I think that was me. You know what, i was wrong there. People like what they like, i was just saying what i like in matches, and if psychology is what you enjoy about wrestling, then thats cool. So yes, my apology on that.
Ahh fair enough man! I was also wrong to be so hostile. You are certainly one of the nicer guys on here
I have to say I completely agree with Bret Hart on this. What match can you really point to and say wow, Triple H had a great, legendary match?
Yes he has been involved in lots of memorable spectacles involving cages, cells, sledgehammers and other gimmicks...but when has he just had a great wrestling match?
I seriously can't think of any - whereas Bret, Shawn, Austin, Taker et al all have so many to their name.
Triple H ultimately will always be a Hall of Famer, remembered for gimmicks, DX, Sledgehammers, politicking, marrying the bosses' daughter and eventaking over the company - but he was truly never one of the all time greats based on wrestling ability.
I don't watch much wrestling now, but back in the attitude era i was a massive fan. I've always seen Triple H as a secondry character. He would have never drawn the crowds like Austin, Rock, HBK, Brett Hart, Taker did. He just made a good opponent for the no 1 guy. His greatest achievement in the his WWE career was marrying Stephanie McMahon. That has evidently served him well.
Triple H also had an amazing match with Benoit in 2000, can't remember the PPV though. I disagree with Hart's view that Triple H has never had a great match, but I agree with the general notion that he's overrated. Him being voted as PWI's 'Superstar of the Decade' was near farcical in my opinion.
Maybe the best Last Man Standing match ever, against Chris Jericho
The six man Hell in a Cell
Steve Austin - 3 Stages of Hell
The Summerslam streetfight with Shawn Michaels
Putting over Chris Benoit at Wrestlemania 20
The Hell in a Cell with Batista
The WM bouts with Undertaker
The telling fact in all that James. Is that in those "great" Triple H wrestling matches. ZERO of them were straight up wrestling matches which was Brets real point, he isnt an innovater, hes pretty steady and predictable. Solid, dependable and safe yes. But not in that top bracket of true greatness.
100% no doubt though that he is overrated. Which is down to the position he put himself in. For the first part of his career he basically followed Shawn Michaels around to weasel his way into the 'in crowd'. Can you imagine CM Punk doing something like that?
Triple H is very good at what he does. But I can never like him. He just comes across as a very unlikeably guy to me.
I worded that poorly, I meant Hart's style of technical wrestling.
If you watch a Punk-Bryan style it's very different from Bret vs Owen or anything that Bret's done. Bret came from a different era though
Yes, I know what you mean. Everyones style is different. But Punk/Bryan are much closer to Bret Hart than they are to Triple H. Punk can have a great match with anyone and keep it in the ring, just like Bret could. HHH just cant do that and keep it interesting enough he doesnt have that ability.
HHH makes up for it though via selling, pacing, psychology etc. Most of his matches are very good.
But I still agree with Bret. It depends what you like. If you like brawling, high spots, cage/ladder matches etc then absolutley HHH will be one of youre faves. In his first championship run he played his part so well. He looked dominant in his matches. But he made others look great also.
But to talk about preferences, I like to see precision, expertly executed suplexes, submissions, top rope manouvres, use of the ropes etc. I like to see innovative high flying moves and combinations. I just dont see much of that in HHH's repertoire I thought some of the stuff in the CM Punk vs John Cena match at Money In the Bank was among the best stuff iv seen ever. That particular sequence where Cena has the AA set up, Punk reverses to GTS, which Cena reverses to STF was superb. Thats my style of wrestling!
Someone should tell Bret Hart that having a "great match" involves more than doing 3 basic moves in the same order and looking bored.
In regards to HHH, his match against Cactus Jack at the RR was amazing, it doesn't matter if it has gimmicks or whatever, the fact is it was a great match.
It's interesting that I initially rubbished Bret's claim, but over the last day or so I found myself struggling to name a straight 1-on-1 normal match (no gimmicks) where I can remember thinking 'Wow, that was utterly fantastic!'. Only one I can think of off the top of my head is his match against (of all people!) John Cena at Wrestlemania 22. I remember being damn surprised by that match at the time and have thoroughly enjoyed it the 2-3 times I've watched it since. Also just thought of the Iron Man Match against The Rock, which the first time I saw it I remember thinking it was infinitely better than Harts one against HBK.
