for me when RTD does it right he hits the nail on the head, but when he goes all out he goes way over the top, EG Flying bus, Everybodys the master, Giant Robot, flying doctor with angel robots, etc etc etc
RTD often seems to think of interesting visual images, but is never able to come up with DW plots that such images can work in. Hence they come across as just sheer spectacle for its own sake.
And as soon as we saw the "One year later" caption on LOTTL, I was wondering "Will we see the devastated Earth
being rebuilt in the next series?" But that interesting idea would have frightened away the "Heat" magazine journos ("Too sci-fi! Sci-fi is so uncool, not like Celebrity Love Island!") so we got another Magic Reset Button at the end.
for me when RTD does it right he hits the nail on the head, but when he goes all out he goes way over the top, EG Flying bus, Everybodys the master, Giant Robot, flying doctor with angel robots, etc etc etc
Sometimes you wonder if RTD should have delegated the writing a little more to other writers so he could get on with the job of producing more. Not to say he shouldn't have written anything, but maybe not as much, then maybe his head would have been clearer when it came to writing for the show. Not saying none of what you mentioned wouldn't have happened, just speculating!
He wasn't a producer, as such, though. He didn't deal with the nut and bolts of finance, etc.
Well he was in charge, I think that's what I probably meant. TBH, he could still have taken the pressure of himself by writing less, but as I said, just speculating!
Well he was in charge, I think that's what I probably meant. TBH, he could still have taken the pressure of himself by writing less, but as I said, just speculating!
I assume the show runner's episode count is contractual, though? Moffat's in the same position regarding number of episodes.
The "Dobby-Doctor" was ridiculous, and it made believing in the story completely impossible. It was like something out "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" or "The Mask", where we see an actor turned into an animated cartoon character.
RTD told SFX magazine :
Well, if RTD can't write anything except "nonsense" for the Master when he encounters the lead character, why bring the Master back at all? Why not create some villain better suited to RTD's strengths as a writer then?
It does help if you put in his whole quote rather than picking choosingto make it sound like he has no idea howto write the Master and the Doctor together....he gives his reasons as to why its a hard job....not necessarily writing it...but making it more real....
You’re bringing back the Master. There’s such a good dynamic between John Simm and David. Did you want to build on that?
“I think one of the only problems with ‘Last Of The Time Lords’ is that they didn’t have much material together. It’s really, really hard to put the Doctor and the Master in a scene together, unless you start writing nonsense, like they say, ‘Ha ha, let’s team up to save the universe!’ And then the Master double-crosses him behind his back… There are rubbish ways of bringing them together. But really, to put the Doctor in a room with a mass murderer is really difficult, because he’s not going to let him go. And he’s not going to forgive him, he’s not going to let him loose onto other people. So if you treat it as real then you really can’t have them together for long, because either one of them would do something about it. The Master would kill the Doctor or the Doctor would stop the Master.
“But I’ve found ways around it. They have much more screen time together this time. But there’s a limit to it. You can’t have great long scenes of them having a chat together, because they are absolute opposites. And I had no idea that John Simm is such a genre fan! I didn’t realise this the first time I worked with him, but you can sit and have a half-hour conversation with him about Superman and The X-Men. He loves all that sort of stuff.”
Which I feel is a fair enough reason...even looking at all the classic stories....that is what pretty much happend....the Doctor and Master would be mistrustful of each other, either try pairing up, and then the Master Double crossing him...
But tha isn't the reason we got the dobby Doctor.....he is generally talking about us not seeing that many scenes with them togther...and in the commentery he mentions writing the final cliff scene because he felt that that the Doctor and Master didn't have many scenes together....
I assume the show runner's episode count is contractual, though? Moffat's in the same position regarding number of episodes.
I don't know to be honest. It must be a tough job to have write so many episodes and run the show at the same time. I think Moffat has been affected slightly by it, a couple of his stories in Series 5 I was disappointed in, but the others were up to the high standard of the previous ones.
