person alone, and 2k have gone missing, knowing that it is against company rules. That your manager took the day off, is another matter.
Working under stress is not a good excuse, as that reflects your capability to work in a fast paced environment.
You may well be genuine, but the fact is that you left your colleague alone, which you have been disciplined for.
The reason for leaving him alone, doesn't stand up well either. If I had got money out to count, then got called away, the money would have been taken off the person counting it, and locked up again. I would have dealt with the problem, and then started again. Or asked another member of staff to stay in the office with the money and the other person. There are/was other options available to you, then just leave him.
It is not the end of the world. You made a mistake, you will never repeat that mistake.
I dont think it has ever happened before , me and my previous manager had done this , but we are management and never had an issue , and i think it only happen once , but i cant prove it and dont want to get him in to trouble as he was the one who got me a supervisor posistion , i shall call ACAS see what they can advise me , I dont think i can afford a solicitor to help me
I got dismissed today , I cant believe it , My actions were made under alot of pressure and stress , My mitigation was that as i got a promotion , was was moving to a new store to progress , on my last day , the manager decided to leave me alone to run the shop as he had his day off , that was breaking procedure as he was meant to be there to do a handover , including a full cash check and handing the store keys back ,but he decided to take day off , i did make an error a huge one which resulted in a major loss , but the whole situation could of been avoided in the first place if the manager had not broken policy in the first instance , i did also mention that i have been working under stress for the past 5 weeks but that fell on deaf ears ,the other guy involved kept his job , because the manager never filled out his training record card , so i looks like the guy had no training whatsoever!! The guy who done the disciplinary ( the one who promoted me ) told me to appeal ( off the record conversation ) cos he could tell i was genuine and had alot of prospects , but he was following HR`s advice and the consistency of the company , so i dont know what the point is in appealling , thanks for all your comments , it helped me.
Thanks Again - I`m now expecting a knock on the door from the police as i`m a suspect in the missing two grand
The company does not have a union, I will seek further advice , if it will help me , i just dont think my appeal will do any good , as i have already admitted to my mistake and my mitigation was no good , i just cant get the fact out of my head that if my manager done HIS job correctly and protected me , i would still have the job i love
The company does not have a union, I will seek further advice , if it will help me , i just dont think my appeal will do any good , as i have already admitted to my mistake and my mitigation was no good , i just cant get the fact out of my head that if my manager done HIS job correctly and protected me , i would still have the job i love
Did you, as advised, contact ACAS prior to the hearing?
Have the police been involved and where is the £2k.
You were given some good advice on here but seems you didn't take any of it
As the other employee hasn't been sacked it seems you have taken the money or that is their interpretation.
The company does not have a union, I will seek further advice , if it will help me , i just dont think my appeal will do any good , as i have already admitted to my mistake and my mitigation was no good , i just cant get the fact out of my head that if my manager done HIS job correctly and protected me , i would still have the job i love
And that may be your grounds for appeal - but talk to ACAS, CAB or a solicitor.
You have been treated differently to another employee. He broke protocol by leaving you with no other qualified staff yet has not been sacked. You broke protocol and were sacked.
The above agencies will advice given the details on whether or not the breaches of protocol are similar enough that your sacking is unfair.
I work in a hospital - we had four people disciplined for looking at porn on our network. Three were doctors and were given verbal warnings, one was a porter and was sacked. He appealed and because his punishment for the same breach of our internet policy was so different to the others, he won a fairly substantial payout. (And we installed better software to make sure no one looks at porn at work!!!)
I'm not really going to be any help here tbh but have read a lot of this thread (pages 1 and 3 - not 2) and felt like I wanted to say something.
This kind of thing annoys me - and I can only express my sympathy for the OP.
Where is common sense in all this? - answer nowhere - and that is so typical of how a lot of things are run these days. Person with a good record for 4 years makes a daft mistake and is dismissed - what a nonsense. Nobody says that what was done was sensible (even the OP) and with the benefit of hindsight it was very foolish. But most people are not thieves and can be left for 15 seconds without robbing two grand and that is probably how the OP was thinking deep down on the spur of the moment - isn't it obvious to anyone that the real villain here is the thief and yet they have got off and the OP who comes across as a hard working conscientious worker has lost her job.
