We've got a little Shihtzu, she's super spoilt and we totally adore her...
However we got her under 'dubious' circumstances...
Our neighour had a shihtzu after a little foot stamping and persuasion my OH gave in and let me have one,
I got the number of her 'breeder' from our neighbour she had another set of pups due and called us when they were born, she allowed us to visit when the pups were 2 weeks old and we chose our pooch...
3 weeks later I had a call to say our dog was ready and the breeder was waiting outside our house....she said the litter had 'issues' and it was best that we take our dog now
We knew it was wrong as the dog was 5 weeks to the day, we did question her, however we wanted the dog and accepted what the breeder said.
Our dog was checked by our village vet the following day (she did need antibiotics as her left lung wasnt clear) Thankfully we havent had any other problems and our pooch is now 3
We've since found out the breeder 'fosters' dogs out ie people have the dog without paying any money on the condition that the breeder has 3 sets of litters from her, after the third set the breeders allows the 'foster carer' to have all paper work regarding the dog and legally become owner.
I'd never heard of this before, it doesnt sit comfortably with me.
Get your deposit back you should be entitled to it as your puppy died, even if you are refused your deposit back still walk away it could be a small price to pay.
I would think about the small claims court if they refused to give me my deposit back.
Thankfully my two Oriental Blacks came from a proper home - their breeder is now a friend and her cats & kittens are spoilt rotten. So am I when I visit.
I would think about the small claims court if they refused to give me my deposit back.
Thankfully my two Oriental Blacks came from a proper home - their breeder is now a friend and her cats & kittens are spoilt rotten. So am I when I visit.
Get your deposit back you should be entitled to it as your puppy died, even if you are refused your deposit back still walk away it could be a small price to pay.
Sorry
What I ment was still dont buy just because of the deposit paid
what you have with your breeder is how it should be
Would just like to add that IMO even accredited breeder means nothing. There is a local accredited breeder near me who breeds from a bitch that has way above average hip scores.
Would just like to add that IMO even accredited breeder means nothing. There is a local accredited breeder near me who breeds from a bitch that has way above average hip scores.
That is true to be accredited all you do is pay the KC for the privlige :rolleyes: it only recommends Health Tests..it is always best to go to a breeder who follows the Breed guidlines for Health within that breed and actualy only breed from tested animals that fall within the breed average.
You could try www.champdogs.co.uk. We used that as a starting point but did some background checking as well. Lots of the breeders on there only breed one litter a year. Our puppy is 7 now and we still keep in touch with his breeder. Hope you find a puppy you like.
I called around the breeders on the KC website (it's Northern Ireland so there wasn't a great deal - 5). All of the breeders had heard of this guy who had been to see. Unfortunately none of them had any pups and had a waiting list, however the third lady I spoke to knew of a friend of her daughters who did have a litter currently for sale. I was a bit sceptical having read what was here so I decided to phone the last 2 on my list and ask them if they had any pups, when they didn't I asked if they knew her. Both said they did (geographically they are reasonably far from her) and that she was reputable. I also decided to phone back the first 2 I had called and asked them about her, again they both said she was known for being one of the best and most reliable breeders around. So I decided to go and see the pups. They were adorable and we're picking one up next weekend. He's male, pure black, 8 weeks old. I'm supremely confident that they are of good stock. Everything about her, the place, the dogs etc. etc. was right and a million times better than the previous litter I had been to see (which, by the way, I actually thought looked great at the time - obviously his game plan).
As far as the original breeder is concerned, he still thinks I'm going to see another of his pups tomorrow. I'm going to tell him that my wife and I have had a chat and decided that maybe we've rushed into things (we haven't, we've been talking about a dog for about 2 years but with one thing and another never really got round to it). Then I'm going to ask for my £100 deposit back. I'll nip back tomorrow and post how I get on.
Thanks for all the advice, hopefully someone stumbles across this thread in years to come and gets the heads up they need.
Can you get places like that who sell kittens? After reading this thread it has made me wonder about the place I got my cat Woody from. When I went to get Woody she had 3 different litters of kittens in pens in her house.