I assume the show runner's episode count is contractual, though? Moffat's in the same position regarding number of episodes.
It could be...the lowest he as ever written, and the same which Moff will do next year is 5....although in series 4 it would have been four, but Midnight had to replace another writer.....
The 'resurrection' of the Dr by the combined thoughts of the people is no more or less ridiculous than the idea of Amy bringing the Dr back simply by remembering him.....
Less ridiculous, IMO. Everyone joined together in one last desperate act, hoping against hope that it would work and rid them of their tyrannical master. And it did work, because it was using the very method that the Master had set up to subjugate them to overthrow him.
Well, if RTD can't write anything except "nonsense" for the Master when he encounters the lead character, why bring the Master back at all? Why not create some villain better suited to RTD's strengths as a writer then?
But inTEoT the Doctor and the Master had some great scenes together, with really good dialogue, so what did RTD mean here?
Less ridiculous, IMO. Everyone joined together in one last desperate act, hoping against hope that it would work and rid them of their tyrannical master. And it did work, because it was using the very method that the Master had set up to subjugate them to overthrow him.
But inTEoT the Doctor and the Master had some great scenes together, with really good dialogue, so what did RTD mean here?
I have put the whole quote above Granny...should explain it better...:)
It does help if you put in his whole quote rather than picking choosingto make it sound like he has no idea howto write the Master and the Doctor together....he gives his reasons as to why its a hard job....not necessarily writing it...but making it more real....
Which I feel is a fair enough reason...even looking at all the classic stories....that is what pretty much happend....the Doctor and Master would be mistrustful of each other, either try pairing up, and then the Master Double crossing him...
But tha isn't the reason we got the dobby Doctor.....he is generally talking about us not seeing that many scenes with them togther...and in the commentery he mentions writing the final cliff scene because he felt that that the Doctor and Master didn't have many scenes together....
Thanks, Crazzy, you've just answered my question:)(Posts crossed!)
It does help if you put in his whole quote rather than picking choosingto make it sound like he has no idea howto write the Master and the Doctor together
I'm so silly. Sorry, I barely watch Doctor Who... I've been in prison since 2003... I know now that some people have opinions which totally eclipse everyone else's... I should respect that... I promise I will remember for next time:o
See? Is it really so difficult not to take things out of context and pick and choose "quotes" to suit one's argument, crazzy???
Which I feel is a fair enough reason...even looking at all the classic stories....that is what pretty much happend....the Doctor and Master would be mistrustful of each other, either try pairing up, and then the Master Double crossing him...
My memory of the Pertwee stories is a bit rusty, but I'm sure the Doctor & Master only "teamed up" in a few Pertwee stories. Besides, the dynamic was different-of enemies,
but with a grudging respect, and a hope that the other
might be won over to their point of view.(in CIS the Master tries to win the Doctor over) And the original plan was to have the Master redeem himself in POTS. But ever since "The Deadly Assassin", that possibility of redemption for the Master has gone-in fact the Tom Doctor acknowledges in TDA and Logopolis that this isn't the
same Master his Third Incarnation had a grudging respect
for.
But tha isn't the reason we got the dobby Doctor.....he is generally talking about us not seeing that many scenes with them togther...and in the commentery he mentions writing the final cliff scene because he felt that that the Doctor and Master didn't have many scenes together....
What happens in the scenes? The Master gloats, and the Doctor spews some bland moralisms. Where's the dramatic energy we got in "The Sea Devils" or "Survival"?
What exactly is the Master's plan, anyway? Immobilize the Doctor, beat up his wife, bully the slaves, and then fire some rockets into space? How does that give any scope for drama to develop?
My memory of the Pertwee stories is a bit rusty, but I'm sure the Doctor & Master only "teamed up" in a few Pertwee stories. Besides, the dynamic was different-of enemies,
but with a grudging respect, and a hope that the other
might be won over to their point of view.(in CIS the Master tries to win the Doctor over) And the original plan was to have the Master redeem himself in POTS. But ever since "The Deadly Assassin", that possibility of redemption for the Master has gone-in fact the Tom Doctor acknowledges in TDA and Logopolis that this isn't the
same Master his Third Incarnation had a grudging respect
for.
