Stolen Theory...

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  • ea91ea91 Posts: 2,363
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    Pull2Open wrote: »
    It never ceases to amaze me how people can categorically with full conviction, state that someone elses theory is wrong when NONE of us know anything!

    She saw 11 faces yes, and?

    And not one of them was John Hurt's. Clara specifically pointed out that Hurt was not one of the eleven Doctors that she saw, how much less ambiguous can it be? Hurt is not the Hartnell incarnation, he is not the Troughton incarnation...and he is not the McGann incarnation. Eleven said Hurt did not act in the name of the Doctor, we know that McGann did. And at the end he was formally introduced, if this was the same Doctor as McGann it would not make sense to do this.
  • Pull2OpenPull2Open Posts: 15,138
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    ea91 wrote: »
    And not one of them was John Hurt's. Clara specifically pointed out that Hurt was not one of the eleven Doctors that she saw, how much less ambiguous can it be? Hurt is not the Hartnell incarnation, he is not the Troughton incarnation...and he is not the McGann incarnation. Eleven said Hurt did not act in the name of the Doctor, we know that McGann did. And at the end he was formally introduced, if this was the same Doctor as McGann it would not make sense to do this.

    Well, considering we did not see the McGann regeneration, so it could be the McGann Doctor but much older! The McGann Doctor may have done lots of things in the name of the Doctor but one final act may have tarred it all! I am theorising, its entirely plausible!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,772
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    still - Hurt was a Doctor , so therefore MS is the 12th doctor , or Hurt is an aged version of McGann or one of the others .

    the Valeyard was also the Doctor - but he wasn't an actual (future) incarnation of the Doctor.
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    the Valeyard was also the Doctor - but he wasn't an actual (future) incarnation of the Doctor.

    :confused: so what was the Valeyard ?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,027
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    Irrespective of the inclusion of the Zelig-like Oswin within the timeline of previous Doctors (1963-89, 1996), the 2005+ series remains entirely non canon to the 1963-89 series. No amount of wishful thinking on the part of Stephen Moiffatt can change a scientific fact.

    Conversely, some of the themes introduced within the original series may be introduced, and given that the "The Valeyard" was referred to within the most recent episode, it is quite possible that John Hurt's character could represent the character previously portrayed by Michael Jayston - or, from Freudian analyses, the part of personality referred to as the 'Id' - the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    still - Hurt was a Doctor , so therefore MS is the 12th doctor , or Hurt is an aged version of McGann or one of the others .

    The point of my theory was to suggest how it is possible that other incarnations of the Doctor or, more specifically, the entity currently called the Doctor, could exist in the Doctor's timestream without Clara having known them.

    So, yes, it is possible, and in my opinion probable, that he is an earlier incarnation to MS.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,772
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    :confused: so what was the Valeyard ?

    an amalgamation (of the Doctor's darker side) somewhere between the twelfth and final incarnation of the Doctor

    He's a Watcher like projection.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 955
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    DariaM wrote: »
    Irrespective of the inclusion of the Zelig-like Oswin within the timeline of previous Doctors (1963-89, 1996), the 2005+ series remains entirely non canon to the 1963-89 series. No amount of wishful thinking on the part of Stephen Moiffatt can change a scientific fact.

    Conversely, some of the themes introduced within the original series may be introduced, and given that the "The Valeyard" was referred to within the most recent episode, it is quite possible that John Hurt's character could represent the character previously portrayed by Michael Jayston - or, from Freudian analyses, the part of personality referred to as the 'Id' - the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends.

    Goodness Daria... I didn't know that science governed the laws of television these days... I thought that was producers... Are you a producer/scientist? Because you seem pretty sure that general canon is only decided by you and no-one else... The fact is that DariaM does not count the post 2005 show as canon... No more... No less...
  • ea91ea91 Posts: 2,363
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    Pull2Open wrote: »
    Well, considering we did not see the McGann regeneration, so it could be the McGann Doctor but much older! The McGann Doctor may have done lots of things in the name of the Doctor but one final act may have tarred it all! I am theorising, its entirely plausible!

