So what exactly are you saying. Yes to nursery but no to school. Or no to any form of nursery?
The main problem is, that there is a theory (that I agree with) that says formal schooling starts too early in the UK! From the age of 4, children are taught as part curriculum and assessed formally! In some European countries, Kindergarten is purely for play and no formal assessment, and children attend even if they do wear nappies because it is geared for that! In those countries, formal schooling starts at 6/7 which has shown far superior educational results when compared to children of the same age in the UK!
So, the side issue of this is that, by 6/7 children who attend school will be well out of nappies!
Channel 4 did a good documentary on it in the 90s!
The main problem is, that there is a theory (that I agree with) that says formal schooling starts too early in the UK! From the age of 4, children are taught as part curriculum and assessed formally! In some European countries, Kindergarten is purely for play and no formal assessment, and children attend even if they do wear nappies because it is geared for that! In those countries, formal schooling starts at 6/7 which has shown far superior educational results when compared to children of the same age in the UK!
So, the by side issue of this is that, by 6/7 children who attend school will be well out of nappies!
Surely nowadays the transisition from nursery to school is fairly seamless. My youngest daughter learned her numbers, alphabet colours, even writing her name at nursery. Form 1 was just a continuation of learning through play. I cannot see the problem TBH.
My daughter was not potty trained until she was 4 and then she still had occasional accidents during the day.
My son is 3 and 4 in august. he is in pull ups and If I take him to the toilet he will go. However he does not speak much, I ask him if he want's the toilet and he always says no.
So we are persevering with potty training but he will never as yet say toilet. However i'm not making a issue out of it with him as this will cause problems.
The school would prefer if he was not wearing pull ups but they understand that he will be ready when he is.
Some kids take longer then others to be potty trained.
Yes true. I'm sure there are a few instances of this. But it is becoming common far more often than you would expect- if it was just kids who were difficult to train. Good luck with yours- they can be stubborn blighters.
Surely nowadays the transisition from nursery to school is fairly seamless. My youngest daughter learned her numbers, alphabet colours, even writing her name at nursery. Form 1 was just a continuation of learning through play. I cannot see the problem TBH.
If you look at the results of children in Finland and the UK, the Finnish system is far more superior in terms of the children's learning and fine motor skill development!
I wrote a paper on it at Uni, its a real eye opener! We don't see a problem in this country because we are unaware of the issues!
My eldest boy starts school in September, he's been out of nappies for ages in the day but still can't go the night without peeing himself, so still wears them.
I'm dreading him still being in them come September
(although in all fairness to him we haven't tried for a while due to him having an operation, moving house etc, we're gonna give it a crack again next week....fingers crossed!)
If you look at the results of children in Finland and the UK, the Finnish system is far more superior in terms of the children's learning and fine motor skill development!
I wrote a paper on it at Uni, its a real eye opener! We don't see a problem in this country because we are unaware of the issues!
Anyway, thats for another thread!
Is it not accepted that children are at there most absorbent regarding learning in their early years.
It may be how we teach that is the problem.
My 4 1/2 yr old starts in September too. He has been potty trained since he was three so that's not an issue, but at the moment we are having issues to get him to effectively wipe his own bum. He is getting better, but i worry if its a sloppy one that there might be some unfortunate leftovers. Still, he claims that he "wont do poo's at school", so maybe it will be ok.
Is it not accepted that children are at there most absorbent regarding learning in their early years.
It may be how we teach that is the problem.
Im not saying that they don't start learning until 6/7 but over there, Kindergarten is entirely play and children are not 'forced' to learn in a certain way or assessed and lasts until 6/7! Over here, Reception is assessed, you teach children to hold pencils the correct way when their fingers aren't big enough, we put them in pass or fail situations far too early etc(these are just two examples, I'm not suggesting that the whole theory is based on these alone!) ...its a huge subject area and well worth a look!
Ultimately, yes you are right, it is the teaching methods that are criticised!
My little sister is 3, she will be 4 in July.
She is starting school this September and she is currently at playgroup. She's still in nappies, however we have been potty training her since the end of last year. She's wearing trainer pants, so if she does have accidents then at least it wouldn't be too bad. However the last couple of weeks we be putting normal pants on her. No matter how many times we tell her to use the toilet/potty, she would never go. We keep asking her if she needs to go, she always says no. We even had to place her on the toilet/potty but she just has a tantrum when we do this. She always does it in her trainer pants/normal pants. She never learns.