Woody had diarrhoea when I got him home, she claimed he had an upset stomach from being wormed but he turned out to have e-coli. I was very naive because I thought if he was GCCF registered it must all be above board and regularly inspected. I decided after the e-coli that I wouldn't use her again, but stopped short of reporting her because I thought it was just bad luck that I got a sick kitten (thankfully he has grown into a strong healthy adult cat).
It's heartbreaking to think of all the poor innocent dogs and cats that are used by these people, and the puppies and kittens too.
Good luck with your new puppie big_hard_lad and thanks for starting this thread, I hope as you say, others come across this thread and get a heads up.
I called around the breeders on the KC website (it's Northern Ireland so there wasn't a great deal - 5). All of the breeders had heard of this guy who had been to see. Unfortunately none of them had any pups and had a waiting list, however the third lady I spoke to knew of a friend of her daughters who did have a litter currently for sale. I was a bit sceptical having read what was here so I decided to phone the last 2 on my list and ask them if they had any pups, when they didn't I asked if they knew her. Both said they did (geographically they are reasonably far from her) and that she was reputable. I also decided to phone back the first 2 I had called and asked them about her, again they both said she was known for being one of the best and most reliable breeders around. So I decided to go and see the pups. They were adorable and we're picking one up next weekend. He's male, pure black, 8 weeks old. I'm supremely confident that they are of good stock. Everything about her, the place, the dogs etc. etc. was right and a million times better than the previous litter I had been to see (which, by the way, I actually thought looked great at the time - obviously his game plan).
As far as the original breeder is concerned, he still thinks I'm going to see another of his pups tomorrow. I'm going to tell him that my wife and I have had a chat and decided that maybe we've rushed into things (we haven't, we've been talking about a dog for about 2 years but with one thing and another never really got round to it). Then I'm going to ask for my £100 deposit back. I'll nip back tomorrow and post how I get on.
Thanks for all the advice, hopefully someone stumbles across this thread in years to come and gets the heads up they need.
I'm not sure say that. I would say that as the one you wanted had died, you want a refund. An unscrupulous breeder might not refund if you say you're cancelling simply because you've changed your mind. Even some reputable breeders dont refund on this reason. Put the ball in his court, he cant provide the dog you wanted and paid a deposit for therefor he should refund. If he doesn't tell him you'll be contacting trading standards. Ours worked with the SSPCA to close down a farm not far from here.
I do wish you luck with your new puppy. I'm sure he'll bring years of joy.
So I went and saw the original "breeder" this morning. He said I should have telephoned ahead and he would have had my £100 deposit ready but that he had put it into the bank. I offered to take him to a bank machine to get it, but he said he doesn't have a bank card!! He then said he would give me a cheque but he didn't have any cheques left in his book and he was waiting for a new one to arrive through the post. He did actually produce a cheque book with no cheques in at this stage. So...we left it as he would send me a cheque during the week for my deposit. Obviously, I'm not convinced he will. If I don't receive anything by the start of next week then I will call him and see the story. If he's still being awkward I'll go to Trading Standards.
To be honest, if I don't get my £100 back it's a small price to pay knowing that I've had a lucky escape and that the dog I have is properly reared etc. I will pursue it though.
So I went and saw the original "breeder" this morning. He said I should have telephoned ahead and he would have had my £100 deposit ready but that he had put it into the bank. I offered to take him to a bank machine to get it, but he said he doesn't have a bank card!! He then said he would give me a cheque but he didn't have any cheques left in his book and he was waiting for a new one to arrive through the post. He did actually produce a cheque book with no cheques in at this stage. So...we left it as he would send me a cheque during the week for my deposit. Obviously, I'm not convinced he will. If I don't receive anything by the start of next week then I will call him and see the story. If he's still being awkward I'll go to Trading Standards.
To be honest, if I don't get my £100 back it's a small price to pay knowing that I've had a lucky escape and that the dog I have is properly reared etc. I will pursue it though.
That sort of confirms what we thought. Kudos to you for putting in all the research and doing things well though. Hopefully, will save you heartache/vets' bills down the line. The pup you've reserved sounds great! So pleased you turned this round so well and again, thanks for posting here as you highlighted something that will help countless other folk.
I'd just like to add that most dogs sold in pet shops are also from puppy farms so avoid them too.
One of my dogs is an ex puppy farm breeding dog that was in a terrible state when she was rescued.
She had spent the first four years of her life in horrible conditions and had had many litters.