It's interesting that I initially rubbished Bret's claim, but over the last day or so I found myself struggling to name a straight 1-on-1 normal match (no gimmicks) where I can remember thinking 'Wow, that was utterly fantastic!'. Only one I can think of off the top of my head is his match against (of all people!) John Cena at Wrestlemania 22. I remember being damn surprised by that match at the time and have thoroughly enjoyed it the 2-3 times I've watched it since. Also just thought of the Iron Man Match against The Rock, which the first time I saw it I remember thinking it was infinitely better than Harts one against HBK.
I guess it depends how you rate it. Hogan never had a fantastic technical match.
You had the much planned Warrior bout, Savage and Slaughter carrying and selling him, and the iconic Andre bout but none of them were something you'd watch and think of the skill (perhaps for Savage)
It depends what you watch it for. If your a purist, I wouldn't go to WWE or TNA. I watched the above matches because they told a story, were built up well, booked well and not classics were still iconic moments.
More I think about it the more I'm...hmmm.
I mean, does Chelsea defending and being negative for 120 minutes against Bayern Munich make their Champions League victory any less?
----
Oh and there's a rumour that Pick TV will be airing Main Event as WWE is concerned about TNA footprint in the UK (though it's a false one since TNA is free to air and WWE LiveEvents still outsell by a huge number)
This discussion about HHH has made me realise how underrated John Cena is as a performer. He may not be technically great like Jericho, Punk, Bryan etc but he can certainly keep up with them and is very versatile,
While I can't think of a really great HHH straight up wrestling match, I can think of several for Cena off the top of my head.
John Cena vs Chris Jericho (SummerSlam 05)
John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (RAW - London 07?)
John Cena vs. CM Punk (MITB & Night of Champions)
This discussion about HHH has made me realise how underrated John Cena is as a performer. He may not be technically great like Jericho, Punk, Bryan etc but he can certainly keep up with them and is very versatile,
While I can't think of a really great HHH straight up wrestling match, I can think of several for Cena off the top of my head.
John Cena vs Chris Jericho (SummerSlam 05)
John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (RAW - London 07?)
John Cena vs. CM Punk (MITB & Night of Champions)
Absolutely sergio2006, i think the word there which you perfectly used was 'performer'.
I'll add another-
John Cena vs Lesnar 2012
vs Angle 2006
vs RVD 2006
vs Edge TLC
This discussion about HHH has made me realise how underrated John Cena is as a performer. He may not be technically great like Jericho, Punk, Bryan etc but he can certainly keep up with them and is very versatile,
While I can't think of a really great HHH straight up wrestling match, I can think of several for Cena off the top of my head.
John Cena vs Chris Jericho (SummerSlam 05)
John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (RAW - London 07?)
John Cena vs. CM Punk (MITB & Night of Champions)
Cena v Rock at last years WM wasn't a bad match tbh. I thought Rock vs Punk was terrible at the RR though.
The WWE guy I find has the best matches at the moment is Sheamus, despite being terrible on the mic, he can really go in the ring and I enjoy watching him.
ION : How the **** do they intend to sell Ziggler as a creditable MITB guy, when they have him jobbing to Cena for weeks on end, being called a "chicken" by Booker T on TV and giving no comeback and then losing clean to a newly babyfaced Del Rio from a tap out...
It's interesting that I initially rubbished Bret's claim, but over the last day or so I found myself struggling to name a straight 1-on-1 normal match (no gimmicks) where I can remember thinking 'Wow, that was utterly fantastic!'. Only one I can think of off the top of my head is his match against (of all people!) John Cena at Wrestlemania 22. I remember being damn surprised by that match at the time and have thoroughly enjoyed it the 2-3 times I've watched it since. Also just thought of the Iron Man Match against The Rock, which the first time I saw it I remember thinking it was infinitely better than Harts one against HBK.
Those were the two matches that sprung to mind in terms of straight wrestling i thought they were fantastic bouts!
I always loved HHH as an in ring performer his matches with The Rock at Backlash 2000 and with Cactus Jack at RR 2000 will forever always be my two fav matches!