We are getting worried now as she is due to start school this year. Is there any advice out there?
Quit using the trainer pants, stick with ordinary so that she feels uncomfortable. Hopefully she'll come to hate that feeling and learn to ask for the toilet every time she needs to go. Also, resort to being ultra firm with her. Tell her that she can't go to a favourite activity she loves ( swimming/dancing/ playpark etc. ) unless she asks for the toilet. After a couple of days of this, if you have a breakthrough and she's accident free, introduce the activity as a reward for being a good girl. You could also tell her that if she's still in babies nappies by her birthday, then she'll only get babies toys for a present rather than a big girls present ! Point out other little girls her age and say that they're not wearing nappies because they're clever big girls who don't need to anymore. You sometimes have to resort to these measures for the penny to drop home !
Im not saying that they don't start learning until 6/7 but over there, Kindergarten is entirely play and children are not 'forced' or assessed and lasts until 6/7! Over here, Reception is assessed, you teach children to hold pencils the correct way when their fingers aren't big enough, we put them in pass or fail situations far too early etc(these are just two examples, I'm not suggesting that the whole theory is based on these alone!) ...its a huge subject area and well worth a look!
Ultimately, yes you are right, it is the teaching methods that are criticised!
From what I understand about education on the continent, although formal schooling starts later their kindergartens are not dumping grounds for pre school children. Indeed learning is the key to what kindergartens are about.
But back to nappies:D
Right here I go, I know that I am going to be shot down for this post, but I don’t care.
I am 61 and have four children, mothers of my age learned from their own mothers and were grateful for the support and advice. Three of my children (the last one born in 1985) wore Terri nappies so potty training was done very early for the child’s welfare, nappy rash and the sheer encumbrance of them, also for Mothers having to boil wash them daily.
On the advice of my mother I sat my children on the potty as soon as they could sit unaided, no results were expected it was just for them to be used to sitting on one, books were read and games played to make it fun and normal. They all (including the one that wore disposables) were trained between the age of 18mths and 2yrs…….yes they were all different. Dry at night by 3yrs, a couple before then.
Now I have grandchildren, and unlike me my own daughter , was swayed by what she read and was told by modern childcare experts that made them believe that they should leave the children to do it in their own time, and that the potty training could be detrimental. Now she says that she wished she had taken my advice, her experiences were a nightmare and took so long. I cannot identify with this….. potty training for me was a breeze.
This was all posted without any smugness, but I stand by what I say and hope that my other daughters will at least listen a little.
Edited to add.....None of my children have any Psychological issues from their potty training
My eldest boy starts school in September, he's been out of nappies for ages in the day but still can't go the night without peeing himself, so still wears them.
I'm dreading him still being in them come September
(although in all fairness to him we haven't tried for a while due to him having an operation, moving house etc, we're gonna give it a crack again next week....fingers crossed!)
Don't worry. My son is a 30th of August child and started school last September dry during the day. He is still wet 2 nights out of 7 so I still put him in pull ups during the night but no one at school knows and he is fine with it.
I have to say I did think starting him at 4 was very early but he was so bored at pre-school. Reception really is just a bit extra than that - I believe it's when they start year 1 that things really start changing for them.
The school have been very good with my son, they don't compare him to the other children in his class rather to children born around the same time.
'At least one child'? Isn't it an assumption by your friend that the parent is lazy?
She's the one who will have met the parents and talked to them about the issue, so I guess she's better placed than you or I to make a judgement call on whether it's down to lazy parenting or not.
ETA. As I said in my OP, this is just her experience. I'm not for one minute suggesting that every single case of a child starting school without being potty trained is down to lazy parenting.
Right here I go, I know that I am going to be shot down for this post, but I don’t care.
I am 61 and have four children, mothers of my age learned from their own mothers and were grateful for the support and advice. Three of my children (the last one born in 1985) wore Terri nappies so potty training was done very early for the child’s welfare, nappy rash and the sheer encumbrance of them, also for Mothers having to boil wash them daily.