Amongst many other medical complaints she had no fur and was less than half the weight of a normal dog of her breed.
If she hadn't been rescued she most certainly would not have survived.
The puppy farm owners are only interested in making as much money as they can. They don't care that the dogs in their "care" could be starving or in desperate need of a vets attention.
As long as they think the bitches will produce litters successfully they'll keep them in dreadful living conditions. When they don't produce twice yearly the "lucky" ones are collected by animal rescues that sometimes travel hundreds of miles to collect them. Rescue centre workers and their fosterers then do all they can to bring these poor animal a quality of life that they've never known in their short lives.
It took over three months of medical attention, decent food and alot of TLC for my dog to even be considered for re homing.
I'm pleased to say that after two years she is as healthy as can be although she's still very timid.
A few hours after I got home from seeing the original "breeder" I got this txt message. We had a bit of a back and forth so I'll just post it below... (I've removed names and improved his spelling and grammar!)
HIM: Hi XXX, Don't know what I was thinking I've been receiving calls since you and XXX agreed to take the other pup so I told them there was none left. So you could of told me on the phone you weren't taking the pup. I'm going to have to readvertise this pup so I won't be giving you back your deposit. If you had of told me at the time, sorry, XXX
ME: I think that's dreadfully unfair, I paid a deposit on the pup that died, therefore I expect my deposit back. I agreed on the other pup on the condition of seeing it (I paid no attention to it the other night). Had I still been interested today I would have agreed to transfer the deposit to the other dog. I will be pursuing this further and seeking advice. You have no right to the deposit on the dog that died.
HIM: If you had told me you weren't gonna be taking the other pup I could have had him sold over the weekend, you changed your mind and that's why you pay a deposit, you changed your mind so you lose the deposit ok, XXX
ME: I never paid a deposit on the remaining pup, I paid a deposit on the dog that died. Your advert is still up and hasn't been taken down so you don't need to readvertise and you could always call back the people that called you.
Obviously I'm absolutely fuming! What do you think I should do? Trading standards? When I received the call from him about the puppy dying I said I would take a look at the other dog and see if I wanted him instead. I never agreed to it, just that it may be an option. By the time I went to see the other dog I'd obviously decided it wasn't for me and I told him so.
You have nothing to loose by making enquies to trading standards, I should think you have a good case unless it was stated in advert deposit is none refundable even then the deposit was for a puppy that died so that should make it refundable. Take a copy of the advert before they change it.
You have nothing to loose by making enquies to trading standards, I should think you have a good case unless it was stated in advert deposit is none refundable even then the deposit was for a puppy that died so that should make it refundable. Take a copy of the advert before they change it.
I have taken a copy of the ad. It was never stated anywhere, either on the ad or by him at the time of giving it, that the deposit was non-refundable. Even if it was, surely the "non-refundable" relates to the customer, i.e. if I change my mind then tough. But if the seller cannot provide the product they have advertised, then surely the deposit then should be returned to the customer?
You're saying I have no right to the money that I gave him as a deposit for a dog that died?
big_hard_lad, you paid a deposit for something that no longer exists so yes, you should certainly get your money back. I have kept my breed for 30 years and wouldn't dream of keeping the deposit in these circumstances. Even if I had another pup(s) available for the buyer, I would understand completely if they chose not to have one and would return any money immediately. The person you are dealing with is in this for one reason - money. If you give him a hard time re: getting your deposit back and if Trading Standards get involved (I hope they do) then he might realise that churning puppies out for profit isn't as lucrative as he thought and he might even think twice before doing it again. People like him make me sick. I have spent years, thousands of pounds and hours of my time learning as much as I can about my breed, travelled more miles than I can remember going to shows to assess stud dogs, blood lines etc, always have my dogs health tested and provide lifelong advice, support and guidance to anyone who is lucky enough to persuade me that they are good enough to own one of my pups yet idiots like this bloke just mate a bitch to anything with a pulse and then expect people to pay top money for a pup with no guarantees! Sorry to rant but it makes my blood boil :mad:
big_hard_lad, you paid a deposit for something that no longer exists so yes, you should certainly get your money back. I have kept my breed for 30 years and wouldn't dream of keeping the deposit in these circumstances. Even if I had another pup(s) available for the buyer, I would understand completely if they chose not to have one and would return any money immediately. The person you are dealing with is in this for one reason - money. If you give him a hard time re: getting your deposit back and if Trading Standards get involved (I hope they do) then he might realise that churning puppies out for profit isn't as lucrative as he thought and he might even think twice before doing it again. People like him make me sick. I have spent years, thousands of pounds and hours of my time learning as much as I can about my breed, travelled more miles than I can remember going to shows to assess stud dogs, blood lines etc, always have my dogs health tested and provide lifelong advice, support and guidance to anyone who is lucky enough to persuade me that they are good enough to own one of my pups yet idiots like this bloke just mate a bitch to anything with a pulse and then expect people to pay top money for a pup with no guarantees! Sorry to rant but it makes my blood boil :mad:
He's an utter scumbag of the highest order. Rant all you like, if I was in your situation my blood would be boiling too. I'm going to give Trading Standards a call shortly and see what they say, I'll keep this thread updated until the bitter end as I think it's turned into a good resource for somebody going into this as clueless as I originally was.