    Well you're entitled to your opinion and mine is that it's not plausible purely on the basis that Moffat established Hurt isn't one of the eleven through Clara. He didn't give too many clues, but he made that one fact clear. And even if he hadn't, which he totally did, we can all see that John Hurt is not Paul McGann. And so can Clara.
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    Thrombin wrote: »
    The way I see it, The Great Intelligence researched the Doctor to the best of his knowledge and research abilities and identified the 11 standard Doctors that we know about. When he went into the Doctor's timestream he targetted the times and places that he had researched in order to sabotage the Doctor's efforts at those points. Clara just followed the GI.

    Therefore, any secret Doctors or future Doctors that the GI hadn't found in his research would not have been visited by either the GI or by Clara.

    Interesting idea. You could be right.

    But I was under the impression that it might have been a scattergun approach and Clara was echoed millions of times in the universe and had millions of lives growing up.
    So I'm not sure about the reliability of it being a targeted approach or what would make her meet all these Doctors.
    I'm really not sure exactly how it worked.
    If they had a bit more time in the episode and showed a bit more of what The Great Intelligence got up to in the timstream instead of brief snippets it may have helped.
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    an amalgamation (of the Doctor's darker side) somewhere between the twelfth and final incarnation of the Doctor

    He's a Watcher like projection.

    Like the Dream Master, but made real?
  • Pull2OpenPull2Open Posts: 15,138
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    ea91 wrote: »
    Well you're entitled to your opinion and mine is that it's not plausible purely on the basis that Moffat established Hurt isn't one of the eleven through Clara. He didn't give too many clues, but he made that one fact clear. And even if he hadn't, which he totally did, we can all see that John Hurt is not Paul McGann. And so can Clara.

    Well of course Hurt is not McGann :confused:

    Yep, the Moff has a habit of establishing facts and being absolutely clear doesn't he! Anyway, time will tell!
  • sebbie3000sebbie3000 Posts: 5,188
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    DariaM wrote: »
    Irrespective of the inclusion of the Zelig-like Oswin within the timeline of previous Doctors (1963-89, 1996), the 2005+ series remains entirely non canon to the 1963-89 series. No amount of wishful thinking on the part of Stephen Moiffatt can change a scientific fact.

    Conversely, some of the themes introduced within the original series may be introduced, and given that the "The Valeyard" was referred to within the most recent episode, it is quite possible that John Hurt's character could represent the character previously portrayed by Michael Jayston - or, from Freudian analyses, the part of personality referred to as the 'Id' - the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends.

    Are you ever going to drop this nonsense? It is quite clear that you cannot know what you are talking about.

    'Fact'?

    Dear, you clearly don't understand the word.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    Interesting idea. You could be right.

    But I was under the impression that it might have been a scattergun approach and Clara was echoed millions of times in the universe and had millions of lives growing up.
    So I'm not sure about the reliability of it being a targeted approach or what would make her meet all these Doctors.
    I'm really not sure exactly how it worked.
    If they had a bit more time in the episode and showed a bit more of what The Great Intelligence got up to in the timstream instead of brief snippets it may have helped.

    I guess it depends how much control they get over where they go. I imagine that the GI, being pure thought, might have more control than Clara but it may also be that the GI burned pathways to get to where he wanted and Clara's echoes just followed the paths of least resistance.

    The thing is, if it was a pure random scatter gun then how do we explain why Clara didn't meet John Hurt's Doctor or, for that matter, any future Doctors. I just came up with the targetted approach because I couldn't think of any other explanation.
  • Pull2OpenPull2Open Posts: 15,138
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    sebbie3000 wrote: »
    Are you ever going to drop this nonsense? It is quite clear that you cannot know what you are talking about.

    'Fact'?

    Dear, you clearly don't understand the word.