On the advice of my mother I sat my children on the potty as soon as they could sit unaided, no results were expected it was just for them to be used to sitting on one, books were read and games played to make it fun and normal. They all (including the one that wore disposables) were trained between the age of 18mths and 2yrs…….yes they were all different. Dry at night by 3yrs, a couple before then.
Now I have grandchildren, and unlike me my own daughter , was swayed by what she read and was told by modern childcare experts that made them believe that they should leave the children to do it in their own time, and that the potty training could be detrimental. Now she says that she wished she had taken my advice, her experiences were a nightmare and took so long. I cannot identify with this….. potty training for me was a breeze.
This was all posted without any smugness, but I stand by what I say and hope that my other daughters will at least listen a little.
As a mum and grandmother the same age as you, I agree with you entirely.
Why it has become such a huge chore I know not.
I could understand the logic behind leaving toilet traing until 36 months if we had been doing it wrong and there was evidence to prove it.
Its a case here of why fix what was'nt broken. Or did mums like us do irreparable damage to our children?:o
As a mum and grandmother the same age as you, I agree with you entirely.
Why it has become such a huge chore I know not.
I could understand the logic behind leaving toilet traing until 36 months if we had been doing it wrong and there was evidence to prove it. Its a case here of why fix what was'nt broken. Or did mums like us do irreparable damage to our children?
Thank you
Haha I edited my post to say
None of my children have any Psychological issues from their potty training
My eldest was 2 years and 4 months by the time she was dry during the day and about three at night. I didn't go down the pull-up route in the day - I just put her in pants and if she wet herself she hated it! Took about 4 days and she was trained.
My middle two were the same age (twins) - with one twin being dry both day and night from the start. The other twin still sometimes wets the bed at night but she sleeps like the dead, they are now just over three.
I've got two more to potty train - they are coming up to 18 months so I've a few months left.
It is messy and having to do two of them while pregnant was a nightmare. Sometimes I could barely bend over to wipe things up but you have to keep at it.
On the other hand my niece is 4 1/2 and still wears pull ups and has a dummy at night. I remember talking to my SIL about it and she said "nursery will do that" and that as she has to get up for work it's easier for her to have pull-ups and keep the dummy. Now that to me is lazy!
I have psychological issues. Could it be due to my potty training? I've no idea.
The problem with most psychological issues is it is hard to find the root cause.
Ithink a child of 5/6 soiling himself in school and having nappy changed by teacher while watched by a class full of smug clean little children runs a greater risk of issues.
I have psychological issues. Could it be due to my potty training? I've no idea.
The problem with most psychological issues is it is hard to find the root cause.
Point taken. I do agree we cannot pinpoint issues we have as adults, but I do think that they are more to do with the emotional side of our upbringing rather than the practical side, ie potty training, using a knife and fork, washing, dressing ourselves, tying shoelaces, telling the time, and so on and on.
As parents we can all give our children limiting beliefs that are very damaging and cause psychological problems . Unfortunately a lot of us do this, but I really cannot relate it to practical parenting, just emotional, but I would stand corrected.
ours is 3 n a half now only wears them at night now. still has a lot of accidents though he can be just standing talking to you or whatever n just starts to pee.
Ithink a child of 5/6 soiling himself in school and having nappy changed by teacher while watched by a class full of smug clean little children runs a greater risk of issues.
I think you are right - I know I went to school with a couple of smelly children and they were sadly singled out for that - I feel really sorry for any child that couldn't help soiling themselves.
There is one little girl at my niece's school who wears nappies, but she has Down's syndrome and the other kids accept this with ease because of her disability.
My children had to be toilet trained before the nursery took them. They were taken into nursery at 2years 8 months.
Many years back our neighbors young son was almost ready to be starting school, except he hadn't been potty trained. My mum used to babysit him an awful lot and ended up being the one to train him.
His parents really didn't give a hoot, his dad was a raging alcoholic always drunk out of his mind and his mum lived in a fantasy world.
My son is 3 (4 in october) and is starting nursery this september, We have been dry in the day for months now, but now way at night,he doesnt even wake when he needs a wee at night. To be honest im not sure how to toilet train during the night
I'm afraid I put her on the loo before she went to bed and put a nappy on her. Then when she got up - usually about 2am to 5am, again (terrible, nightmare non sleeper). After a while the nappies were dry in the morning and she slept without the nappy.