Thanks again guys, you all have been brilliant with your advice/comments/etc.
You're saying I have no right to the money that I gave him as a deposit for a dog that died?
Not at all, I do think you are entitled to your money back, and a reputable breeder would return it. But this is not a reputable breeder, it is an unscrupulous puppy farmer, and he won't.
What did the paperwork say btw? Did the receipt specify you had given £100 for the particular pup which died? If so, you could try taking it to the Small Claims Court (although from what I have read on other threads on here, you probably still wouldn't get your money back...:( )
I have taken a copy of the ad. It was never stated anywhere, either on the ad or by him at the time of giving it, that the deposit was non-refundable. Even if it was, surely the "non-refundable" relates to the customer, i.e. if I change my mind then tough. But if the seller cannot provide the product they have advertised, then surely the deposit then should be returned to the customer?
thats if he tells it the same way as you, unfortunatly he could spin any tale he wants if it was all verbal, but as stated it is worth a go at TS you have nothing to loose.
Not at all, I do think you are entitled to your money back, and a reputable breeder would return it. But this is not a reputable breeder, it is an unscrupulous puppy farmer, and he won't.
What did the paperwork say btw? Did the receipt specify you had given £100 for the particular pup which died? If so, you could try taking it to the Small Claims Court (although from what I have read on other threads on here, you probably still wouldn't get your money back...:( )
Of course, me being the idiot that I am, I didn't get a receipt. I do, however, have a series of text messages stating clearly that £100 deposit was paid by myself.
I have spoken to Trading Standards and they say the best way to go about it is to outline my case in writing to him, state that I want my money returned to me within 7 days or I shall be taking him to the small claims court for the deposit + expenses. I'm currently drafting a letter!
I hope the letter gets a result. Shame there is no written receipt. AFAIK the small claims court does not accept texts as evidence (emails, yes). I also suspect his guy has done this before - hence no receipt - he knows how to avoid paying .:mad:
Good luck, I hope it works out, but with the best will in the world I fear if you've seen the last of that money. I hope I'm wrong - keep us updated (and also re your new puppy of course!)
Comments
However we got her under 'dubious' circumstances...
Our neighour had a shihtzu after a little foot stamping and persuasion
I got the number of her 'breeder' from our neighbour she had another set of pups due and called us when they were born, she allowed us to visit when the pups were 2 weeks old and we chose our pooch...
3 weeks later I had a call to say our dog was ready and the breeder was waiting outside our house
We knew it was wrong as the dog was 5 weeks to the day, we did question her, however we wanted the dog and accepted what the breeder said.
Our dog was checked by our village vet the following day (she did need antibiotics as her left lung wasnt clear) Thankfully we havent had any other problems and our pooch is now 3
We've since found out the breeder 'fosters' dogs out ie people have the dog without paying any money on the condition that the breeder has 3 sets of litters from her, after the third set the breeders allows the 'foster carer' to have all paper work regarding the dog and legally become owner.
I'd never heard of this before, it doesnt sit comfortably with me.
I would think about the small claims court if they refused to give me my deposit back.
Thankfully my two Oriental Blacks came from a proper home - their breeder is now a friend and her cats & kittens are spoilt rotten. So am I when I visit.
