I have just returned, and have not looked through everything. Do you have a link to this post?
I agree that suggesting that opera is the foundation for what Ms. Evancho is a bit too far. I would think, though, that recognising its influence on her success - which is strong - would be wise.
......
Absolutely agree.
This is the page with the "foundation" comment by HappyCamper, ~2/3 of the way down the page (if the link doesn't take you directly to that point):
She starts out by saying that Gianni Schicchi, from which O Mio Babbino Caro was taken, "...would have died out hundreds of years ago... without fans..." Actually, GS was written by Puccini in 1917-18, so it's less than a hundred years old. :rolleyes:
The "foundation" comment is ~2/3 of the way through the post. Other than these things, most of her points are good ones. But i STILL say the foundation of western classical music is baroque! :cool:
Yes, I think the premise that opera is entirely responsible for Jackie's success is a step too far. :-)
But as it was Phantom of the Opera which inspired Jackie, and ALW was himself inspired by Puccini when writing Phantom, you can see a link, in addition to Jackie singing in a classical style.
Haven't looked at Amazon this morning! Thanks PG for clarifying that HC was formerly MAW, that had confused me. :-)
spannerandpony,
I seem to recall that ALW was sued for Plagiarism, by Puccini's survivors, in connection with "Phantom Of The Opera". I believe that the case was settled out of Court.
I seem to recall that ALW was sued for Plagiarism, by Puccini's survivors, in connection with "Phantom Of The Opera". I believe that the case was settled out of Court.
Best Regards,
Russ
Really? That's fascinating - was it a particular song, or several songs?
Speaking of plagiarism, I was amazed at the similarity between (wait for it) "Mon coeur s'oeuvre a ta voix" from the opera Samson and Delilah, and Maggie's lullaby (written by John Williams) in the film "Hook" - now *there's* an unlikely connection!
Really? That's fascinating - was it a particular song, or several songs?
Speaking of plagiarism, I was amazed at the similarity between (wait for it) "Mon coeur s'oeuvre a ta voix" from the opera Samson and Delilah, and Maggie's lullaby (written by John Williams) in the film "Hook" - now *there's* an unlikely connection!
She starts out by saying that Gianni Schicchi, from which O Mio Babbino Caro was taken, "...would have died out hundreds of years ago... without fans..." Actually, GS was written by Puccini in 1917-18, so it's less than a hundred years old. :rolleyes:
The "foundation" comment is ~2/3 of the way through the post. Other than these things, most of her points are good ones. But i STILL say the foundation of western classical music is baroque! :cool:
AH. Thank you, PG.
Yes, I had seen the exchange about dates for Puccini as I was randomly skimming. That explains it. In all honesty, I found the poster's taunt about the date in poor taste, although correct. I understand, however. It appears that just about all individuals on that thread are "right fighters", happy to quickly point out any tiny error of others in a very "I know better than you" way. I suppose we are guilty of it here, too. I feel myself fall into that pattern far more on the internet than in everyday life. It is a difficult tendency for me sometimes.
I agree that most of the points in the original post are good ones.
The foundation reference is slightly different than I thought. She does not say "opera" is the foundation. As written, "The foundation on which she is standing" appears to suggest the opera arias already mentioned and the classical singing style, as discussed. I infer that she (?) believes opera composers and teachers laid a foundation for Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and singing style. I can accept this. Is it the full foundation for everything she is singing? I would say no. But is it the foundation for what has captured the imagination of her audience? Yes, I believe it is.
She starts out by saying that Gianni Schicchi, from which O Mio Babbino Caro was taken, "...would have died out hundreds of years ago... without fans..." Actually, GS was written by Puccini in 1917-18, so it's less than a hundred years old. :rolleyes:
The "foundation" comment is ~2/3 of the way through the post. Other than these things, most of her points are good ones. But i STILL say the foundation of western classical music is baroque! :cool:
MAwriter may have good points about opera but its not an opera discussion, its a Jackie discussion and whenever you read MAwriter's posts, you would think the topic was opera and not Jackie.
Im sure there is an opera forum somewhere, perfect for MAwriter but I am very confused as to why MAwriter is there or any of the other opera posters, since they arent there to discuss Jackie.
Yes, I had seen the exchange about dates for Puccini as I was randomly skimming. That explains it. In all honesty, I found the poster's taunt about the date in poor taste, although correct. I understand, however. It appears that just about all individuals on that thread are "right fighters", happy to quickly point out any tiny error of others in a very "I know better than you" way. I suppose we are guilty of it here, too. I feel myself fall into that pattern far more on the internet than in everyday life. It is a difficult tendency for me sometimes.
I agree that most of the points in the original post are good ones.
The foundation reference is slightly different than I thought. She does not say "opera" is the foundation. As written, "The foundation on which she is standing" appears to suggest the opera arias already mentioned and the classical singing style, as discussed. I infer that she (?) believes opera composers and teachers laid a foundation for Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and singing style. I can accept this. Is it the full foundation for everything she is singing? I would say no. But is it the foundation for what has captured the imagination of her audience? Yes, I believe it is.
A lot of us have a tendency to slip into "gotcha" mode, pointing out every little mistake by others. I honestly don't mind if someone points out my goofs - as long as it's done constructively, without name-calling etc. :cool:
MAwriter may have good points about opera but its not an opera discussion, its a Jackie discussion and whenever you read MAwriter's posts, you would think the topic was opera and not Jackie.
Im sure there is an opera forum somewhere, perfect for MAwriter but I am very confused as to why MAwriter is there or any of the other opera posters, since they arent there to discuss Jackie.
Deuce,
I agree that the flame wars between HappyCamper/MAw & others about opera can get old, & she seems to be in a fair number of them. Still, i believe she's a Jackie fan, & she contributes positively to the blog in her own way.