Honestly all of us in jobs do foolish things from time to time - and the way the world is today we should be very afraid cos people seem to want to castigate someone for it rather than say 'You made a mistake but we won't overlook the many years (4 in the case of the OP) you've served the company well, learn from it and don't do it again'. A consequence of this maybe would be the OPs chances of promotion go for a while till she proves herself again - but to lose her job for it seems stupid to me.
Mind you appeals are often successful as panels can look at matters from a common sense pov so do not give up hope but this must be a bad day for you - and I am truly sorry. You should appeal and get all the help you can to make it sucessful - as getting another job in this day and age will be hard when you were dismissed from your previous one.
I cannot give definite advice here but perhaps you need to consider whether arguing they were 'as good as' posted will help your case (or not) and that therefore it was fair and reasonable to consider that you had followed procedure.
There is a reasonable chance to suspect the case will not centre on whether the second employee was untrustworthy but whether you followed correct procedure.
You may want to focus on saying that procedure was (under any reasonable definition) followed.
You may consider it useful to emphasise the 15 seconds that the case rests on. (I am not sure whether this well help or not - you need to consider if it helps or hinders).
You may wish to think about describing and (more importantly) demonstrating/proving the pressure and stress that you have been working under.
Is it worth stating the stress that you have been under with 'limited' management support? If you are under stress (not pressure) then surely there ought to be a management responsibility to care for you. Does a failure in your employer's 'duty of care' counter any 'breach' of procedure that you may or may not have committed?
You should state your action was not 'willful'. Describe your previous exemplary track record. Seek written letters of support from colleagues. You need to demonstrate this was not 'gross misconduct'. Perhaps you may want to admit to a mistake given the stress you were under, but not gross misconduct (again you have to make the decision or consult ACAS/Union/HR advisers).
Go to the ACAS website and check your rights, your right to be represented and the procedures that the employer must follow. If your employer fails to follow the correct procedure (such as informing you of your rights) then at appeal any negative decision can be over-turned. You may wish to keep this back as an appeal option rather than bring it up at the hearing. I believe you also have the right to delay the hearing but again decide whether this is going to help or hinder the outcome.
Consider writing down a statement which you read out at the hearing. Consider the questions you will put to the person (your manager?) presenting the case. These questions can be loaded to help your case, such as asking about the amount of support you get, the multiple tasks you have to undertake, the time you have to do these and whether it is reasonable of a manager to put all of this burden on you. Why did you manager take no responsibility for the posting? Is this reasonable?
I dont have the answers but I hope there are some ideas here for a robust defence. Be mindful that you should be calm, not be aggressive or attack, but be forthright and assertive. Remember the responsibility is with the employer to support you in your duties. If they have not done so, if they have caused you stress and failed their duty of care then there is no case. But also be willing to accept that you can make mistakes - though not willfully or negligent ones.
Best of luck OP. Please prepare well. You have persuaded me that you are honest and professional in one short post, so you now need to carry this through to the meeting.
This is great advice. Everything I would have said is here.
Im sorry about your job.
Does this company bank every single day or every other day ? The reason I ask is if they bank every other day, was the money taken the day before?
I don't understand how the other person got to keep their job.. They've only recently been employed so no doubt still in the probationary period even if they're not they have reduced employment rights as they have been there less then 12 months, if i had an new employee involved in £2000 going missing they would have been gone.. fast! for whatever reason came into my mind first, the training record shouldn't matter in the slightest, something just doesn't sound right to me.
Well aren't you just overflowing with empathy and compassion! :rolleyes:
Ever heard the expression "If you can't say something constructive, then don't say anything at all" ? Sheesh :yawn:
Back off, Woody gives good helpful advice all the time. In this instance he is correct.I cannot help but think tht the OP lost his job more with the ridiculous 15 sec story which he was adamant on sticking to. As soon as i read that in the opening post i knew he was lumbered because no one would believe that what he did took a mere 15 sec.Why lie about the time?