Maybe some mums think the child will have a blinding flash of light and will suddenly remove its nappy and be toilet trained.
Its not called trained for nothing! It does require a fair bit of time and patience as Im sure most mums know!!
I tried and at the same time I was trying the poor child got a water infection. She was then scared of the potty. I just gave it up and she did actually take her nappy off to use the toilet, long before school.
She went to nursery at 21/2, in a nappy, but was dry by about 3, though I would put her in a nappy for long town trips etc.
It was pretty painless for me. Much better than when I was trying to 'train' her.
Perhaps I was just lucky. But it was VERY rare for a child to be in nappies at 5 - it was years ago though.
Comments
The main problem is, that there is a theory (that I agree with) that says formal schooling starts too early in the UK! From the age of 4, children are taught as part curriculum and assessed formally! In some European countries, Kindergarten is purely for play and no formal assessment, and children attend even if they do wear nappies because it is geared for that! In those countries, formal schooling starts at 6/7 which has shown far superior educational results when compared to children of the same age in the UK!
So, the side issue of this is that, by 6/7 children who attend school will be well out of nappies!
Channel 4 did a good documentary on it in the 90s!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUum1w8s5ew
Surely nowadays the transisition from nursery to school is fairly seamless. My youngest daughter learned her numbers, alphabet colours, even writing her name at nursery. Form 1 was just a continuation of learning through play. I cannot see the problem TBH.
My son is 3 and 4 in august. he is in pull ups and If I take him to the toilet he will go. However he does not speak much, I ask him if he want's the toilet and he always says no.
So we are persevering with potty training but he will never as yet say toilet. However i'm not making a issue out of it with him as this will cause problems.
The school would prefer if he was not wearing pull ups but they understand that he will be ready when he is.
Yes true. I'm sure there are a few instances of this. But it is becoming common far more often than you would expect- if it was just kids who were difficult to train. Good luck with yours- they can be stubborn blighters.
If you look at the results of children in Finland and the UK, the Finnish system is far more superior in terms of the children's learning and fine motor skill development!
I wrote a paper on it at Uni, its a real eye opener! We don't see a problem in this country because we are unaware of the issues!
Anyway, thats for another thread!
I'm dreading him still being in them come September
(although in all fairness to him we haven't tried for a while due to him having an operation, moving house etc, we're gonna give it a crack again next week....fingers crossed!)
Is it not accepted that children are at there most absorbent regarding learning in their early years.
It may be how we teach that is the problem.
Im not saying that they don't start learning until 6/7 but over there, Kindergarten is entirely play and children are not 'forced' to learn in a certain way or assessed and lasts until 6/7! Over here, Reception is assessed, you teach children to hold pencils the correct way when their fingers aren't big enough, we put them in pass or fail situations far too early etc(these are just two examples, I'm not suggesting that the whole theory is based on these alone!) ...its a huge subject area and well worth a look!
Ultimately, yes you are right, it is the teaching methods that are criticised!
Have a look at this recent thread on the subject http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1819761&highlight=toilet+training
Quit using the trainer pants, stick with ordinary so that she feels uncomfortable. Hopefully she'll come to hate that feeling and learn to ask for the toilet every time she needs to go. Also, resort to being ultra firm with her. Tell her that she can't go to a favourite activity she loves ( swimming/dancing/ playpark etc. ) unless she asks for the toilet. After a couple of days of this, if you have a breakthrough and she's accident free, introduce the activity as a reward for being a good girl. You could also tell her that if she's still in babies nappies by her birthday, then she'll only get babies toys for a present rather than a big girls present ! Point out other little girls her age and say that they're not wearing nappies because they're clever big girls who don't need to anymore. You sometimes have to resort to these measures for the penny to drop home !
From what I understand about education on the continent, although formal schooling starts later their kindergartens are not dumping grounds for pre school children. Indeed learning is the key to what kindergartens are about.
But back to nappies:D
I am 61 and have four children, mothers of my age learned from their own mothers and were grateful for the support and advice. Three of my children (the last one born in 1985) wore Terri nappies so potty training was done very early for the child’s welfare, nappy rash and the sheer encumbrance of them, also for Mothers having to boil wash them daily.