From personal communications, i know for a fact that 2 of the other opera lovers, Diora & djslopezisl, are big Jackie fans - djs especially is as much of a Jackie lover as anyone.
It appears to me that there are quite a number of individuals on the Amazon thread who despise opera. There are also a number of individuals who love it.
Those who despise opera want to suggest that nothing Ms. Evancho does has anything to do with opera. This is a preposterous stance. Those who love opera want to suggest that everything she does has something to do with opera. This is also silly.
Unfortunately, I have found those opposed to opera on the Amazon thread to be quite malicious at times and intentionally baiting. Having said that, I agree that MAW/HC is sometimes overly forceful as are several others, and would be better served to ignore comments like those made by deuce8pro. In fact, I believe the opera lovers would be better served to mention opera as little as possible. Virtually any mention of opera tends to ignite some sort of turmoil.
Now, the post in question here was regarding opera's influence on Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and classical singing style. This seems a perfectly acceptable topic for a Jackie Evancho thread.
However, it would have been better left unsaid, given the negative responses (which could and should have been predicted).
Further proof of this are many of the responses to the Huffington Post article by an opera singer, and these responses appeared to be lacking any basis in reality; in this case, simply a mention of Ms. Evancho in an article associated with an "opera" singer set off drama.
It is, therefore, best to limit the topic as much as possible.
It appears to me that there are quite a number of individuals on the Amazon thread who despise opera. There are also a number of individuals who love it.
Those who despise opera want to suggest that nothing Ms. Evancho does has anything to do with opera. This is a preposterous stance. Those who love opera want to suggest that everything she does has something to do with opera. This is also silly.
Unfortunately, I have found those opposed to opera on the Amazon thread to be quite malicious at times and intentionally baiting. Having said that, I agree that MAW/HC is sometimes overly forceful as are several others, and would be better served to ignore comments like those made by deuce8pro. In fact, I believe the opera lovers would be better served to mention opera as little as possible. Virtually any mention of opera tends to ignite some sort of turmoil.
Now, the post in question here was regarding opera's influence on Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and classical singing style. This seems a perfectly acceptable topic for a Jackie Evancho thread.
However, it would have been better left unsaid, given the negative responses (which could and should have been predicted).
Further proof of this are many of the responses to the Huffington Post article by an opera singer, and these responses appeared to be lacking any basis in reality; in this case, simply a mention of Ms. Evancho in an article associated with an "opera" singer set off drama.
It is, therefore, best to limit the topic as much as possible.
I am at a genuine loss to understand WHY the very mention of opera sends some Jackie fans into such a spin....anyone able to enlighten me?
I am at a genuine loss to understand WHY the very mention of opera sends some Jackie fans into such a spin....anyone able to enlighten me?
I join you in your confusion.
My theory is that these devoted (obsessed?) fans cannot abide any singer who may currently have more skill than Ms. Evancho. They wish for Ms. Evancho to be respected and acknowledged as the greatest singer in the world, which is how they see her. Many of these singers, while not as commercially successful in the recording business, are highly respected and, I imagine, very proud.
Ironically, I believe it may be jealousy. Could that be? I am not sure. But, it seems that anyone with a level of respect in the classical world is attacked. The field which harbors the most technically skilled singers in the world is also attacked.
They say Ms. Evancho does it better, but the vast majority do not agree; those who are highly regarded are criticized. I wonder.....
My theory is that these devoted (obsessed?) fans cannot abide any singer who may currently have more skill than Ms. Evancho. They wish for Ms. Evancho to be respected and acknowledged as the greatest singer in the world, which is how they see her. Many of these singers, while not as commercially successful in the recording business, are highly respected and, I imagine, very proud.
Ironically, I believe it may be jealousy. Could that be? I am not sure. But, it seems that anyone with a level of respect in the classical world is attacked. The field which harbors the most technically skilled singers in the world is also attacked.
They say Ms. Evancho does it better, but the vast majority do not agree; those who are highly regarded are criticized. I wonder.....
Hmmm, I think you're right. Is it a dislike of those classical/opera singers who have done the hard graft; the years of training, and who have gained respect in the classical world despite (probably) being quite poorly recompensed? Almost like scorn for those whose art means more to them than commercial or financial success?
Or is it more specifically a dislike of those (either opera fans or classically trained singers) who seem to criticise Jackie?
It appears to me that there are quite a number of individuals on the Amazon thread who despise opera. There are also a number of individuals who love it.
Those who despise opera want to suggest that nothing Ms. Evancho does has anything to do with opera. This is a preposterous stance. Those who love opera want to suggest that everything she does has something to do with opera. This is also silly.
Unfortunately, I have found those opposed to opera on the Amazon thread to be quite malicious at times and intentionally baiting. Having said that, I agree that MAW/HC is sometimes overly forceful as are several others, and would be better served to ignore comments like those made by deuce8pro. In fact, I believe the opera lovers would be better served to mention opera as little as possible. Virtually any mention of opera tends to ignite some sort of turmoil.
Now, the post in question here was regarding opera's influence on Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and classical singing style. This seems a perfectly acceptable topic for a Jackie Evancho thread.
However, it would have been better left unsaid, given the negative responses (which could and should have been predicted).
Further proof of this are many of the responses to the Huffington Post article by an opera singer, and these responses appeared to be lacking any basis in reality; in this case, simply a mention of Ms. Evancho in an article associated with an "opera" singer set off drama.
It is, therefore, best to limit the topic as much as possible.
I haven't read much on Amazon this morning but there are a couple of excellent posts so far by "A reader from Frisco Beach" (is that PG?) and Happy Camper/MAW on the necessity of Jackie having a good, local vocal coach whom she sees regularly. Again, more for vocal safety than actual technical, classical training.