In the very Logopolis, they try to team up, with the master double crossing him....
the point is that they tend to go through circles of what the are to each other....the new series does it to, which is why RTD limits their scenes....a new dynamic in the new series was that the Doctor not only wanted to stop the Master but to help him, to keep him alive as he was desparate not to be the only Time Lord left...that added another dimension to it.
What happens in the scenes? The Master gloats, and the Doctor spews some bland moralisms. Where's the dramatic energy we got in "The Sea Devils" or "Survival"?
What exactly is the Master's plan, anyway? Immobilize the Doctor, beat up his wife, bully the slaves, and then fire some rockets into space? How does that give any scope for drama to develop?
His plan, as stated in the story is that he wants to build his gallifrey, his own empire where he is the master if the universe...something which has always been his motive....and the drama is in the fact that the Master is building this empire using the very people the Doctor loves...the point is that we see the Master bring the Doctor to his lowest point....killing him would be the easy option....
You may have not liked the drama....but its still there....
you don't have to like the dobby doctor...niether do I, I would have prefferd to see Tennant and Simms facing of each other too....but the point of it was to show the Master bringing him down, showing the whole world his true age...because he felt this would break the Doctor.....its really dark stuff. And its still a motive
Again the Dobby Doctor isn't there to replace the nonesense....we really don't have that many scenes between the Doctor and th Master with the dobby included....
His plan, as stated in the story is that he wants to build his gallifrey, his own empire where he is the master if the universe...something which has always been his motive
How do you build any kind of "empire" by simply firing rockets
out into space? Why has the Master no plans for transporting
armies to invade and occupy other planets, like we have seen
both the Daleks and Sontarans do, and as every real-world
empire-builder from the Ancient Romans to Saddam Hussein did?
How do you build any kind of "empire" by simply firing rockets
out into space? Why has the Master no plans for transporting
armies to invade and occupy other planets, like we have seen
both the Daleks and Sontarans do, and as every real-world
empire-builder from the Ancient Romans to Saddam Hussein did?
Have you forgotten all the other naff plans the Master's had?
How do you build any kind of "empire" by simply firing rockets
out into space? Why has the Master no plans for transporting
armies to invade and occupy other planets, like we have seen
both the Daleks and Sontarans do, and as every real-world
empire-builder from the Ancient Romans to Saddam Hussein did?
He wasn't simply firing rockets...he was going to start wars...and and destroy other planets....and the Toclafane seemed more than capable of flying, and occupying a whole race....at least to the Master knowledge.....and he was mad enough to think this was possible...but then is that any different to the Master thinking that he would be be able to get Dæmon to give his powers to him? Or his plans to hold the whole universe as a hostage....
This is the Master we are talking about here!!!!:D
I don't mind Dobby-Doctor so much as the very silly special effect they use when he's being Dobbyfied, jerking around madly. It just looks utterly ridiculous and I still wince every time I watch it. I have the same problem with the bit where everyone turns into the Master in The End of Time.
Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords is my least favourite finale (and series 3 is my least favourite of New Who), but there's a lot I like about the episode. Mainly the Tochlafane, who are probably the darkest, most disturbing creations in all 5 series. The Doctor's return isn't the most elegant solution I've ever seen, but I suppose I can live with it.
I can't have John Simm as the Master, though. It's just personal taste. There's enjoyably hammy acting and then there's gnawing on the scenery. The sad thing is I actually quite liked him in the role during his more subdued moments in The End of Time, but he makes me cringe when he's in cackling maniac mode. I can't help wishing Derek Jacobi had stuck around for all three episodes.