And i'll agree with the poster that said Cena i dont care what anyone says he is an unbelievable performer a lot of his matches have entertained the hell out of me!
I think the greatest straight up pure wrestler ever is Kurt Angle! I didnt think there was a wrestling move that guy couldn't do he produced on the big occasions!
Those were the two matches that sprung to mind in terms of straight wrestling i thought they were fantastic bouts!
I always loved HHH as an in ring performer his matches with The Rock at Backlash 2000 and with Cactus Jack at RR 2000 will forever always be my two fav matches!
And i'll agree with the poster that said Cena i dont care what anyone says he is an unbelievable performer a lot of his matches have entertained the hell out of me!
I think the greatest straight up pure wrestler ever is Kurt Angle! I didnt think there was a wrestling move that guy couldn't do he produced on the big occasions!
Kurt Angle was/is, my favourite wrestler of all time, he has absolutely everything.
I was privileged to watch Angle wrestle Eddie Gurerro live, that was fantastic.
(not as good as watching Flair vs Henning in a WCW tour show in Manchester though)
After the a house show match one time in Newcastle, Eddie came over to us in the crowd and let me hold the Heavyweight title for a picture, which I was reluctant to do (being a soft bastard, I thought "I've never won it, why should I be allowed to hold it), and he couldn't have been more gracious.
Triple H also had an amazing match with Benoit in 2000, can't remember the PPV though. I disagree with Hart's view that Triple H has never had a great match, but I agree with the general notion that he's overrated. Him being voted as PWI's 'Superstar of the Decade' was near farcical in my opinion.
No Mercy 2000.
Mark it in the history books as a day in which Benoit was outwrestled - Triple H really stole the spotlight that night and showed that he can be technical as well as brawl.
Watched Smackdown for the first time in awhile last night. Surprised to see Swagger back and in a somewhat upper-midcard role but wow, the guy was like a machine against Kofi. So smooth and great technical ability. Hopefully they'll keep consistent with him because the guy has talent.
I always loved HHH as an in ring performer his matches with The Rock at Backlash 2000 and with Cactus Jack at RR 2000 will forever always be my two fav matches!
2000 was an amazing year on PPV for WWE, probably their best year ever.
That Rock v HHH match at Backlash should have been the Wrestlemania main event instead of the fatal 4 way match, which seemed too focused on the McMahon family for me.
Comments
Ahh fair enough man! I was also wrong to be so hostile. You are certainly one of the nicer guys on here
I don't watch much wrestling now, but back in the attitude era i was a massive fan. I've always seen Triple H as a secondry character. He would have never drawn the crowds like Austin, Rock, HBK, Brett Hart, Taker did. He just made a good opponent for the no 1 guy. His greatest achievement in the his WWE career was marrying Stephanie McMahon. That has evidently served him well.
It's all subjective, but imo:
The telling fact in all that James. Is that in those "great" Triple H wrestling matches. ZERO of them were straight up wrestling matches which was Brets real point, he isnt an innovater, hes pretty steady and predictable. Solid, dependable and safe yes. But not in that top bracket of true greatness.
100% no doubt though that he is overrated. Which is down to the position he put himself in. For the first part of his career he basically followed Shawn Michaels around to weasel his way into the 'in crowd'. Can you imagine CM Punk doing something like that?
Triple H is very good at what he does. But I can never like him. He just comes across as a very unlikeably guy to me.
Hart is conveniently forgetting he spent most of his formative WWF time winning matches will roll up pins...
I disagree with that.
Punk and Daniel Bryan were world champions in 2012. 2 of the best technical wrestlers around.
WWE have been hiring a lot of ROH wrestlers, typically more technical style wrestlers. Ironically this is supposedly Triple H's doing.
I worded that poorly, I meant Hart's style of technical wrestling.
If you watch a Punk-Bryan style it's very different from Bret vs Owen or anything that Bret's done. Bret came from a different era though
Yes, I know what you mean. Everyones style is different. But Punk/Bryan are much closer to Bret Hart than they are to Triple H. Punk can have a great match with anyone and keep it in the ring, just like Bret could. HHH just cant do that and keep it interesting enough he doesnt have that ability.
HHH makes up for it though via selling, pacing, psychology etc. Most of his matches are very good.