I am at a genuine loss to understand WHY the very mention of opera sends some Jackie fans into such a spin....anyone able to enlighten me?
spannerandpony,
From what I can see, since the war with Opera has been going on, from the very beginning, it's the fact that Jackie hasn't put in the time, or hasn't worked for it. When you stop and consider that more than 20% of Jackie's entire life has been dedicated to hard work and teaching herself how to sing while taking care not to harm her voice. That's 1/5 of her life and more
Another big thing that pops up is "Classically Trained!" For some reason a lot of people who are classically trained, think that by being so automatically makes them more Worthy than Jackie. After all they have that degree, and they put in the years, so it must mean they are good, right? I just looked at my Diplomas, and there is no where on it where it says "this Diploma grants you talent!"
My Mother was like that. She was a great "Technical" Pianist, who even had a Concert Debut in the 30s. To her way of thinking, you played the music exactly as it was written on the sheet music in front of you. No more, no less! She had absolutely no feeling for the music she was playing. She was like an Automaton. I know I saw old critiques of her performance, and they all said essentially the same thing, technically beautiful, but lacks expression!
Thank God I didn't inherit that from my mother!
When I play, I already have a picture in my mind of what I want my notes to express to those listening to me play. I just feel the connection with the instrument. It's like energy I can feel flowing through my fingers. I guess I got both mine and my mother's share of expression when it comes to being a Pianist/Organist. I guess you could say that I put everything into my performance (to my great advantage), that my mother lacked in hers!
If you want to see what I think is Obscene Talent, check out 16 year old Conrad Tao's Piano Solo on Imaginer from Jackie's PBS Special, if you have access to it, as there are no links! This kid's fingers on the keys are mesmerizing to watch Conrad absolutely makes love to the keys. He plays an incredible "Harp" with the Piano! Shame it wasn't a Steinway! If you don't have access to it, I'm pretty sure I could send you the 1080p of it with "sendthisfile." It's a 160MB file. If you would like it, let me know.
From what I can see, since the war with Opera has been going on, from the very beginning, it's the fact that Jackie hasn't put in the time, or hasn't worked for it. When you stop and consider that more than 20% of Jackie's entire life has been dedicated to hard work and teaching herself how to sing while taking care not to harm her voice. That's 1/5 of her life and more
Another big thing that pops up is "Classically Trained!" For some reason a lot of people who are classically trained, think that by being so automatically makes them more Worthy than Jackie. After all they have that degree, and they put in the years, so it must mean they are good, right? I just looked at my Diplomas, and there is no where on it where it says "this Diploma grants you talent!"
My Mother was like that. She was a great "Technical" Pianist, who even had a Concert Debut in the 30s. To her way of thinking, you played the music exactly as it was written on the sheet music in front of you. No more, no less! She had absolutely no feeling for the music she was playing. She was like an Automaton. I know I saw old critiques of her performance, and they all said essentially the same thing, technically beautiful, but lacks expression!
Thank God I didn't inherit that from my mother!
When I play, I already have a picture in my mind of what I want my notes to express to those listening to me play. I just feel the connection with the instrument. It's like energy I can feel flowing through my fingers. I guess I got both mine and my mother's share of expression when it comes to being a Pianist/Organist. I guess you could say that I put everything into my performance (to my great advantage), that my mother lacked in hers!
If you want to see what I think is Obscene Talent, check out 16 year old Conrad Tao's Piano Solo on Imaginer from Jackie's PBS Special, if you have access to it, as there are no links! This kid's fingers on the keys are mesmerizing to watch Conrad absolutely makes love to the keys. He plays an incredible "Harp" with the Piano! Shame it wasn't a Steinway! If you don't have access to it, I'm pretty sure I could send you the 1080p of it with "sendthisfile." It's a 160MB file. If you would like it, let me know.
Best Regards,
Russ
Thanks Russ; I'll have a look and see if I can find that.
Yes, you are of course right about talent and technicality. One could say of course that a great artist needs both; as one of my daughter's ballet teachers puts it:
"Putting the technical muscle memory in place allows the dancer to express emotions and dance artistically". What she means by that is that the girls are trained constantly so that their feet, ankles, legs, core muscles, arms, back, neck and shoulders do the steps without having to think consciously about the correct technical alignment. That frees the dancer up to feel the emotion in the music and to "dance" the story. That safe training is already in place.
A dancer who is purely technical but cannot "feel" the music can be very very good, but will never be a star.
But conversely, the dancer who has all the talent in the world, and feels every emotion, but won't put in the hours and hours of repetition (plies, rond de jambe, tendu after tendu), has just as much trouble becoming a star because they don't have the technical training for their muscles to fall back on. Often they get injured, sometimes they don't get the jobs in the first place because the technique simply isn't there.
Obviously in the singing world, things are slightly different; Jackie is already having amazing commercial success based upon her talent, her voice, and her personality. But without the technical grounding, and weekly or twice weekly lessons from a good qualified vocal coach, will she have the safe grounding, the hours upon hours of exercises, the eradication of bad habits etc. to KEEP her voice healthy and keep her career going in the long term?
Talent is a wonderful wonderful thing to be blessed with. But it needs something else to back it up and keep it safe and working. And that "something else" is classical training and hard, hard work.
I haven't read much on Amazon this morning but there are a couple of excellent posts so far by "A reader from Frisco Beach" (is that PG?) and Happy Camper/MAW on the necessity of Jackie having a good, local vocal coach whom she sees regularly. Again, more for vocal safety than actual technical, classical training.
Based on my own personal experiences, I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe Lisa to be the best choice until after puberty is complete! I say this because of the mother Daughter thing what with Jackie going through puberty, and the absolute trust Jackie would have for her Mother's opinion, when needed. It's a formula I wouldn't mess with.
