Which is exactly why so many people were warning against US intervention in Iraq. The Bush (and Blair) adinistration was blinded by ideology and hopelessly ignorant of the realities of military intervention in the region and its long-term aftermath.
Oh, you're going back into history. I was clear in my post that I was referring to the age of mass communication via the internet. This has changed everything and will influence the outcome of invasions and occupations just as much as the printing press influenced the Protestant Reformation. Probably more so.
Not really, Britain let India go in an age before the internet and Britain also intervened in the middle-east which brought the end of slavery throughout the world.
It's going to be a lot harder for any occupying force to impose its will on an unwilling population without extreme brutality and communications blackout.
I doubt it, there is not a higher incidence of uprisings compared to the past before the internet.
And the most successful happened without it like the american revolution.
The West indeed has been busy condemning immoral acts, but then the West has this luxury sitting in complete safety.
If a Western country ever was seriously attacked or threatened, all of society would join in the utter obliteration of the enemy country.
How long are we going to sit back and watch ISIS take over Syria and Iraq then maybe go into other countries . They have taken over another army base and a whole city is being displaced again ruining peoples lives. Surely we need action.
How long are we going to sit back and watch ISIS take over Syria and Iraq then maybe go into other countries . They have taken over another army base and a whole city is being displaced again ruining peoples lives. Surely we need action.
I think our appetite for intervention has waned over the last few years. Im not sure we sould commit ground forces to another war which might last another ten years.
I think our appetite for intervention has waned over the last few years. Im not sure we sould commit ground forces to another war which might last another ten years.
It all depends on where you want to fight them over there , when the get to Turkey , Italy ,Kent ! , personally if somewhere has to be destroyed by war I would rather it be the Middle East than Europe
It all depends on where you want to fight them over there , when the get to Turkey , Italy ,Kent ! , personally if somewhere has to be destroyed by war I would rather it be the Middle East than Europe
Logistically, I very much doubt they can get too far and certainly can't see them making inroads into the EU.
A couple of tactical nuclear weapons would,sort them out:o
Logistically, I very much doubt they can get too far and certainly can't see them making inroads into the EU.
A couple of tactical nuclear weapons would,sort them out:o
They are gaining more and more ground and new recruits are joining them every day including people from this country don't underestimate the power behind an idea because thats what we are fighting not people
How long are we going to sit back and watch ISIS take over Syria and Iraq then maybe go into other countries . They have taken over another army base and a whole city is being displaced again ruining peoples lives. Surely we need action.
There's not public appetite for intervention. Unfortunately, a major terror event on our shores maybe what happens to change that opinion.
They are gaining more and more ground and new recruits are joining them every day including people from this country don't underestimate the power behind an idea because thats what we are fighting not people
Oh, I wouldn't underestimate them but as yet they aren't likely to get as far as the EU. They have no real,logistical base of heavy military equipment and there's a limit to what you can do against a non Muslim population. This isn't 1400 after all.
In your opinion, but that's not really backed up by evidence or third party justification, is it?
How do you quantify "many", and on what basis do you derive this figure?
5?
500?
50,000?
The leader of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain at the time was clear that British Muslims should not commit acts of violence. Even the President of Iran stated that "We should consider the Salman Rushdie issue as completely finished."
I'll agree that there has been extremist Islamist activity for a LONG time, but it's occurred in relatively isolated incidents.
The Iraq invasion stepped things up into overdrive. The combination of radical Islamists and former Iraqi Army experts who were sacked at once by the US created a lethal cocktail.
Just a brief look at the prison statistics indicates a problem based on immigration from Muslim countries. Approx 15% of the prison population is Muslim, 30% of those are foreign born.
There were 178 prisoners who were in prison due to terrorism related offences, 104 of those were Muslim.
Many is derived from polls amongst Muslims which indicates approx 40% which even if you halved that value it would still constitute many. If you have ten balls and take four of them you have a few, if you have ten million balls and take 4 million of them you have many balls as well as many of the total.