Sorry
What I ment was still dont buy just because of the deposit paid
what you have with your breeder is how it should be
That is true to be accredited all you do is pay the KC for the privlige :rolleyes: it only recommends Health Tests..it is always best to go to a breeder who follows the Breed guidlines for Health within that breed and actualy only breed from tested animals that fall within the breed average.
Bit of an update.
I called around the breeders on the KC website (it's Northern Ireland so there wasn't a great deal - 5). All of the breeders had heard of this guy who had been to see. Unfortunately none of them had any pups and had a waiting list, however the third lady I spoke to knew of a friend of her daughters who did have a litter currently for sale. I was a bit sceptical having read what was here so I decided to phone the last 2 on my list and ask them if they had any pups, when they didn't I asked if they knew her. Both said they did (geographically they are reasonably far from her) and that she was reputable. I also decided to phone back the first 2 I had called and asked them about her, again they both said she was known for being one of the best and most reliable breeders around. So I decided to go and see the pups. They were adorable and we're picking one up next weekend. He's male, pure black, 8 weeks old. I'm supremely confident that they are of good stock. Everything about her, the place, the dogs etc. etc. was right and a million times better than the previous litter I had been to see (which, by the way, I actually thought looked great at the time - obviously his game plan).
As far as the original breeder is concerned, he still thinks I'm going to see another of his pups tomorrow. I'm going to tell him that my wife and I have had a chat and decided that maybe we've rushed into things (we haven't, we've been talking about a dog for about 2 years but with one thing and another never really got round to it). Then I'm going to ask for my £100 deposit back. I'll nip back tomorrow and post how I get on.
Thanks for all the advice, hopefully someone stumbles across this thread in years to come and gets the heads up they need.
Woody had diarrhoea when I got him home, she claimed he had an upset stomach from being wormed but he turned out to have e-coli. I was very naive because I thought if he was GCCF registered it must all be above board and regularly inspected. I decided after the e-coli that I wouldn't use her again, but stopped short of reporting her because I thought it was just bad luck that I got a sick kitten (thankfully he has grown into a strong healthy adult cat).
It's heartbreaking to think of all the poor innocent dogs and cats that are used by these people, and the puppies and kittens too.
Good luck with your new puppie big_hard_lad and thanks for starting this thread, I hope as you say, others come across this thread and get a heads up.
I'm not sure say that. I would say that as the one you wanted had died, you want a refund. An unscrupulous breeder might not refund if you say you're cancelling simply because you've changed your mind. Even some reputable breeders dont refund on this reason. Put the ball in his court, he cant provide the dog you wanted and paid a deposit for therefor he should refund. If he doesn't tell him you'll be contacting trading standards. Ours worked with the SSPCA to close down a farm not far from here.
I do wish you luck with your new puppy. I'm sure he'll bring years of joy.
To be honest, if I don't get my £100 back it's a small price to pay knowing that I've had a lucky escape and that the dog I have is properly reared etc. I will pursue it though.
I really doubt you will get your money back.
Sadly yes.
Three litters at a time does ring alarm bells. The breeders I have visited have had either one, or at most two, litters at a time.
That sort of confirms what we thought. Kudos to you for putting in all the research and doing things well though. Hopefully, will save you heartache/vets' bills down the line. The pup you've reserved sounds great! So pleased you turned this round so well and again, thanks for posting here as you highlighted something that will help countless other folk.
One of my dogs is an ex puppy farm breeding dog that was in a terrible state when she was rescued.
She had spent the first four years of her life in horrible conditions and had had many litters.
Amongst many other medical complaints she had no fur and was less than half the weight of a normal dog of her breed.
If she hadn't been rescued she most certainly would not have survived.
The puppy farm owners are only interested in making as much money as they can. They don't care that the dogs in their "care" could be starving or in desperate need of a vets attention.
As long as they think the bitches will produce litters successfully they'll keep them in dreadful living conditions. When they don't produce twice yearly the "lucky" ones are collected by animal rescues that sometimes travel hundreds of miles to collect them. Rescue centre workers and their fosterers then do all they can to bring these poor animal a quality of life that they've never known in their short lives.
It took over three months of medical attention, decent food and alot of TLC for my dog to even be considered for re homing.
I'm pleased to say that after two years she is as healthy as can be although she's still very timid.