He wasn't simply firing rockets...he was going to start wars...and and destroy other planets....and the Toclafane seemed more than capable of flying, and occupying a whole race....at least to the Master knowledge.....and he was mad enough to think this was possible...but then is that any different to the Master thinking that he would be be able to get Dæmon to give his powers to him? Or his plans to hold the whole universe as a hostage....
This is the Master we are talking about here!!!!:D
Which reminds me-few of RTD's villains have convincing motivations. They either have something trivial (the Adipose scheme in PIC, or the insurance fraud in VOTD) or crazy random schemes (the Master or Davros). I suspect he wasn't interested in giving the Doctor anything like a thoughtful planned believable antagonist, as opposed to one who would cause lots of flashy SFX and make the Doctor emote randomly before the inevitable magic reset
button.
One of the nice things about "The Beast Below", for instance, is that some thought went into creating to creating the Smilers/Winders and the moral dilemma they challenged the Doctor with (the Smilers wanted to protect their society, even at the cost of terrible suffering to the Star Whale). We rarely got anything like that when RTD was in charge.
TBB's reset was explained in far greater detail IMO.
The Pandorica was constructed around Amy's memories, and the crack in her wall meant that she had had the universe pouring into her head ever since she was a little girl.
I.e the Pandorica would inevitably contain materials linked to Amelia's contact with the universe.
As the Pandorica's light was transmitted throughout the whole of time & space, I have no problem in accepting that Amy "remembered him back into existence" (so to speak.)
The Pandorica restored the universe via the material from Amy's memories/ the cracks. Amy remembers the Doctor = the Pandorica contains a portion of him, and therefore restores him.
I've had time to try and work this out. It sounds complicated, but once you think about it, it really is simple
Compared to LotTL, TBB had more of an "in depth" feeling to it - we had so much information hidden throughout the series, clues about Amy's memories & the cracks slowly emerging at a more or less even pace.
To me, that explains why the resolution to series 5 was much better than the whole world chanting the Doctor's name whilst Jack does what he could have done from the very begginning to activate a reset button that pretty much came out of the blue
Oh, and "Planet Earth Restored!" - that really made the series 3 reset worse :mad:
Which reminds me-few of RTD's villains have convincing motivations. They either have something trivial (the Adipose scheme in PIC, or the insurance fraud in VOTD) or crazy random schemes (the Master or Davros). I suspect he wasn't interested in giving the Doctor anything like a thoughtful planned believable antagonist, as opposed to one who would cause lots of flashy SFX and make the Doctor emote randomly before the inevitable magic reset
button.
One of the nice things about "The Beast Below", for instance, is that some thought went into creating to creating the Smilers/Winders and the moral dilemma they challenged the Doctor with (the Smilers wanted to protect their society, even at the cost of terrible suffering to the Star Whale). We rarely got anything like that when RTD was in charge.
Could you tell me more about the origins and motivations of the Smilers/Winders? I haven't seen that episode.
Could you tell me more about the origins and motivations of the Smilers/Winders? I haven't seen that episode.
If you don't mind SPOILERS...
The Smilers were were the robots resposible for guarding Starship UK. The Winders were scary Hooded guys that were responsible for making everyone forget the awful truth: that Starship UK was built on a Space Whale that is tortured by being given electricity. The Winders made the populace of the Ship regularly forget about this, afraid that changing this situation would cause the Ship-and the Human race-to be destroyed.
Now, what the Smilers/Winders were doing was wrong, and the Doctor and Amy ultimately stopped the whale being tortured, but they had a reason for doing what they did,which was understandable. They made TBB a much better story than LOTTL as a result.
Comments
RTD often seems to think of interesting visual images, but is never able to come up with DW plots that such images can work in. Hence they come across as just sheer spectacle for its own sake.
And as soon as we saw the "One year later" caption on LOTTL, I was wondering "Will we see the devastated Earth
being rebuilt in the next series?" But that interesting idea would have frightened away the "Heat" magazine journos ("Too sci-fi! Sci-fi is so uncool, not like Celebrity Love Island!") so we got another Magic Reset Button at the end.