The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain is effectively just a few people and if I recall they supported the fatwa. I recall the interviews with Yussuf Islam and Dr Kalim Siddiqui very well and many others. There was no voice in the wilderness indicating support for Rushdie as an author. It is the intimidation and the threat that wins the day because the weasel words of peace are underscored with the out of control fanatic who is wound up by the very people indicating peace with one hand and anger with the other.
Oh, I wouldn't underestimate them but as yet they aren't likely to get as far as the EU. They have no real,logistical base of heavy military equipment and there's a limit to what you can do against a non Muslim population. This isn't 1400 after all.
They are capturing Syrian and Iraqi equipment with every advance it will only be a matter of time before they an airforce of their own
Just a brief look at the prison statistics indicates a problem based on immigration from Muslim countries. Approx 15% of the prison population is Muslim, 30% of those are foreign born.
There were 178 prisoners who were in prison due to terrorism related offences, 104 of those were Muslim.
Many is derived from polls amongst Muslims which indicates approx 40% which even if you halved that value it would still constitute many. If you have ten balls and take four of them you have a few, if you have ten million balls and take 4 million of them you have many balls as well as many of the total.
The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain is effectively just a few people and if I recall they supported the fatwa. I recall the interviews with Yussuf Islam and Dr Kalim Siddiqui very well and many others. There was no voice in the wilderness indicating support for Rushdie as an author. It is the intimidation and the threat that wins the day because the weasel words of peace are underscored with the out of control fanatic who is wound up by the very people indicating peace with one hand and anger with the other.
Theres 1.57 BILLION Muslims in the world it only takes 1%of that number to make one hell of a lot of fanatics
Oh, I wouldn't underestimate them but as yet they aren't likely to get as far as the EU. They have no real,logistical base of heavy military equipment and there's a limit to what you can do against a non Muslim population. This isn't 1400 after all.
As an invasionary force you are correct, but there is a presence in the EU already and one which has already struck. Small fry in the world of 'war' admittedly but enough to cause fear and governments to restrict our freedoms. The peoples of the EU are affected by the events of the Middle East in many ways without ISIS having to 'advance'.
Surely it should be Middle Eastern Countries who have ISIS on their doorstep who should be getting involved first?
Turkey have clearly made some sort of deal with ISIS, but that will only come back to haunt them.
Jordan has the only Arab army with much ability, or will, to fight - and its small and has obsolete equipment. Ultimately, it relies on the Israeli and US airforce to turn up in time to support it. the israelis are building up their bomb stocks for the worst - they have just asked the Americans for 20000 more..........several times what the RAF has in total , in one order..............
Egypt has a decent army - but its fully engaged dealing with its own problems in the Sinai and preparing to operate in Libya.
The Gulf states airforces have about 4 times the capability Cameron has reduced the RAF to - but their armies are very suspect.
Oh, I wouldn't underestimate them but as yet they aren't likely to get as far as the EU. They have no real,logistical base of heavy military equipment and there's a limit to what you can do against a non Muslim population. This isn't 1400 after all.
They are here. And some that are there can fly home here within 3 hours.
The terrorists have also had some success working out what techniques to kill lots of people work, and with a bit more intelligence brought to bear, working out what to do ,could do an awful lot of damage here.
The bigger threat though is that ISISi is now winning in Syria which has both missiles that can hit Europe, and chemical and biological weapons its kept despite agreeing to get rid of teh chemical agent. its alos in Iraq which has nerve agent lying around in collapsed bunkers, and Libya which had both missiles and WMD . And in the longer run, there's the possibilit yit will inherit the complete set of arms from some Arab state it takes over. But for Israeli airstrikes and Libya surrendering its nuclear programme, we would now have iSIS fighting in 3 countries with nukes lying around. And if Iran goes nuclear there may soon be 4-5 Arab states with nuclear weapons and an isis problem. Its not a great prospect.
