Hindsight is a wonderful thing but here in Glasgow, we are a working class city. We have a strong work ethic. We don't like to be off work, if we can work we do. It's just our nature.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but here in Glasgow, we are a working class city. We have a strong work ethic. We don't like to be off work, if we can work we do. It's just our nature.
What has work ethics got to do with anything? The driver clearly wasn't well and the query, for me anyway, is if these "blackouts" were regular, declared and / or investigated.
What has work ethics got to do with anything? The driver clearly wasn't well and the query, for me anyway, is if these "blackouts" were regular, declared and / or investigated.
< rolls eyes >
Forgive my ignorance, but what I have read said he only felt unwell in the canteen, it doesn't mention that the blacked out. Unless I have missed it somewhere.
Feeling unwell can come and go, you could feel unwell and then half an hour later feel perfectly fine.
Forgive my ignorance, but what I have read said he only felt unwell in the canteen, it doesn't mention that the blacked out. Unless I have missed it somewhere.
Feeling unwell can come and go, you could feel unwell and then half an hour later feel perfectly fine.
Passing out is mentioned in the BBC article, but the reason for asking this is unclear.
Ms Bain asked Mr Stewart if he knew Mr Clarke had reported passing out in a canteen at work that same day in 2010.
I sounds like something pretty minor to me, but who knows.
Putting it bluntly you simply cannot hold either a PSV or HGV if you have a history of epilepsy. There is no provision for it. You may well have been 'fit free' for 20 or 30 years.....but you won't get your hands on a PSV/HGV licence. Even a race licence (to drive) will be refused by the MSA though you can get a co-driver licence.
A car driving licence doesn't have the same restrictions.
Forgive my ignorance, but what I have read said he only felt unwell in the canteen, it doesn't mention that the blacked out. Unless I have missed it somewhere.
Feeling unwell can come and go, you could feel unwell and then half an hour later feel perfectly fine.
Edited, just noticed anne_666 has provided the link.
The important words to note are 'at least' and 'without use of anti-epileptic medication'.
DVLA's Medical Assessment Board is notoriously stringent for obvious reasons. The 10 year rule doesn't apply to car licence holders (its 12 months) and they can also drive on medication. An HGV/PSV driver cannot.
I heard this on the news last night and the driver has no knowledge at all of what happened. I'm not surprised at that but am shocked that he has suffered a blackout previously whilst driving a bus.
So what will come under very serious examination and questioning is why and how he was able to retain his PSV and HGV licences. Whilst someone with a medical history of 'blackouts' or epilepsy can hold a car driving licence (as long as they have been 'fit free' for a year or more),
as far as PSV/HGV goes it's not even possible to hold one.
Somebody has some very serious questions to answer.
Putting it bluntly you simply cannot hold either a PSV or HGV if you have a history of epilepsy. There is no provision for it. You may well have been 'fit free' for 20 or 30 years.....but you won't get your hands on a PSV/HGV licence[ Even a race licence (to drive) will be refused by the MSA though you can get a co-driver licence.
A car driving licence doesn't have the same restrictions.
I suspect he may not have declared to the DVLA.....but that then brings into question how did he manage to get a job with the Council driving a bin truck? The medical history would be down on his records from the Bus company.
Someone will be facing extremely serious charges here.
The important words to note are 'at least' and 'without use of anti-epileptic medication'.
DVLA's Medical Assessment Board is notoriously stringent for obvious reasons. The 10 year rule doesn't apply to car licence holders (its 12 months) and they can also drive on medication. An HGV/PSV driver cannot.
I'm fully aware of what the important words mean.
He was told by the company Doctor he didn't need to report this to the DVLA. 12 months for car drivers only applies to a one off seizure.
You are 'picking' the wrong person to argue the legalities with on this particular topic and my 'assertions' as you put it are not incorrect.
12 months for car drivers only applies to a one off seizure.
No it does not.
It's applicable to each seizure a driver suffers and if the condition worsens, the DVLA MB may refuse an applicant altogether. Even an applicants GP can be overruled by the DVLA MB. There possibly isn't any mention of that in that pdf file but believe me they can do, and have. Their word is final.
At one time the period of car driving licence revocation used to be 3 years, then it got reduced to 2 years and finally down to one year.
The BBC are saying that according to a ticket inspector he passed out once before, this time at the wheel of a bus, but got away with it as it was parked at a bus stop at the time.
The BBC are saying that according to a ticket inspector he passed out once before, this time at the wheel of a bus, but got away with it as it was parked at a bus stop at the time.
You are 'picking' the wrong person to argue the legalities with on this particular topic and my 'assertions' as you put it are not incorrect.
It's applicable to each seizure a driver suffers.r.
I'm not "picking" you for any other reason than your incorrect assertions, with an appropriate link to the correct facts about HGV/PSV license holders. I see you've focussed on something other than those false claims. We also employed HGV drivers for decades in our family business.
As you've chosen to dwell on only this about car drivers for your own obvious reasons, I used the term one off, meaning..... Isolated seizure/first seizure.