On the advice of my mother I sat my children on the potty as soon as they could sit unaided, no results were expected it was just for them to be used to sitting on one, books were read and games played to make it fun and normal. They all (including the one that wore disposables) were trained between the age of 18mths and 2yrs…….yes they were all different. Dry at night by 3yrs, a couple before then.
Now I have grandchildren, and unlike me my own daughter , was swayed by what she read and was told by modern childcare experts that made them believe that they should leave the children to do it in their own time, and that the potty training could be detrimental. Now she says that she wished she had taken my advice, her experiences were a nightmare and took so long. I cannot identify with this….. potty training for me was a breeze.
This was all posted without any smugness, but I stand by what I say and hope that my other daughters will at least listen a little.
Edited to add.....None of my children have any Psychological issues from their potty training
Don't worry. My son is a 30th of August child and started school last September dry during the day. He is still wet 2 nights out of 7 so I still put him in pull ups during the night but no one at school knows and he is fine with it.
I have to say I did think starting him at 4 was very early but he was so bored at pre-school. Reception really is just a bit extra than that - I believe it's when they start year 1 that things really start changing for them.
The school have been very good with my son, they don't compare him to the other children in his class rather to children born around the same time.
She's the one who will have met the parents and talked to them about the issue, so I guess she's better placed than you or I to make a judgement call on whether it's down to lazy parenting or not.
ETA. As I said in my OP, this is just her experience. I'm not for one minute suggesting that every single case of a child starting school without being potty trained is down to lazy parenting.
As a mum and grandmother the same age as you, I agree with you entirely.
Why it has become such a huge chore I know not.
I could understand the logic behind leaving toilet traing until 36 months if we had been doing it wrong and there was evidence to prove it.
Its a case here of why fix what was'nt broken. Or did mums like us do irreparable damage to our children?:o
Thank you
Haha I edited my post to say
None of my children have any Psychological issues from their potty training
My middle two were the same age (twins) - with one twin being dry both day and night from the start. The other twin still sometimes wets the bed at night but she sleeps like the dead, they are now just over three.
I've got two more to potty train - they are coming up to 18 months so I've a few months left.
It is messy and having to do two of them while pregnant was a nightmare. Sometimes I could barely bend over to wipe things up but you have to keep at it.
On the other hand my niece is 4 1/2 and still wears pull ups and has a dummy at night. I remember talking to my SIL about it and she said "nursery will do that" and that as she has to get up for work it's easier for her to have pull-ups and keep the dummy. Now that to me is lazy!
The problem with most psychological issues is it is hard to find the root cause.
Ithink a child of 5/6 soiling himself in school and having nappy changed by teacher while watched by a class full of smug clean little children runs a greater risk of issues.
Point taken. I do agree we cannot pinpoint issues we have as adults, but I do think that they are more to do with the emotional side of our upbringing rather than the practical side, ie potty training, using a knife and fork, washing, dressing ourselves, tying shoelaces, telling the time, and so on and on.
As parents we can all give our children limiting beliefs that are very damaging and cause psychological problems . Unfortunately a lot of us do this, but I really cannot relate it to practical parenting, just emotional, but I would stand corrected.
I think you are right - I know I went to school with a couple of smelly children and they were sadly singled out for that - I feel really sorry for any child that couldn't help soiling themselves.
There is one little girl at my niece's school who wears nappies, but she has Down's syndrome and the other kids accept this with ease because of her disability.
Many years back our neighbors young son was almost ready to be starting school, except he hadn't been potty trained. My mum used to babysit him an awful lot and ended up being the one to train him.
His parents really didn't give a hoot, his dad was a raging alcoholic always drunk out of his mind and his mum lived in a fantasy world.
I'm afraid I put her on the loo before she went to bed and put a nappy on her. Then when she got up - usually about 2am to 5am, again (terrible, nightmare non sleeper). After a while the nappies were dry in the morning and she slept without the nappy.
I tried and at the same time I was trying the poor child got a water infection. She was then scared of the potty. I just gave it up and she did actually take her nappy off to use the toilet, long before school.
She went to nursery at 21/2, in a nappy, but was dry by about 3, though I would put her in a nappy for long town trips etc.
It was pretty painless for me. Much better than when I was trying to 'train' her.
Perhaps I was just lucky. But it was VERY rare for a child to be in nappies at 5 - it was years ago though.