Jackie is self taught. That by no means implies that the lessons were through trial and error. Again, I see myself at the same age, having most but not all of Jackie's vocal attributes! Self taught are funny words. When you are a Prodigy of that level, you teach yourself from the knowledge that's in your head already. It's just the right time! You just do it, partly through instinct and partly from what you are seeing in your own mind, explaining it all to you. I know it sounds weird, but that's what it's like. It's like what Jackie says, "something just comes over her!" Emily Bear says the same thing, "It just comes over me!" I know that when I started advanced training 6 months short of 17, and they tried to teach me some techniques to improve my falsetto voice (I never had a Falsetto voice!), I couldn't do it. My voice just wouldn't let me make a sound. It was like I couldn't breathe out for a second. I've got to believe that I couldn't do something to hurt my voice if I tried. When it was discovered by the University ENTs that my Voicebox was decidedly female, in spite of no funny hormones or weird Chromosomes. I trained as a female from then on, with great results, and left school as a Coloratura. Jackie was doing Coloratura at 9! I was probably 18 before I could do what she could do at 9. One of her vocal attributes that wasn't one of my gifts.
Lisa will have had a lot of sound advice from Yvie, and you know Lisa isn't going to do anything to break her Daughter's heart, so I feel she is better off with her Mother than with a stranger, unless she just happens to hit it off like she did with Yvie. Doubtful, but possible. I think Lisa should be her coach!
I am at a genuine loss to understand WHY the very mention of opera sends some Jackie fans into such a spin....anyone able to enlighten me?
Morning all.
It's still AM there as i start this....
There is an anti-opera feeling in the US that goes back a long way. As djslopezisl pointed out, the Gershwins did everything they could to convince people in the 30s that Porgy & Bess was NOT an "opera," no doubt partly because of this anti-opera prejudice.
Obviously there are many opera fans in the States who keep the NY Met & other large houses going, but others see it as too European, too upper crust, too traditional, too classical, too white, etc, etc. Lots of other genres, from R&B to jazz to rock to rap, have more African influence, so for some, opera brings up the sensitive topic of race in America because of the lack of this influence. Our friends across the pond are seeing, as we speak, how the topic of race can be difficult & sensitive. :eek:
It's true that some Jackie fans don't want to admit that adult opera singers generally have better voices than Jackie, but i think there are huge cultural feelings underlying the anti-opera stance as well.
Very good S&P, they call me "Frisco" on Amazon. Others there have also been very articulate about recommending coaches, e.g. Diora, who makes excellent points & writes well, even though English isn't her 1st language.
Based on my own personal experiences, I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe Lisa to be the best choice until after puberty is complete! I say this because of the mother Daughter thing what with Jackie going through puberty, and the absolute trust Jackie would have for her Mother's opinion, when needed. It's a formula I wouldn't mess with.
Jackie is self taught. That by no means implies that the lessons were through trial and error. Again, I see myself at the same age, having most but not all of Jackie's vocal attributes! Self taught are funny words. When you are a Prodigy of that level, you teach yourself from the knowledge that's in your head already. It's just the right time! You just do it, partly through instinct and partly from what you are seeing in your own mind, explaining it all to you. I know it sounds weird, but that's what it's like. It's like what Jackie says, "something just comes over her!" Emily Bear says the same thing, "It just comes over me!" I know that when I started advanced training 6 months short of 17, and they tried to teach me some techniques to improve my falsetto voice (I never had a Falsetto voice!), I couldn't do it. My voice just wouldn't let me make a sound. It was like I couldn't breathe out for a second. I've got to believe that I couldn't do something to hurt my voice if I tried. When it was discovered by the University ENTs that my Voicebox was decidedly female, in spite of no funny hormones or weird Chromosomes. I trained as a female from then on, with great results, and left school as a Coloratura. Jackie was doing Coloratura at 9! I was probably 18 before I could do what she could do at 9. One of her vocal attributes that wasn't one of my gifts.
Lisa will have had a lot of sound advice from Yvie, and you know Lisa isn't going to do anything to break her Daughter's heart, so I feel she is better off with her Mother than with a stranger, unless she just happens to hit it off like she did with Yvie. Doubtful, but possible. I think Lisa should be her coach!
Best Regards,
Russ
Morning Russ,
You make good points, but there are things Lisa may not know about the voice. We've discussed Jackie's palatal & throat issues here, & a good coach could help Jackie eliminate those.
I don't know if you follow Amazon, but HappyCamper posted about a conversation she had with a respected classical voice teacher who said Jackie had "big talent" but also had "throat" issues. No doubt Lisa is very smart & has already learned a lot about the voice, & of course is very compassionate toward her daughter, but there are ways a good, objective voice teacher could help Jackie. I ask again: what's the downside? Even if voice teachers disagreed with Lisa or each other, it could be useful to get more than one input.
Morning Russ,
You make good points, but there are things Lisa may not know about the voice. We've discussed Jackie's palatal & throat issues here, & a good coach could help Jackie eliminate those.
I don't know if you follow Amazon, but HappyCamper posted about a conversation she had with a respected classical voice teacher who said Jackie had "big talent" but also had "throat" issues. No doubt Lisa is very smart & has already learned a lot about the voice, & of course is very compassionate toward her daughter, but there are ways a good, objective voice teacher could help Jackie. I ask again: what's the downside? Even if voice teachers disagreed with Lisa or each other, it could be useful to get more than one input.
After all, reasonable minds can differ....
PG Antioch,
I did forget to mention that LIsa is a Nurse, so she would have some advance knowledge from Yvie in knowing what to look or look out for. Plus you saw how Lisa was when Rachael was sick. Lisa would have taken down the entire Green Bay front line if they were foolish enough to get in the way of Lisa getting to her baby! What with Puberty already started I just feel it's best for Lisa to continue as Jackie's teacher. A voice teacher isn't going to do anymore than maintain the Status Quo anyway! There's really nothing at this point a voice coach can teach her that she already doesn't know! Ultimately, Jackie's Biological clock is going to determine Jackie's schedule, not a voice coach, or Jackie's Mom! That probably won't be for a couple of years yet! Jackie is in good capable caring hands, and I think it should stay that way, and who knows Jackie inside and out better than her own Mother? I feel that's very important for Jackie. Just my opinion of course, but I think a very valid one!