FIRST UNPROVOKED EPILEPTIC
SEIZURE/ISOLATED SEIZURE
6 months off driving from the date of the
seizure. If there are clinical factors or
investigation results which suggest an
unacceptably high risk of a further seizure,
i.e. 20% or greater per annum, this will be
12 months off driving from the date of the
seizure
From reading the article properly there's little reason to think he'd had a seizure of any kind, so I have no idea why you had to go there and then state dramatically worded incorrect facts about HGV/PSV drivers. Seizures or blackouts, a driver can get a license and can hold it after suffering both, under certain conditions. I linked every one of your false claims in my post #884 above. Your current claim of knowledge of the legalities has me puzzled. I have no intention of joining you in dragging this thread off topic any further with comments about seizures and answering anything else which is an obvious to all, diversion from your false assertions.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but here in Glasgow, we are a working class city. We have a strong work ethic. We don't like to be off work, if we can work we do. It's just our nature.
that wasnt work ethic or anything to do with it, it was half witted , dangerous and cruel what he did and he should be in prison.
Nothing to do with seizures, nor epilepsy, but for what it's worth with regard to Medical Examinations, I personally know an ex- London black cab driver whose story is such;
Being almost 70, and plus having suffered a mild heart attack at 51, he had to undergo an annual GP medical, and a tri-annual treadmill stress test.
At his last treadmill test, when he was around 69, the cardiologist told him that although he had completed the mandatory 9 minute test successfully, the test revealed that one heart artery had narrowed, and he would need an operation to insert a couple of stents to "hold open" the artery.
He was told that if this wasn't done TFL would not renew his taxi licence, but he'd be okay with his DVLA licence to drive cars.
He agreed to the operation, but subsequently was informed by the NHS that they had a duty to inform him that at his age, the operation COULD cause a blood clot which MAY lead to a stroke, extremely unlikely, but they had to inform him.
It took him about .5 of a second to say no thanks, I'll hang up my green badge and send my licences back to TFL, (black cab drivers are issued with one licence, plus a copy.)
I see him occasionally doing his exercise walk around the park, he says that after the initial 2 or 3 weeks wondering what to do with himself he doesn't miss it one bit, and with all the aggravation of Uber, he's glad he's out of it now.
We also employed HGV drivers for decades in our family business. Seizures or blackouts, a driver can get a license and can hold it after suffering both, under certain conditions.<snip>
Lot's of companies employ HGV drivers so i've no idea what that relates to at all.
Someone with a history wouldn't even get within sniffing distance of DVLA's MB as far as an HGV/PSV licence is concerned. The 'certain conditions' DVLA MB lay down regarding PSV/HGV licences amount to zero anticonvulsant medication and the potential risks of coming off anticonvulsant medication permanently are like playing Russian roulette.
Nothing to do with seizures, nor epilepsy, but for what it's worth with regard to Medical Examinations, I personally know an ex- London black cab driver whose story is such; Being almost 70, and plus having suffered a mild heart attack at 51, he had to undergo an annual GP medical, and a tri-annual treadmill stress test.
Believe it or not with Angina, not only can a person continue to drive, they don't even need to inform the DVLA (unless HGV/PSV) unlike those with epilepsy. However at 70 years of age the licence is restricted and has to be renewed every three years which applies to everyone.
Some years ago when Woolworth was still trading, a car careered straight through the front of the store in my local town killing two people in the store. The driver had suffered a fatal heart attack.
My next door neighbour who had no history of heart problems, drove down to Morrisons supermarket 7 miles away, parked up, and promptly suffered a fatal heart attack. The alarm was only raised when people in the car next to hers who had seen her 'asleep' (as they thought) in the car, returned to find she was still 'asleep' so called 999 when they got no response from knocking on her window.
Only two days before i'd been round her house helping her to set up an internet connection for her so it came as quite a shock to me.
Bit harsh I feel, considering the full facts aren't out yet.
Imagine yourself for one moment as one of the families of someone killed that day and then think about it.... lives were lost that should never have happened if this man would have been honest and went to a doctor, Anyone who knew about this and said nothing is just as bad.. He snuffed out all these lives and took on another job driving , when he could have turned to something else, He deserves no sympathy at all.. and its said he also passed out too in the canteen...When the first reported incident of him passing out happened on a 54 bus in Glasgow.. an ambulance was sent for , but he refused to go to hospital..
You could be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA about a condition that might affect your ability to drive safely. You could also be prosecuted if you have an accident.
Someone with a history wouldn't even get within sniffing distance of DVLA's MB as far as an HGV/PSV licence is concerned. The 'certain conditions' DVLA MB lay down. snip
..
Your opinion again. It's certainly not actual fact. I'm fully aware of the "certain conditions" and what they mean.
walk in the shoes of the families left forever grieving.. not only that but they were told nothing at all, until we the publc knew.. shameful..
Sorry but thats nothing to do with what I posted. I was querying why people in this thread wee talking abour seizures when theres no indication thats what happened.
Comments
< rolls eyes >
Feeling unwell can come and go, you could feel unwell and then half an hour later feel perfectly fine.
Passing out is mentioned in the BBC article, but the reason for asking this is unclear.