    Why oh why did you reply?
  • CoalHillJanitorCoalHillJanitor Posts: 15,634
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    Torry_Z wrote: »
    Goodness Daria... I didn't know that science governed the laws of television these days...

    Of course! Don't you see, a 16:9 universe can't exist within a 4:3 universe! No more than a colour universe could exist within a ...... hang on.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    But I was under the impression that it might have been a scattergun approach and Clara was echoed millions of times in the universe and had millions of lives growing up.
    So I'm not sure about the reliability of it being a targeted approach or what would make her meet all these Doctors.
    I'm really not sure exactly how it worked.

    It wasn't scattergun - Clara and the GI both specifically entered the Doctor's timeline, and were splintered across the events in the Doctor's life, not across time and space as a whole.

    Look at it this way - they must meet at a critical point in the Doctor's life, because if any of them failed, the Doctor would be dead.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,753
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    Clara only needed to go where the GI went.

    Obviously the GI didn't 'need' to go after the John Hurt 'Doctor'. Therefore Clara didn't see him.

    Simples.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 955
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    Of course! Don't you see, a 16:9 universe can't exist within a 4:3 universe! No more than a colour universe could exist within a ...... hang on.

    Follow the yellow brick road...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 141
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    DariaM wrote: »
    Irrespective of the inclusion of the Zelig-like Oswin within the timeline of previous Doctors (1963-89, 1996), the 2005+ series remains entirely non canon to the 1963-89 series. No amount of wishful thinking on the part of Stephen Moiffatt can change a scientific fact.

    As Doctor Tennant would say...

    What? What? WHAT?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 33
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    DariaM wrote: »
    Irrespective of the inclusion of the Zelig-like Oswin within the timeline of previous Doctors (1963-89, 1996), the 2005+ series remains entirely non canon to the 1963-89 series. No amount of wishful thinking on the part of Stephen Moiffatt can change a scientific fact.

    It's not 'fact' that is upsetting people, it's scientific.

    I for one understand (I think, not sure, factually speaking) what DariaM is saying, namely that there is a 'Doctor Story' which is/has been put together post-2005 wholly unconceived (let alone born) before then.

    This shouldn't surprise us at all; it's TV, and it's fiction.

    What I find surprising is that people assume that the 'solution' to all this is actually there in the past, that somehow Terry Nation et al 'knew' how RTD, Moff and co would 'end the story'.

    Frankly that's as bonkers as Bible believers who think that Moses knew about King David, or that King David knew he was setting it all up for Jesus to come along. But those analogies are for another thread :D

    Meanwhile, I'm assuming that a) since the present Doctor recognised the Hurt non-Doctor, it's firmly in the past of the timeline and b) that the non-recognition by Clara, who recognised all the others is simply non-recognition of the person she was born to save.

    Oddly, there are plenty of pseudo-Christian thoughts in that also. Must get on and write the book.
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    Thrombin wrote: »
    I guess it depends how much control they get over where they go. I imagine that the GI, being pure thought, might have more control than Clara but it may also be that the GI burned pathways to get to where he wanted and Clara's echoes just followed the paths of least resistance.

    The thing is, if it was a pure random scatter gun then how do we explain why Clara didn't meet John Hurt's Doctor or, for that matter, any future Doctors. I just came up with the targetted approach because I couldn't think of any other explanation.

    Because he was in that mysterious place at the end where no other Doctors were?
    He is there, and she did see him, in whatever place that is.
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    It wasn't scattergun - Clara and the GI both specifically entered the Doctor's timeline, and were splintered across the events in the Doctor's life, not across time and space as a whole.

    Look at it this way - they must meet at a critical point in the Doctor's life, because if any of them failed, the Doctor would be dead.

    Yes I know that, but she wasn't placed in exact locations as soon as she went in. It did show her in a few of the brief clips as a baby, and as a young girl growing up. It wasn't as though she was instantly plonked in specific locations where the Doctor happened to be. She apparently lived lives as all these different versions of Clara.
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