All very good and thought provoking posts. Whilst I respect your knowledge Russ, and your judgement, I have to agree with PG here.
Of course Mrs Evancho has Jackie's best interests at heart, and her medical training as a Nurse is no doubt very useful indeed. Jackie obviously trusts her Mum and listens to her opinion (just watch *that* change in the teenage years! )
BUT. And there is a very big but. Unless Mrs. Evancho is a trained, qualified, respected singing teacher, there will be stuff going on - particularly as Jackie enters puberty - that Mrs Evancho will not be qualified to teach or comment on.
It would be akin to me teaching my daughter's ballet classes. She has a natural talent, I have enough knowledge of ballet to know what I should be seeing, in terms of turnout, alignment, port de bras, etc. I can correct little things during my daughter's practice sessions, but that does not make me a qualified ballet teacher.
She teaches herself steps at home, sometimes syllabus steps, sometimes steps that she's seen in a ballet. However, I am absolutely sure that when she gets back to class, there will be something about the step that the teacher will correct - some tiny adjustment - so that it is done safely and without getting into bad habits.
Singing is no different. Just as in dance, that growth spurt though puberty can throw everything off kilter; co-ordination in dance, and vocal changes in singers. I like to think of it as guiding a ship through rough seas into the calm waters of post-puberty - you wouldn't let the Ship's Doctor do the steering, no matter how many times he'd watched the Captain do it!
I did forget to mention that LIsa is a Nurse
......
Russ
Lisa isn't just "a nurse," she has a BS in nursing. There are several ways to become a registered nurse, & the BS route is the most academically rigorous & demanding (excluding graduate degrees like PhDs). There are also several levels "below" RN, including LVN/LPN (licensed vocational or practical nurse), nurses' assistant, etc. A BSN is much more prestigious than the other ways of becoming a nurse. :cool:
Lisa's no dummy. I'm sure she's learned a great deal about how to take care of, & develop, Jackie's voice. But like S&P said, she's not an experienced voice teacher.
There could be other explanations. Perhaps they HAVE looked into available voice teachers in Pittsburgh & have nixed them for one reason or another. Lisa may think Jackie is still too young for lessons. :cool:
Of course if she's too young for lessons, maybe she's too young to be a singing superstar like she's becoming. The train is leaving the station, & there's no stopping it now. She's a professional singer. Even if Lisa's doing a superb job, what's the downside of having a professional do some of the teaching? They're already kind of doing that with Yvie & Lorraine Nubar. A coach in Pittsburgh could be available any time for consultation if they're not sure about somethng. Again, what's the downside? I don't see one - but it's JMO.
Lisa isn't just "a nurse," she has a BS in nursing. There are several ways to become a registered nurse, & the BS route is the most academically rigorous & demanding (excluding graduate degrees like PhDs). There are also several levels "below" RN, including LVN/LPN (licensed vocational or practical nurse), nurses' assistant, etc. A BSN is much more prestigious than the other ways of becoming a nurse. :cool:
Lisa's no dummy. I'm sure she's learned a great deal about how to take care of, & develop, Jackie's voice. But like S&P said, she's not an experienced voice teacher.
There could be other explanations. Perhaps they HAVE looked into available voice teachers in Pittsburgh & have nixed them for one reason or another. Lisa may think Jackie is still too young for lessons. :cool:
Of course if she's too young for lessons, maybe she's too young to be a singing superstar like she's becoming. The train is leaving the station, & there's no stopping it now. She's a professional singer. Even if Lisa's doing a superb job, what's the downside of having a professional do some of the teaching? They're already kind of doing that with Yvie & Lorraine Nubar. A coach in Pittsburgh could be available any time for consultation if they're not sure about somethng. Again, what's the downside? I don't see one - but it's JMO.
Hi PG,
Is a BS in Nursing like a Nursing Degree here?
Not just your opinion, I happen to agree completely. Jackie certainly isn't too young to have a local teacher just to keep an eye on things, particularly through the difficult pre-teen and early teenage years where the body (and vocal chords) are changing so much.
I agree. Informative posts on Amazon about the vocal coach question.
PG, let me add my voice of support to your position. I also do not see a downside. But we do not see everything, so perhaps there is something we do not know. I have no doubt Mrs. Evancho has considered the various options.
Nevertheless, I was disappointed to see her jump in to a discussion about a teenage opera student's negative tweets about her daughter. To survive in the entertainment industry, one must possess a certain grace - at least in public venues. After listening to this student sing, Mrs Evancho posted. I understand her response to someone who had strongly criticized her daughter, but things like this are not wise.
L. Evancho says:
OMG Snoberg! That was HYSTERICAL!
I agree. Informative posts on Amazon about the vocal coach question.
PG, let me add my voice of support to your position. I also do not see a downside. But we do not see everything, so perhaps there is something we do not know. I have no doubt Mrs. Evancho has considered the various options.
Nevertheless, I was disappointed to see her jump in to a discussion about a teenage opera student's negative tweets about her daughter. To survive in the entertainment industry, one must possess a certain grace - at least in public venues. After listening to this student sing, Mrs Evancho posted. I understand her response to someone who had strongly criticized her daughter, but things like this are not wise.
L. Evancho says:
OMG Snoberg! That was HYSTERICAL!
Yes, I agree CalipsoNot. Mrs Evancho was also asked (several pages ago) on Amazon why she didn't continue with Jackie's previous vocal coach who I believe was local. Mrs Evancho had already said that the coach was "an assembly line teacher" with pupils waiting for their lesson, but when prompted further she replied that she didn't need to go into all the reasons "why she sucked".