Sometimes you wonder if RTD should have delegated the writing a little more to other writers so he could get on with the job of producing more. Not to say he shouldn't have written anything, but maybe not as much, then maybe his head would have been clearer when it came to writing for the show. Not saying none of what you mentioned wouldn't have happened, just speculating!
He wasn't a producer, as such, though. He didn't deal with the nut and bolts of finance, etc.
Well he was in charge, I think that's what I probably meant. TBH, he could still have taken the pressure of himself by writing less, but as I said, just speculating!
I assume the show runner's episode count is contractual, though? Moffat's in the same position regarding number of episodes.
It does help if you put in his whole quote rather than picking choosingto make it sound like he has no idea howto write the Master and the Doctor together....he gives his reasons as to why its a hard job....not necessarily writing it...but making it more real....
Which I feel is a fair enough reason...even looking at all the classic stories....that is what pretty much happend....the Doctor and Master would be mistrustful of each other, either try pairing up, and then the Master Double crossing him...
But tha isn't the reason we got the dobby Doctor.....he is generally talking about us not seeing that many scenes with them togther...and in the commentery he mentions writing the final cliff scene because he felt that that the Doctor and Master didn't have many scenes together....
I don't know to be honest. It must be a tough job to have write so many episodes and run the show at the same time. I think Moffat has been affected slightly by it, a couple of his stories in Series 5 I was disappointed in, but the others were up to the high standard of the previous ones.
It could be...the lowest he as ever written, and the same which Moff will do next year is 5....although in series 4 it would have been four, but Midnight had to replace another writer.....
Less ridiculous, IMO. Everyone joined together in one last desperate act, hoping against hope that it would work and rid them of their tyrannical master. And it did work, because it was using the very method that the Master had set up to subjugate them to overthrow him.
But inTEoT the Doctor and the Master had some great scenes together, with really good dialogue, so what did RTD mean here?
I have put the whole quote above Granny...should explain it better...:)
Thanks, Crazzy, you've just answered my question:)(Posts crossed!)
:mad: Context schmontext!
Ahh timey wimey strikes again!!!!:D
I'm so Sorry...will remember for next time:o
See? Is it really so difficult not to take things out of context and pick and choose "quotes" to suit one's argument, crazzy???
but with a grudging respect, and a hope that the other
might be won over to their point of view.(in CIS the Master tries to win the Doctor over) And the original plan was to have the Master redeem himself in POTS. But ever since "The Deadly Assassin", that possibility of redemption for the Master has gone-in fact the Tom Doctor acknowledges in TDA and Logopolis that this isn't the
same Master his Third Incarnation had a grudging respect
for.
What happens in the scenes? The Master gloats, and the Doctor spews some bland moralisms. Where's the dramatic energy we got in "The Sea Devils" or "Survival"?
What exactly is the Master's plan, anyway? Immobilize the Doctor, beat up his wife, bully the slaves, and then fire some rockets into space? How does that give any scope for drama to develop?
He He...:D:D:D....
I mean...yes sir understood....:o
In the very Logopolis, they try to team up, with the master double crossing him....
the point is that they tend to go through circles of what the are to each other....the new series does it to, which is why RTD limits their scenes....a new dynamic in the new series was that the Doctor not only wanted to stop the Master but to help him, to keep him alive as he was desparate not to be the only Time Lord left...that added another dimension to it.
His plan, as stated in the story is that he wants to build his gallifrey, his own empire where he is the master if the universe...something which has always been his motive....and the drama is in the fact that the Master is building this empire using the very people the Doctor loves...the point is that we see the Master bring the Doctor to his lowest point....killing him would be the easy option....
You may have not liked the drama....but its still there....
you don't have to like the dobby doctor...niether do I, I would have prefferd to see Tennant and Simms facing of each other too....but the point of it was to show the Master bringing him down, showing the whole world his true age...because he felt this would break the Doctor.....its really dark stuff. And its still a motive
Again the Dobby Doctor isn't there to replace the nonesense....we really don't have that many scenes between the Doctor and th Master with the dobby included....