A few hours after I got home from seeing the original "breeder" I got this txt message. We had a bit of a back and forth so I'll just post it below... (I've removed names and improved his spelling and grammar!)
HIM: Hi XXX, Don't know what I was thinking I've been receiving calls since you and XXX agreed to take the other pup so I told them there was none left. So you could of told me on the phone you weren't taking the pup. I'm going to have to readvertise this pup so I won't be giving you back your deposit. If you had of told me at the time, sorry, XXX
ME: I think that's dreadfully unfair, I paid a deposit on the pup that died, therefore I expect my deposit back. I agreed on the other pup on the condition of seeing it (I paid no attention to it the other night). Had I still been interested today I would have agreed to transfer the deposit to the other dog. I will be pursuing this further and seeking advice. You have no right to the deposit on the dog that died.
HIM: If you had told me you weren't gonna be taking the other pup I could have had him sold over the weekend, you changed your mind and that's why you pay a deposit, you changed your mind so you lose the deposit ok, XXX
ME: I never paid a deposit on the remaining pup, I paid a deposit on the dog that died. Your advert is still up and hasn't been taken down so you don't need to readvertise and you could always call back the people that called you.
Obviously I'm absolutely fuming! What do you think I should do? Trading standards? When I received the call from him about the puppy dying I said I would take a look at the other dog and see if I wanted him instead. I never agreed to it, just that it may be an option. By the time I went to see the other dog I'd obviously decided it wasn't for me and I told him so.
You're saying I have no right to the money that I gave him as a deposit for a dog that died?
I have taken a copy of the ad. It was never stated anywhere, either on the ad or by him at the time of giving it, that the deposit was non-refundable. Even if it was, surely the "non-refundable" relates to the customer, i.e. if I change my mind then tough. But if the seller cannot provide the product they have advertised, then surely the deposit then should be returned to the customer?
big_hard_lad, you paid a deposit for something that no longer exists so yes, you should certainly get your money back. I have kept my breed for 30 years and wouldn't dream of keeping the deposit in these circumstances. Even if I had another pup(s) available for the buyer, I would understand completely if they chose not to have one and would return any money immediately. The person you are dealing with is in this for one reason - money. If you give him a hard time re: getting your deposit back and if Trading Standards get involved (I hope they do) then he might realise that churning puppies out for profit isn't as lucrative as he thought and he might even think twice before doing it again. People like him make me sick. I have spent years, thousands of pounds and hours of my time learning as much as I can about my breed, travelled more miles than I can remember going to shows to assess stud dogs, blood lines etc, always have my dogs health tested and provide lifelong advice, support and guidance to anyone who is lucky enough to persuade me that they are good enough to own one of my pups yet idiots like this bloke just mate a bitch to anything with a pulse and then expect people to pay top money for a pup with no guarantees! Sorry to rant but it makes my blood boil :mad:
He's an utter scumbag of the highest order. Rant all you like, if I was in your situation my blood would be boiling too. I'm going to give Trading Standards a call shortly and see what they say, I'll keep this thread updated until the bitter end as I think it's turned into a good resource for somebody going into this as clueless as I originally was.
Thanks again guys, you all have been brilliant with your advice/comments/etc.
Not at all, I do think you are entitled to your money back, and a reputable breeder would return it. But this is not a reputable breeder, it is an unscrupulous puppy farmer, and he won't.
What did the paperwork say btw? Did the receipt specify you had given £100 for the particular pup which died? If so, you could try taking it to the Small Claims Court (although from what I have read on other threads on here, you probably still wouldn't get your money back...:( )
thats if he tells it the same way as you, unfortunatly he could spin any tale he wants if it was all verbal, but as stated it is worth a go at TS you have nothing to loose.
Of course, me being the idiot that I am, I didn't get a receipt. I do, however, have a series of text messages stating clearly that £100 deposit was paid by myself.
I have spoken to Trading Standards and they say the best way to go about it is to outline my case in writing to him, state that I want my money returned to me within 7 days or I shall be taking him to the small claims court for the deposit + expenses. I'm currently drafting a letter!
Good luck, I hope it works out, but with the best will in the world I fear if you've seen the last of that money. I hope I'm wrong - keep us updated (and also re your new puppy of course!)