Now obviously it's the Evancho's decision to change teachers or to decide not to continue lessons with that teacher, and quite right too. They obviously had their reasons, and those reasons are their business.
However, if the singing world is anything like the ballet world, it's SMALL. It's never wise to publicly slate a teacher - or another singer - in case you ever come across them at a later date, or someone who works with them. I think it would have been wiser to say something very unspecific and diplomatic.
Comments
Absolutely agree.
This is the page with the "foundation" comment by HappyCamper, ~2/3 of the way down the page (if the link doesn't take you directly to that point):
http://www.amazon.com/Jackie-Evancho-general-discussion-2/forum/Fx3521E4Z59FKRK/Tx1ZL9TFCL3ZT77/294/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg294?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B004UB2WAQ&cdSort=oldest
She starts out by saying that Gianni Schicchi, from which O Mio Babbino Caro was taken, "...would have died out hundreds of years ago... without fans..." Actually, GS was written by Puccini in 1917-18, so it's less than a hundred years old. :rolleyes:
The "foundation" comment is ~2/3 of the way through the post. Other than these things, most of her points are good ones. But i STILL say the foundation of western classical music is baroque! :cool:
spannerandpony,
I seem to recall that ALW was sued for Plagiarism, by Puccini's survivors, in connection with "Phantom Of The Opera". I believe that the case was settled out of Court.
Best Regards,
Russ
Really? That's fascinating - was it a particular song, or several songs?
Speaking of plagiarism, I was amazed at the similarity between (wait for it) "Mon coeur s'oeuvre a ta voix" from the opera Samson and Delilah, and Maggie's lullaby (written by John Williams) in the film "Hook" - now *there's* an unlikely connection!
spannerandpony,
Here's a link to the lawsuit.
http://www.enotes.com/topic/The_Phantom_of_the_Opera_%281986_musical%29#Plagiarism
Best Regards,
Russ
AH. Thank you, PG.
Yes, I had seen the exchange about dates for Puccini as I was randomly skimming. That explains it. In all honesty, I found the poster's taunt about the date in poor taste, although correct. I understand, however. It appears that just about all individuals on that thread are "right fighters", happy to quickly point out any tiny error of others in a very "I know better than you" way. I suppose we are guilty of it here, too. I feel myself fall into that pattern far more on the internet than in everyday life. It is a difficult tendency for me sometimes.
I agree that most of the points in the original post are good ones.
The foundation reference is slightly different than I thought. She does not say "opera" is the foundation. As written, "The foundation on which she is standing" appears to suggest the opera arias already mentioned and the classical singing style, as discussed. I infer that she (?) believes opera composers and teachers laid a foundation for Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and singing style. I can accept this. Is it the full foundation for everything she is singing? I would say no. But is it the foundation for what has captured the imagination of her audience? Yes, I believe it is.
MAwriter may have good points about opera but its not an opera discussion, its a Jackie discussion and whenever you read MAwriter's posts, you would think the topic was opera and not Jackie.
Im sure there is an opera forum somewhere, perfect for MAwriter but I am very confused as to why MAwriter is there or any of the other opera posters, since they arent there to discuss Jackie.
A lot of us have a tendency to slip into "gotcha" mode, pointing out every little mistake by others. I honestly don't mind if someone points out my goofs - as long as it's done constructively, without name-calling etc.
Deuce,
I agree that the flame wars between HappyCamper/MAw & others about opera can get old, & she seems to be in a fair number of them. Still, i believe she's a Jackie fan, & she contributes positively to the blog in her own way.
From personal communications, i know for a fact that 2 of the other opera lovers, Diora & djslopezisl, are big Jackie fans - djs especially is as much of a Jackie lover as anyone.
Those who despise opera want to suggest that nothing Ms. Evancho does has anything to do with opera. This is a preposterous stance. Those who love opera want to suggest that everything she does has something to do with opera. This is also silly.
Unfortunately, I have found those opposed to opera on the Amazon thread to be quite malicious at times and intentionally baiting. Having said that, I agree that MAW/HC is sometimes overly forceful as are several others, and would be better served to ignore comments like those made by deuce8pro. In fact, I believe the opera lovers would be better served to mention opera as little as possible. Virtually any mention of opera tends to ignite some sort of turmoil.
Now, the post in question here was regarding opera's influence on Ms. Evancho's breakthrough and classical singing style. This seems a perfectly acceptable topic for a Jackie Evancho thread.
However, it would have been better left unsaid, given the negative responses (which could and should have been predicted).
Further proof of this are many of the responses to the Huffington Post article by an opera singer, and these responses appeared to be lacking any basis in reality; in this case, simply a mention of Ms. Evancho in an article associated with an "opera" singer set off drama.
It is, therefore, best to limit the topic as much as possible.
Thank you Russ....very interesting!
I am at a genuine loss to understand WHY the very mention of opera sends some Jackie fans into such a spin....anyone able to enlighten me?
I join you in your confusion.
My theory is that these devoted (obsessed?) fans cannot abide any singer who may currently have more skill than Ms. Evancho. They wish for Ms. Evancho to be respected and acknowledged as the greatest singer in the world, which is how they see her. Many of these singers, while not as commercially successful in the recording business, are highly respected and, I imagine, very proud.
Ironically, I believe it may be jealousy. Could that be? I am not sure. But, it seems that anyone with a level of respect in the classical world is attacked. The field which harbors the most technically skilled singers in the world is also attacked.
They say Ms. Evancho does it better, but the vast majority do not agree; those who are highly regarded are criticized. I wonder.....
Hmmm, I think you're right. Is it a dislike of those classical/opera singers who have done the hard graft; the years of training, and who have gained respect in the classical world despite (probably) being quite poorly recompensed? Almost like scorn for those whose art means more to them than commercial or financial success?