Jordan has the only Arab army with much ability, or will, to fight
That would be the Jordan bombing the salmon in the Yemen rather than the Saudis bombinng with the same F-15's?
and its small and has obsolete equipment. Ultimately, it relies on the Israeli and US airforce to turn up in time to support it.
No, Jordan relies on US approved explodey stuff much as Israel does. Israel relies on the US to bankroll the US explodey stuff that the Arabs are relying on to bomb Yemen. At some point the Arabs will realise that they've been relying a bit too much on 3rd parties, and there may even be a slight chance that Israel realises the US isn't always it's friend when the US has been selling F-35s and all the toys to Saudi, Egypt, Turkey etc. And Saudi isn't exactly the US's friend any more.
As an invasionary force you are correct, but there is a presence in the EU already and one which has already struck. Small fry in the world of 'war' admittedly but enough to cause fear and governments to restrict our freedoms. The peoples of the EU are affected by the events of the Middle East in many ways without ISIS having to 'advance'.
I fully understand this but we were talking in the context of an ISIS type incursion into the EU states.
The bigger threat though is that ISISi is now winning in Syria which has both missiles that can hit Europe, and chemical and biological weapons its kept despite agreeing to get rid of teh chemical agent. its alos in Iraq which has nerve agent lying around in collapsed bunkers, and Libya which had both missiles and WMD . And in the longer run, there's the possibilit yit will inherit the complete set of arms from some Arab state it takes over. But for Israeli airstrikes and Libya surrendering its nuclear programme, we would now have iSIS fighting in 3 countries with nukes lying around. And if Iran goes nuclear there may soon be 4-5 Arab states with nuclear weapons and an isis problem. Its not a great prospect.
As a British Muslim born and raised in Britain, I despise ISIS with all my heart and soul. They are barbaric scum that should be wiped off the face of the Earth.
I've been raised with both Islamic and British ideals. I believe in respecting the elderly, working hard, upholding law and justice, to seek knowledge and protect those who are in danger. And as a Muslim I would love to see a united Ummuah(community) on earth. Get pass those borders that split us all up and have caused some of the greatest conflicts, if not all, on Earth. However not like this, not what ISIS are doing. The old form of expansionism and territory building is of the past. This is the modern world, where something like that can't be achieved.
And such a thing should not be achieved through the killings of innocent people, rape of young and old and the blatant disrespect for obvious rules in Islam and the Quraan. Now many of you may disagree with the Quran on many instances, but no one can deny there are not some good that lays within in its text.
Muslims were ordered by Prophet that the way in war is to not hurt the innocent. They must be protected. No innocent woman, child or elder must be harmed.
Yet ISIS who propagate to be true Muslims fail at their own ideal to which they state they represent. Because good people shouldn't be killed for no good reason. People like Alan Henning, who sought his way to help all those innocent and displaced civilians of Syria.
It depicts the brutal and disgusting nature of Isis. It's not a place of paradise, it's a pit of hell. And I wish that social media does more to stop it brainwashing countless of people into falling into its evil idealogy.
Because they don't represent the true ideals of Islam. Because I'm a Muslim. I watch British telly, pray five times a day, fast on the month of fasting, thank god for all I have everyday. I respect my elders and love my youngster. And I pursue education, alongside a range of people. Whether they wear skirts or jeans or a burka. I've been taught by mother to respect women and live to make everyone around me happy, even that stranger in the shops who needs help to get the item on the top shelf.
And I'm a Muslim and I don't belief in what Isis do. I don't act, agree or respect anything they do. And there are countless of people I know who feel the same.
Why should their filth block out what I believe in.
And they are. They are a threat to mainland Europe. To you and to me and if anything, the good for nothing EU must do at least something to prevent the more loss of innocent lives. We need to do more then simply bomb them. That hasn't been very effective. And I pray to God, that the barbarians get what they deserve and are thrown into the deepest pits of hell.