How do you build any kind of "empire" by simply firing rockets
out into space? Why has the Master no plans for transporting
armies to invade and occupy other planets, like we have seen
both the Daleks and Sontarans do, and as every real-world
empire-builder from the Ancient Romans to Saddam Hussein did?
Have you forgotten all the other naff plans the Master's had?
He wasn't simply firing rockets...he was going to start wars...and and destroy other planets....and the Toclafane seemed more than capable of flying, and occupying a whole race....at least to the Master knowledge.....and he was mad enough to think this was possible...but then is that any different to the Master thinking that he would be be able to get Dæmon to give his powers to him? Or his plans to hold the whole universe as a hostage....
This is the Master we are talking about here!!!!:D
Well there is a nice some up of my post!!!!:D
Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords is my least favourite finale (and series 3 is my least favourite of New Who), but there's a lot I like about the episode. Mainly the Tochlafane, who are probably the darkest, most disturbing creations in all 5 series. The Doctor's return isn't the most elegant solution I've ever seen, but I suppose I can live with it.
I can't have John Simm as the Master, though. It's just personal taste. There's enjoyably hammy acting and then there's gnawing on the scenery. The sad thing is I actually quite liked him in the role during his more subdued moments in The End of Time, but he makes me cringe when he's in cackling maniac mode. I can't help wishing Derek Jacobi had stuck around for all three episodes.
Which reminds me-few of RTD's villains have convincing motivations. They either have something trivial (the Adipose scheme in PIC, or the insurance fraud in VOTD) or crazy random schemes (the Master or Davros). I suspect he wasn't interested in giving the Doctor anything like a thoughtful planned believable antagonist, as opposed to one who would cause lots of flashy SFX and make the Doctor emote randomly before the inevitable magic reset
button.
One of the nice things about "The Beast Below", for instance, is that some thought went into creating to creating the Smilers/Winders and the moral dilemma they challenged the Doctor with (the Smilers wanted to protect their society, even at the cost of terrible suffering to the Star Whale). We rarely got anything like that when RTD was in charge.
The Pandorica was constructed around Amy's memories, and the crack in her wall meant that she had had the universe pouring into her head ever since she was a little girl.
I.e the Pandorica would inevitably contain materials linked to Amelia's contact with the universe.
As the Pandorica's light was transmitted throughout the whole of time & space, I have no problem in accepting that Amy "remembered him back into existence" (so to speak.)
The Pandorica restored the universe via the material from Amy's memories/ the cracks. Amy remembers the Doctor = the Pandorica contains a portion of him, and therefore restores him.
I've had time to try and work this out. It sounds complicated, but once you think about it, it really is simple
Compared to LotTL, TBB had more of an "in depth" feeling to it - we had so much information hidden throughout the series, clues about Amy's memories & the cracks slowly emerging at a more or less even pace.
To me, that explains why the resolution to series 5 was much better than the whole world chanting the Doctor's name whilst Jack does what he could have done from the very begginning to activate a reset button that pretty much came out of the blue
Oh, and "Planet Earth Restored!" - that really made the series 3 reset worse :mad:
Could you tell me more about the origins and motivations of the Smilers/Winders? I haven't seen that episode.
If you don't mind SPOILERS...
The Smilers were were the robots resposible for guarding Starship UK. The Winders were scary Hooded guys that were responsible for making everyone forget the awful truth: that Starship UK was built on a Space Whale that is tortured by being given electricity. The Winders made the populace of the Ship regularly forget about this, afraid that changing this situation would cause the Ship-and the Human race-to be destroyed.
Now, what the Smilers/Winders were doing was wrong, and the Doctor and Amy ultimately stopped the whale being tortured, but they had a reason for doing what they did,which was understandable. They made TBB a much better story than LOTTL as a result.