Or is it more specifically a dislike of those (either opera fans or classically trained singers) who seem to criticise Jackie?
I haven't read much on Amazon this morning but there are a couple of excellent posts so far by "A reader from Frisco Beach" (is that PG?) and Happy Camper/MAW on the necessity of Jackie having a good, local vocal coach whom she sees regularly. Again, more for vocal safety than actual technical, classical training.
spannerandpony,
From what I can see, since the war with Opera has been going on, from the very beginning, it's the fact that Jackie hasn't put in the time, or hasn't worked for it. When you stop and consider that more than 20% of Jackie's entire life has been dedicated to hard work and teaching herself how to sing while taking care not to harm her voice. That's 1/5 of her life and more
Another big thing that pops up is "Classically Trained!" For some reason a lot of people who are classically trained, think that by being so automatically makes them more Worthy than Jackie. After all they have that degree, and they put in the years, so it must mean they are good, right? I just looked at my Diplomas, and there is no where on it where it says "this Diploma grants you talent!"
My Mother was like that. She was a great "Technical" Pianist, who even had a Concert Debut in the 30s. To her way of thinking, you played the music exactly as it was written on the sheet music in front of you. No more, no less! She had absolutely no feeling for the music she was playing. She was like an Automaton. I know I saw old critiques of her performance, and they all said essentially the same thing, technically beautiful, but lacks expression!
Thank God I didn't inherit that from my mother!
When I play, I already have a picture in my mind of what I want my notes to express to those listening to me play. I just feel the connection with the instrument. It's like energy I can feel flowing through my fingers. I guess I got both mine and my mother's share of expression when it comes to being a Pianist/Organist. I guess you could say that I put everything into my performance (to my great advantage), that my mother lacked in hers!
If you want to see what I think is Obscene Talent, check out 16 year old Conrad Tao's Piano Solo on Imaginer from Jackie's PBS Special, if you have access to it, as there are no links! This kid's fingers on the keys are mesmerizing to watch Conrad absolutely makes love to the keys. He plays an incredible "Harp" with the Piano! Shame it wasn't a Steinway! If you don't have access to it, I'm pretty sure I could send you the 1080p of it with "sendthisfile." It's a 160MB file. If you would like it, let me know.
Best Regards,
Russ
Thanks Russ; I'll have a look and see if I can find that.
Yes, you are of course right about talent and technicality. One could say of course that a great artist needs both; as one of my daughter's ballet teachers puts it:
"Putting the technical muscle memory in place allows the dancer to express emotions and dance artistically". What she means by that is that the girls are trained constantly so that their feet, ankles, legs, core muscles, arms, back, neck and shoulders do the steps without having to think consciously about the correct technical alignment. That frees the dancer up to feel the emotion in the music and to "dance" the story. That safe training is already in place.
A dancer who is purely technical but cannot "feel" the music can be very very good, but will never be a star.
But conversely, the dancer who has all the talent in the world, and feels every emotion, but won't put in the hours and hours of repetition (plies, rond de jambe, tendu after tendu), has just as much trouble becoming a star because they don't have the technical training for their muscles to fall back on. Often they get injured, sometimes they don't get the jobs in the first place because the technique simply isn't there.
Obviously in the singing world, things are slightly different; Jackie is already having amazing commercial success based upon her talent, her voice, and her personality. But without the technical grounding, and weekly or twice weekly lessons from a good qualified vocal coach, will she have the safe grounding, the hours upon hours of exercises, the eradication of bad habits etc. to KEEP her voice healthy and keep her career going in the long term?
Talent is a wonderful wonderful thing to be blessed with. But it needs something else to back it up and keep it safe and working. And that "something else" is classical training and hard, hard work.
Based on my own personal experiences, I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe Lisa to be the best choice until after puberty is complete! I say this because of the mother Daughter thing what with Jackie going through puberty, and the absolute trust Jackie would have for her Mother's opinion, when needed. It's a formula I wouldn't mess with.
Jackie is self taught. That by no means implies that the lessons were through trial and error. Again, I see myself at the same age, having most but not all of Jackie's vocal attributes! Self taught are funny words. When you are a Prodigy of that level, you teach yourself from the knowledge that's in your head already. It's just the right time! You just do it, partly through instinct and partly from what you are seeing in your own mind, explaining it all to you. I know it sounds weird, but that's what it's like. It's like what Jackie says, "something just comes over her!" Emily Bear says the same thing, "It just comes over me!" I know that when I started advanced training 6 months short of 17, and they tried to teach me some techniques to improve my falsetto voice (I never had a Falsetto voice!), I couldn't do it. My voice just wouldn't let me make a sound. It was like I couldn't breathe out for a second. I've got to believe that I couldn't do something to hurt my voice if I tried. When it was discovered by the University ENTs that my Voicebox was decidedly female, in spite of no funny hormones or weird Chromosomes. I trained as a female from then on, with great results, and left school as a Coloratura. Jackie was doing Coloratura at 9! I was probably 18 before I could do what she could do at 9. One of her vocal attributes that wasn't one of my gifts.
Lisa will have had a lot of sound advice from Yvie, and you know Lisa isn't going to do anything to break her Daughter's heart, so I feel she is better off with her Mother than with a stranger, unless she just happens to hit it off like she did with Yvie. Doubtful, but possible. I think Lisa should be her coach!
Best Regards,
Russ
Morning all.
It's still AM there as i start this....
There is an anti-opera feeling in the US that goes back a long way. As djslopezisl pointed out, the Gershwins did everything they could to convince people in the 30s that Porgy & Bess was NOT an "opera," no doubt partly because of this anti-opera prejudice.