I sounds like something pretty minor to me, but who knows.
Incorrect.
Edited, just noticed anne_666 has provided the link.
The important words to note are 'at least' and 'without use of anti-epileptic medication'.
DVLA's Medical Assessment Board is notoriously stringent for obvious reasons. The 10 year rule doesn't apply to car licence holders (its 12 months) and they can also drive on medication. An HGV/PSV driver cannot.
.
I'm fully aware of what the important words mean.
He was told by the company Doctor he didn't need to report this to the DVLA. 12 months for car drivers only applies to a one off seizure.
Your assertions were incorrect.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/435071/aagv1.pdf
Page 14 onwards.
You're welcome.
No it does not.
It's applicable to each seizure a driver suffers and if the condition worsens, the DVLA MB may refuse an applicant altogether. Even an applicants GP can be overruled by the DVLA MB. There possibly isn't any mention of that in that pdf file but believe me they can do, and have. Their word is final.
At one time the period of car driving licence revocation used to be 3 years, then it got reduced to 2 years and finally down to one year.
They will be just as relevant as the rules on epilepsy and seizures
Glasgow bin lorry crash driver 'blacked out before' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33636146
Prior to that on the same day the driver had reported 'passing out' in the factory canteen, but the Inspector didn't know about that.
The Bus companies doctor wrote a letter stating Mr Clarke had suffered "loss of consciousness" and was advised that he didn't need to inform the DVLA.
I'm not "picking" you for any other reason than your incorrect assertions, with an appropriate link to the correct facts about HGV/PSV license holders. I see you've focussed on something other than those false claims. We also employed HGV drivers for decades in our family business.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/435071/aagv1.pdf
As you've chosen to dwell on only this about car drivers for your own obvious reasons, I used the term one off, meaning..... Isolated seizure/first seizure.
From reading the article properly there's little reason to think he'd had a seizure of any kind, so I have no idea why you had to go there and then state dramatically worded incorrect facts about HGV/PSV drivers. Seizures or blackouts, a driver can get a license and can hold it after suffering both, under certain conditions. I linked every one of your false claims in my post #884 above. Your current claim of knowledge of the legalities has me puzzled. I have no intention of joining you in dragging this thread off topic any further with comments about seizures and answering anything else which is an obvious to all, diversion from your false assertions.
I've fainted from hunger and low blood sugar before. Why are people talking about seizures when there's nothing said to suggest this,was the case.
Bit harsh I feel, considering the full facts aren't out yet.
Being almost 70, and plus having suffered a mild heart attack at 51, he had to undergo an annual GP medical, and a tri-annual treadmill stress test.
At his last treadmill test, when he was around 69, the cardiologist told him that although he had completed the mandatory 9 minute test successfully, the test revealed that one heart artery had narrowed, and he would need an operation to insert a couple of stents to "hold open" the artery.
He was told that if this wasn't done TFL would not renew his taxi licence, but he'd be okay with his DVLA licence to drive cars.
He agreed to the operation, but subsequently was informed by the NHS that they had a duty to inform him that at his age, the operation COULD cause a blood clot which MAY lead to a stroke, extremely unlikely, but they had to inform him.
It took him about .5 of a second to say no thanks, I'll hang up my green badge and send my licences back to TFL, (black cab drivers are issued with one licence, plus a copy.)
I see him occasionally doing his exercise walk around the park, he says that after the initial 2 or 3 weeks wondering what to do with himself he doesn't miss it one bit, and with all the aggravation of Uber, he's glad he's out of it now.
Someone with a history wouldn't even get within sniffing distance of DVLA's MB as far as an HGV/PSV licence is concerned. The 'certain conditions' DVLA MB lay down regarding PSV/HGV licences amount to zero anticonvulsant medication and the potential risks of coming off anticonvulsant medication permanently are like playing Russian roulette.
Conjecture as none of us have any more to go on other than mention of 'blackouts' and 'Mr Clarke had suffered "loss of consciousness".'
Believe it or not with Angina, not only can a person continue to drive, they don't even need to inform the DVLA (unless HGV/PSV) unlike those with epilepsy. However at 70 years of age the licence is restricted and has to be renewed every three years which applies to everyone.
Some years ago when Woolworth was still trading, a car careered straight through the front of the store in my local town killing two people in the store. The driver had suffered a fatal heart attack.
My next door neighbour who had no history of heart problems, drove down to Morrisons supermarket 7 miles away, parked up, and promptly suffered a fatal heart attack. The alarm was only raised when people in the car next to hers who had seen her 'asleep' (as they thought) in the car, returned to find she was still 'asleep' so called 999 when they got no response from knocking on her window.
Only two days before i'd been round her house helping her to set up an internet connection for her so it came as quite a shock to me.
You could be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA about a condition that might affect your ability to drive safely. You could also be prosecuted if you have an accident.
Your opinion again. It's certainly not actual fact. I'm fully aware of the "certain conditions" and what they mean.
Sorry but thats nothing to do with what I posted. I was querying why people in this thread wee talking abour seizures when theres no indication thats what happened.