If at some point the Arab states actually wake up and realise they need boots on the ground and need to take them heads in then leaving it to the poor Iraqis, what is the most realistic alliance that we could see??
An Egypt, Israel, Jordan alliance.
I do wish for Pete sake that Turkey wakes up. They are vitally needed to end this scum,
Comments
The only one that is not the case is Turkey by Ataturk, and his agenda was explicitly to westernize and to crush Islam.
Agreed.
Aid and Israel.
No one defends those historical incidents, and they don't happen as the norm in contemporary western society.
Because ISIS has no political clout, once they do it will be Hamas all over again.
Not really, Britain let India go in an age before the internet and Britain also intervened in the middle-east which brought the end of slavery throughout the world.
I doubt it, there is not a higher incidence of uprisings compared to the past before the internet.
And the most successful happened without it like the american revolution.
The West indeed has been busy condemning immoral acts, but then the West has this luxury sitting in complete safety.
If a Western country ever was seriously attacked or threatened, all of society would join in the utter obliteration of the enemy country.
Thats just human nature.
I think our appetite for intervention has waned over the last few years. Im not sure we sould commit ground forces to another war which might last another ten years.
It all depends on where you want to fight them over there , when the get to Turkey , Italy ,Kent ! , personally if somewhere has to be destroyed by war I would rather it be the Middle East than Europe
Logistically, I very much doubt they can get too far and certainly can't see them making inroads into the EU.
A couple of tactical nuclear weapons would,sort them out:o
They are gaining more and more ground and new recruits are joining them every day including people from this country don't underestimate the power behind an idea because thats what we are fighting not people
There's not public appetite for intervention. Unfortunately, a major terror event on our shores maybe what happens to change that opinion.
*Graphic content*
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/579030/Palmyra-bloodbath-begins-ISIS-fighters-public-beheadings
Surely it should be Middle Eastern Countries who have ISIS on their doorstep who should be getting involved first?
Turkey have clearly made some sort of deal with ISIS, but that will only come back to haunt them.
Oh, I wouldn't underestimate them but as yet they aren't likely to get as far as the EU. They have no real,logistical base of heavy military equipment and there's a limit to what you can do against a non Muslim population. This isn't 1400 after all.
Just a brief look at the prison statistics indicates a problem based on immigration from Muslim countries. Approx 15% of the prison population is Muslim, 30% of those are foreign born.
There were 178 prisoners who were in prison due to terrorism related offences, 104 of those were Muslim.
Many is derived from polls amongst Muslims which indicates approx 40% which even if you halved that value it would still constitute many. If you have ten balls and take four of them you have a few, if you have ten million balls and take 4 million of them you have many balls as well as many of the total.
The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain is effectively just a few people and if I recall they supported the fatwa. I recall the interviews with Yussuf Islam and Dr Kalim Siddiqui very well and many others. There was no voice in the wilderness indicating support for Rushdie as an author. It is the intimidation and the threat that wins the day because the weasel words of peace are underscored with the out of control fanatic who is wound up by the very people indicating peace with one hand and anger with the other.
They are capturing Syrian and Iraqi equipment with every advance it will only be a matter of time before they an airforce of their own
Theres 1.57 BILLION Muslims in the world it only takes 1%of that number to make one hell of a lot of fanatics
That not necessarily a situation that may have good outcome.
As an invasionary force you are correct, but there is a presence in the EU already and one which has already struck. Small fry in the world of 'war' admittedly but enough to cause fear and governments to restrict our freedoms. The peoples of the EU are affected by the events of the Middle East in many ways without ISIS having to 'advance'.
Jordan has the only Arab army with much ability, or will, to fight - and its small and has obsolete equipment. Ultimately, it relies on the Israeli and US airforce to turn up in time to support it. the israelis are building up their bomb stocks for the worst - they have just asked the Americans for 20000 more..........several times what the RAF has in total , in one order..............