I don't understand how the other person got to keep their job.. They've only recently been employed so no doubt still in the probationary period even if they're not they have reduced employment rights as they have been there less then 12 months, if i had an new employee involved in £2000 going missing they would have been gone.. fast! for whatever reason came into my mind first, the training record shouldn't matter in the slightest, something just doesn't sound right to me.
No-one has yet proven that the trainee took the cash. When they do I'm sure he/she will be sacked in short order.
What is known is that the OP broke with policy/procedure and regardless of the subsequent loss and who took the money, the company can rightly sack her for this, and they have.
We can't know whether the outcome would have been different had the OP followed some of the advice given before the disciplinary but it would surely have increased her chances of a better outcome. Now her only hope is an appeal.
What kind of place is this with no CCTV in the cash room and with trainees wandering in and out at will? CCTV would protect the employees as much as it does the firm. CCTV evidence in this instance it wouldn't have stopped the OPs disciplinary but at least it would have lifted the cloud of suspicion from her regarding the loss. That suspicion may well have been a contributory factor to the decision to sack her rather than issue a warning. It's a shame.
OP, have you suggested coming up with an arrangement for repaying the £2000? they may reconsider their stance if they can see you are prepared to take a hit.
OP, have you suggested coming up with an arrangement for repaying the £2000? they may reconsider their stance if they can see you are prepared to take a hit.
Why should he, they need to pursue the thief, since OP works at a supermarket I think its fair to assume £2k will be a lot for them as well, its not like a couple hundred.
OP, have you suggested coming up with an arrangement for repaying the £2000? they may reconsider their stance if they can see you are prepared to take a hit.
Why the hell would h want to give a company £2000 when he never stole it?
I did take alot of advice from this forum , but i am Lithuanian and had trouble saying it in the disciplinary , i have never been in that enviroment before , it was not nice , I will not ask to repay the £2k as that also looks like i may have stole it in the first place , i have made a mistake , and i guess i should except my punishment , i am deeply saddend i have lost my job and i now have the worry about being charge with theft from the police , i dont want to blame people for my mistake , i just feel its unfair that i was exposed to a new ( Untrustworthy ) member of staff which the manager recruited , and the fact that the manager had his day off on my last day , to me that is wilful and negligant behaviour on his part ( a friend is typing my replies for me ) , I will keep you posted when i get my appeal date and any involvement from the police. Thank you people
Comments
You should appeal and contact ACAS for advice. Have they found out what happened to the £2K
I'm so sorry.
All I can say is repeat what I said before.
Get a solicitor
Ring ACAS
And try to remember if anyone else has ever left the room in the past and not been disciplined. If you can demonstrate common working practice they should not be able to dismiss for a procedural breach. Would any colleagues be willing to give statements to confirm it was common for others to leave the room? Then it could be unfair dismissal.
Do the company policies state anywhere that failure to comply with the rules could result in dismissal? If they don't state this you could argue that you couldn't reasonably know that your actions constituted gross misconduct. Had you known this, then you would not have left the room under any circumstances.
Take all documents to a solicitor. Sometimes (even if they are right to dismiss) if they do not follow the correct disciplinary process as set out by ACAS then it's unlawful dismissal.
ACAS Guide here
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2179
did they follow the rules set out in this guide?
You totally ignored my advice and did exactly what I told you would get you sacked.
To be honest..... I can't see that you would stand any chance of winning an appeal, as you have admitted to what you have been accused of. Yes, there were some other circumstances contributing to your actions, however, you did leave that person alone, and 2k have gone missing, knowing that it is against company rules. That your manager took the day off, is another matter.
Working under stress is not a good excuse, as that reflects your capability to work in a fast paced environment.
You may well be genuine, but the fact is that you left your colleague alone, which you have been disciplined for.
The reason for leaving him alone, doesn't stand up well either. If I had got money out to count, then got called away, the money would have been taken off the person counting it, and locked up again. I would have dealt with the problem, and then started again. Or asked another member of staff to stay in the office with the money and the other person. There are/was other options available to you, then just leave him.