Obviously there are many opera fans in the States who keep the NY Met & other large houses going, but others see it as too European, too upper crust, too traditional, too classical, too white, etc, etc. Lots of other genres, from R&B to jazz to rock to rap, have more African influence, so for some, opera brings up the sensitive topic of race in America because of the lack of this influence. Our friends across the pond are seeing, as we speak, how the topic of race can be difficult & sensitive. :eek:
It's true that some Jackie fans don't want to admit that adult opera singers generally have better voices than Jackie, but i think there are huge cultural feelings underlying the anti-opera stance as well.
Very good S&P, they call me "Frisco" on Amazon.
Morning Russ,
You make good points, but there are things Lisa may not know about the voice. We've discussed Jackie's palatal & throat issues here, & a good coach could help Jackie eliminate those.
I don't know if you follow Amazon, but HappyCamper posted about a conversation she had with a respected classical voice teacher who said Jackie had "big talent" but also had "throat" issues. No doubt Lisa is very smart & has already learned a lot about the voice, & of course is very compassionate toward her daughter, but there are ways a good, objective voice teacher could help Jackie. I ask again: what's the downside?
After all, reasonable minds can differ....
PG Antioch,
I did forget to mention that LIsa is a Nurse, so she would have some advance knowledge from Yvie in knowing what to look or look out for. Plus you saw how Lisa was when Rachael was sick. Lisa would have taken down the entire Green Bay front line if they were foolish enough to get in the way of Lisa getting to her baby! What with Puberty already started I just feel it's best for Lisa to continue as Jackie's teacher. A voice teacher isn't going to do anymore than maintain the Status Quo anyway! There's really nothing at this point a voice coach can teach her that she already doesn't know! Ultimately, Jackie's Biological clock is going to determine Jackie's schedule, not a voice coach, or Jackie's Mom! That probably won't be for a couple of years yet! Jackie is in good capable caring hands, and I think it should stay that way, and who knows Jackie inside and out better than her own Mother? I feel that's very important for Jackie. Just my opinion of course, but I think a very valid one!
Best Regards,
Russ
Of course Mrs Evancho has Jackie's best interests at heart, and her medical training as a Nurse is no doubt very useful indeed. Jackie obviously trusts her Mum and listens to her opinion (just watch *that* change in the teenage years!
BUT. And there is a very big but. Unless Mrs. Evancho is a trained, qualified, respected singing teacher, there will be stuff going on - particularly as Jackie enters puberty - that Mrs Evancho will not be qualified to teach or comment on.
It would be akin to me teaching my daughter's ballet classes. She has a natural talent, I have enough knowledge of ballet to know what I should be seeing, in terms of turnout, alignment, port de bras, etc. I can correct little things during my daughter's practice sessions, but that does not make me a qualified ballet teacher.
She teaches herself steps at home, sometimes syllabus steps, sometimes steps that she's seen in a ballet. However, I am absolutely sure that when she gets back to class, there will be something about the step that the teacher will correct - some tiny adjustment - so that it is done safely and without getting into bad habits.
Singing is no different. Just as in dance, that growth spurt though puberty can throw everything off kilter; co-ordination in dance, and vocal changes in singers. I like to think of it as guiding a ship through rough seas into the calm waters of post-puberty - you wouldn't let the Ship's Doctor do the steering, no matter how many times he'd watched the Captain do it!
Lisa isn't just "a nurse," she has a BS in nursing. There are several ways to become a registered nurse, & the BS route is the most academically rigorous & demanding (excluding graduate degrees like PhDs). There are also several levels "below" RN, including LVN/LPN (licensed vocational or practical nurse), nurses' assistant, etc. A BSN is much more prestigious than the other ways of becoming a nurse. :cool:
Lisa's no dummy. I'm sure she's learned a great deal about how to take care of, & develop, Jackie's voice. But like S&P said, she's not an experienced voice teacher.
There could be other explanations. Perhaps they HAVE looked into available voice teachers in Pittsburgh & have nixed them for one reason or another. Lisa may think Jackie is still too young for lessons. :cool:
Of course if she's too young for lessons, maybe she's too young to be a singing superstar like she's becoming. The train is leaving the station, & there's no stopping it now. She's a professional singer. Even if Lisa's doing a superb job, what's the downside of having a professional do some of the teaching? They're already kind of doing that with Yvie & Lorraine Nubar. A coach in Pittsburgh could be available any time for consultation if they're not sure about somethng. Again, what's the downside?
Hi PG,
Is a BS in Nursing like a Nursing Degree here?
Not just your opinion, I happen to agree completely. Jackie certainly isn't too young to have a local teacher just to keep an eye on things, particularly through the difficult pre-teen and early teenage years where the body (and vocal chords) are changing so much.
PG, let me add my voice of support to your position. I also do not see a downside. But we do not see everything, so perhaps there is something we do not know. I have no doubt Mrs. Evancho has considered the various options.
Nevertheless, I was disappointed to see her jump in to a discussion about a teenage opera student's negative tweets about her daughter. To survive in the entertainment industry, one must possess a certain grace - at least in public venues. After listening to this student sing, Mrs Evancho posted. I understand her response to someone who had strongly criticized her daughter, but things like this are not wise.
L. Evancho says:
OMG Snoberg! That was HYSTERICAL!
Yes, I agree CalipsoNot. Mrs Evancho was also asked (several pages ago) on Amazon why she didn't continue with Jackie's previous vocal coach who I believe was local. Mrs Evancho had already said that the coach was "an assembly line teacher" with pupils waiting for their lesson, but when prompted further she replied that she didn't need to go into all the reasons "why she sucked".
Now obviously it's the Evancho's decision to change teachers or to decide not to continue lessons with that teacher, and quite right too. They obviously had their reasons, and those reasons are their business.
However, if the singing world is anything like the ballet world, it's SMALL. It's never wise to publicly slate a teacher - or another singer - in case you ever come across them at a later date, or someone who works with them. I think it would have been wiser to say something very unspecific and diplomatic.