Egypt has a decent army - but its fully engaged dealing with its own problems in the Sinai and preparing to operate in Libya.
The Gulf states airforces have about 4 times the capability Cameron has reduced the RAF to - but their armies are very suspect.
They are here. And some that are there can fly home here within 3 hours.
The terrorists have also had some success working out what techniques to kill lots of people work, and with a bit more intelligence brought to bear, working out what to do ,could do an awful lot of damage here.
The bigger threat though is that ISISi is now winning in Syria which has both missiles that can hit Europe, and chemical and biological weapons its kept despite agreeing to get rid of teh chemical agent. its alos in Iraq which has nerve agent lying around in collapsed bunkers, and Libya which had both missiles and WMD . And in the longer run, there's the possibilit yit will inherit the complete set of arms from some Arab state it takes over. But for Israeli airstrikes and Libya surrendering its nuclear programme, we would now have iSIS fighting in 3 countries with nukes lying around. And if Iran goes nuclear there may soon be 4-5 Arab states with nuclear weapons and an isis problem. Its not a great prospect.
That would be the Jordan bombing the salmon in the Yemen rather than the Saudis bombinng with the same F-15's?
No, Jordan relies on US approved explodey stuff much as Israel does. Israel relies on the US to bankroll the US explodey stuff that the Arabs are relying on to bomb Yemen. At some point the Arabs will realise that they've been relying a bit too much on 3rd parties, and there may even be a slight chance that Israel realises the US isn't always it's friend when the US has been selling F-35s and all the toys to Saudi, Egypt, Turkey etc. And Saudi isn't exactly the US's friend any more.
I fully understand this but we were talking in the context of an ISIS type incursion into the EU states.
I agree, its not a heartening prospect.
Good read.
I've been raised with both Islamic and British ideals. I believe in respecting the elderly, working hard, upholding law and justice, to seek knowledge and protect those who are in danger. And as a Muslim I would love to see a united Ummuah(community) on earth. Get pass those borders that split us all up and have caused some of the greatest conflicts, if not all, on Earth. However not like this, not what ISIS are doing. The old form of expansionism and territory building is of the past. This is the modern world, where something like that can't be achieved.
And such a thing should not be achieved through the killings of innocent people, rape of young and old and the blatant disrespect for obvious rules in Islam and the Quraan. Now many of you may disagree with the Quran on many instances, but no one can deny there are not some good that lays within in its text.
Muslims were ordered by Prophet that the way in war is to not hurt the innocent. They must be protected. No innocent woman, child or elder must be harmed.
Yet ISIS who propagate to be true Muslims fail at their own ideal to which they state they represent. Because good people shouldn't be killed for no good reason. People like Alan Henning, who sought his way to help all those innocent and displaced civilians of Syria.
It depicts the brutal and disgusting nature of Isis. It's not a place of paradise, it's a pit of hell. And I wish that social media does more to stop it brainwashing countless of people into falling into its evil idealogy.
Because they don't represent the true ideals of Islam. Because I'm a Muslim. I watch British telly, pray five times a day, fast on the month of fasting, thank god for all I have everyday. I respect my elders and love my youngster. And I pursue education, alongside a range of people. Whether they wear skirts or jeans or a burka. I've been taught by mother to respect women and live to make everyone around me happy, even that stranger in the shops who needs help to get the item on the top shelf.
And I'm a Muslim and I don't belief in what Isis do. I don't act, agree or respect anything they do. And there are countless of people I know who feel the same.
Why should their filth block out what I believe in.
And they are. They are a threat to mainland Europe. To you and to me and if anything, the good for nothing EU must do at least something to prevent the more loss of innocent lives. We need to do more then simply bomb them. That hasn't been very effective. And I pray to God, that the barbarians get what they deserve and are thrown into the deepest pits of hell.
An Egypt, Israel, Jordan alliance.
I do wish for Pete sake that Turkey wakes up. They are vitally needed to end this scum,
Random US bombing isn't cutting it.