It is not the end of the world. You made a mistake, you will never repeat that mistake.
Sorry to hear that, dogfood09. Can your trade union or local Citizens Advice Bureau http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm advise you further in this matter? The Community Legal Advice team here http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/gateway/ do provide free initial legal advice and that includes employment issues. Good Luck!
Did you, as advised, contact ACAS prior to the hearing?
Have the police been involved and where is the £2k.
You were given some good advice on here but seems you didn't take any of it
As the other employee hasn't been sacked it seems you have taken the money or that is their interpretation.
And that may be your grounds for appeal - but talk to ACAS, CAB or a solicitor.
You have been treated differently to another employee. He broke protocol by leaving you with no other qualified staff yet has not been sacked. You broke protocol and were sacked.
The above agencies will advice given the details on whether or not the breaches of protocol are similar enough that your sacking is unfair.
I work in a hospital - we had four people disciplined for looking at porn on our network. Three were doctors and were given verbal warnings, one was a porter and was sacked. He appealed and because his punishment for the same breach of our internet policy was so different to the others, he won a fairly substantial payout. (And we installed better software to make sure no one looks at porn at work!!!)
This kind of thing annoys me - and I can only express my sympathy for the OP.
Where is common sense in all this? - answer nowhere - and that is so typical of how a lot of things are run these days. Person with a good record for 4 years makes a daft mistake and is dismissed - what a nonsense. Nobody says that what was done was sensible (even the OP) and with the benefit of hindsight it was very foolish. But most people are not thieves and can be left for 15 seconds without robbing two grand and that is probably how the OP was thinking deep down on the spur of the moment - isn't it obvious to anyone that the real villain here is the thief and yet they have got off and the OP who comes across as a hard working conscientious worker has lost her job.
Honestly all of us in jobs do foolish things from time to time - and the way the world is today we should be very afraid cos people seem to want to castigate someone for it rather than say 'You made a mistake but we won't overlook the many years (4 in the case of the OP) you've served the company well, learn from it and don't do it again'. A consequence of this maybe would be the OPs chances of promotion go for a while till she proves herself again - but to lose her job for it seems stupid to me.
Mind you appeals are often successful as panels can look at matters from a common sense pov so do not give up hope but this must be a bad day for you - and I am truly sorry. You should appeal and get all the help you can to make it sucessful - as getting another job in this day and age will be hard when you were dismissed from your previous one.
This is great advice. Everything I would have said is here.
Does this company bank every single day or every other day ? The reason I ask is if they bank every other day, was the money taken the day before?
Well aren't you just overflowing with empathy and compassion! :rolleyes:
Ever heard the expression "If you can't say something constructive, then don't say anything at all" ? Sheesh :yawn:
Back off, Woody gives good helpful advice all the time. In this instance he is correct.I cannot help but think tht the OP lost his job more with the ridiculous 15 sec story which he was adamant on sticking to. As soon as i read that in the opening post i knew he was lumbered because no one would believe that what he did took a mere 15 sec.Why lie about the time?
What is known is that the OP broke with policy/procedure and regardless of the subsequent loss and who took the money, the company can rightly sack her for this, and they have.
We can't know whether the outcome would have been different had the OP followed some of the advice given before the disciplinary but it would surely have increased her chances of a better outcome. Now her only hope is an appeal.
What kind of place is this with no CCTV in the cash room and with trainees wandering in and out at will? CCTV would protect the employees as much as it does the firm. CCTV evidence in this instance it wouldn't have stopped the OPs disciplinary but at least it would have lifted the cloud of suspicion from her regarding the loss. That suspicion may well have been a contributory factor to the decision to sack her rather than issue a warning. It's a shame.
Sorry OP.
Will that help get her/his job back, of course it won't.
I have asked a couple of questions as have others as yet unanswered.
I posted something useful in a previous post.
And what advice would you like to give?
Why should he, they need to pursue the thief, since OP works at a supermarket I think its fair to assume £2k will be a lot for them as well, its not like a couple hundred.
Why the hell would h want to give a company £2000 when he never stole it?
PS they will deduct the 2K from your wages and remaining holiday pay.