But I still agree with Bret. It depends what you like. If you like brawling, high spots, cage/ladder matches etc then absolutley HHH will be one of youre faves. In his first championship run he played his part so well. He looked dominant in his matches. But he made others look great also.
But to talk about preferences, I like to see precision, expertly executed suplexes, submissions, top rope manouvres, use of the ropes etc. I like to see innovative high flying moves and combinations. I just dont see much of that in HHH's repertoire I thought some of the stuff in the CM Punk vs John Cena match at Money In the Bank was among the best stuff iv seen ever. That particular sequence where Cena has the AA set up, Punk reverses to GTS, which Cena reverses to STF was superb. Thats my style of wrestling!
In regards to HHH, his match against Cactus Jack at the RR was amazing, it doesn't matter if it has gimmicks or whatever, the fact is it was a great match.
Further, FU Bret.
(I dislike Bret Hart immensely)
___
Hhh is fantastic to me though. I think he has been the heel of the last decade.
I guess it depends how you rate it. Hogan never had a fantastic technical match.
You had the much planned Warrior bout, Savage and Slaughter carrying and selling him, and the iconic Andre bout but none of them were something you'd watch and think of the skill (perhaps for Savage)
It depends what you watch it for. If your a purist, I wouldn't go to WWE or TNA. I watched the above matches because they told a story, were built up well, booked well and not classics were still iconic moments.
More I think about it the more I'm...hmmm.
I mean, does Chelsea defending and being negative for 120 minutes against Bayern Munich make their Champions League victory any less?
----
Oh and there's a rumour that Pick TV will be airing Main Event as WWE is concerned about TNA footprint in the UK (though it's a false one since TNA is free to air and WWE LiveEvents still outsell by a huge number)
While I can't think of a really great HHH straight up wrestling match, I can think of several for Cena off the top of my head.
John Cena vs Chris Jericho (SummerSlam 05)
John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (RAW - London 07?)
John Cena vs. CM Punk (MITB & Night of Champions)
Absolutely sergio2006, i think the word there which you perfectly used was 'performer'.
I'll add another-
John Cena vs Lesnar 2012
vs Angle 2006
vs RVD 2006
vs Edge TLC
Cena v Rock at last years WM wasn't a bad match tbh. I thought Rock vs Punk was terrible at the RR though.
The WWE guy I find has the best matches at the moment is Sheamus, despite being terrible on the mic, he can really go in the ring and I enjoy watching him.
ION : How the **** do they intend to sell Ziggler as a creditable MITB guy, when they have him jobbing to Cena for weeks on end, being called a "chicken" by Booker T on TV and giving no comeback and then losing clean to a newly babyfaced Del Rio from a tap out...
I agree with AJ there, Cena vs Lesnar was decent.
Those were the two matches that sprung to mind in terms of straight wrestling i thought they were fantastic bouts!
I always loved HHH as an in ring performer his matches with The Rock at Backlash 2000 and with Cactus Jack at RR 2000 will forever always be my two fav matches!
And i'll agree with the poster that said Cena i dont care what anyone says he is an unbelievable performer a lot of his matches have entertained the hell out of me!
I think the greatest straight up pure wrestler ever is Kurt Angle! I didnt think there was a wrestling move that guy couldn't do he produced on the big occasions!
Yes i agree there JR.
Owen had match with Kurt at a house show in early 1999 would have loved to have seen that!
I was privileged to watch Angle wrestle Eddie Gurerro live, that was fantastic.
(not as good as watching Flair vs Henning in a WCW tour show in Manchester though)
After the a house show match one time in Newcastle, Eddie came over to us in the crowd and let me hold the Heavyweight title for a picture, which I was reluctant to do (being a soft bastard, I thought "I've never won it, why should I be allowed to hold it), and he couldn't have been more gracious.
No Mercy 2000.
Mark it in the history books as a day in which Benoit was outwrestled - Triple H really stole the spotlight that night and showed that he can be technical as well as brawl.
2000 was an amazing year on PPV for WWE, probably their best year ever.
That Rock v HHH match at Backlash should have been the Wrestlemania main event instead of the fatal 4 way match, which seemed too focused on the McMahon family for me.