Hitler believed in God - in his eyes, it was God who wanted the white man to reign supreme, via natural selection - and he seemed to have a particular problem with Jews, which no atheist or agnostic has.
Sounds like a religious war to me.
You probably need to go back to your history books then.
I was responding to the claim that "most wars are caused by religion". The Encyclopedia of Wars lists 1762 wars over the course of human history, of which 123, or 7% are classed as religious wars.
I'm not sure why you are talking about persecution, because I never mentioned it.
Even then, I've always maintained that religion never actually causes wars, but is instead used as the excuse for some to justify them.
Given how amazing life is, and how incredible the creation of the universe is, people are so quick to dismiss any possible idea that a supreme being of some sort was involved. Why not just think, okay, perhaps there is 10% chance that might be the case ? Why dismiss it totally ?
The idea of a supreme being is a human creation. What we are doing with God is the actually reversal of any credible scientific process. We invent a solution and then spend the rest of eternity trying to prove the validity of our conclusion.
Quite correct. The anti-religious are fond of that quote that 'all wars are religious wars' but anyone with even the feeblest grasp of history knows that it isn't true.
Vietnam and Korea. Nope - political ideology was the main cause.
First and Second World wars. No religion involved there.
Napoleonic wars. Empire to blame there - not religion.
American Civil War - nationalism and economic self-interest
American war of independence - see above
Etc etc
In fact, in the case of Western countries, you have to go back to something like the Crusades to find a war caused by religious differences. Political ambition, nationalism, natural resources, territory, money - all these are far more significant causes of warfare than religion.
... but i bet every 'side' who fought a war believed god was on their side. the question is, would they have started a war if they thought god wasnt on their side?
I was responding to the claim that "most wars are caused by religion". The Encyclopedia of Wars lists 1762 wars over the course of human history, of which 123, or 7% are classed as religious wars.
I'm not sure why you are talking about persecution, because I never mentioned it.
maybe 'wars' was an inaccurate word to use... maybe 'deaths' wouyld be more accurate.
Well, considering that the Earth's entire human population was only about 1 billion in 1800 and had been far lower in previous years, I suspect that there simply weren't enough people on the face of the planet to exceed the death toll that has been exacted through non-religious wars over the past couple of centuries.
Hitler believed in God - in his eyes, it was God who wanted the white man to reign supreme, via natural selection - and he seemed to have a particular problem with Jews, which no atheist or agnostic has.
I was responding to the claim that "most wars are caused by religion". The Encyclopedia of Wars lists 1762 wars over the course of human history, of which 123, or 7% are classed as religious wars.
I'm not sure why you are talking about persecution, because I never mentioned it.
No that is why I always find posts that just say 'I believe x' puzzling; who cares. However I do think it matters or is at the least intereresting why people believe what they believe and it is important what if any rights or perogatives people think their beliefs should give them.
Puzzling, really? ( or should that be Really, puzzling?). Because as a believer I have been taken to task for not describing more specifically what I believe, whereas really it doesn't matter. Unless I believe in canibalism.
...
maybe 'wars' was an inaccurate word to use... maybe 'deaths' wouyld be more accurate.
but i take your point.
.
If you're trying to saying that religion is the cause of the most deaths, as opposed to wars, that's also wrong. The communist regimes of the 20th century were alone responsible for 10 millions of deaths.
... but i bet every 'side' who fought a war believed god was on their side. the question is, would they have started a war if they thought god wasnt on their side?
Which was really my point in the first place, although I could have expressed it far better.
By it's definition religion is divisive.
It is an ideal tool for the powerful to use to manipulate or persecute anyone that they see as a threat to their own ends (although at least in Western Liberal Democracies Christianity - for the most part - has become a far more pleasant and tolerant institution - simply because it has had to adapt to the modern world, I just hope that Islam does the same).
Its always good for a laugh to look at such websites. The editor Matt Slick is hilarious with his claims on atheism (I don't think he gets the concept but tries to introduce it being morally bankrupt, not explaining the beginning of life, etc, etc). Perhaps his atheist daughter will be able to help this misguided fool. Maybe she can also explain to him that using untruths like calling Hitler non-religious might help him slip away from his fallacies.
Hitler believed in God - in his eyes, it was God who wanted the white man to reign supreme, via natural selection - and he seemed to have a particular problem with Jews, which no atheist or agnostic has.
Sounds like a religious war to me.
What a ridiculous statement to make. No atheist of agnostic has a problem with Jews?
So it's just Christians that the atheists who want reprogrammed and they are happy Jewish people carry on believing ? That is atheism it's something else IMO
So it's just Christians that the atheists who want reprogrammed and they are happy Jewish people carry on believing ? That is atheism it's something else IMO
mushy speaks for himself mollie. ;-)
You might remember that too mushy. You don't speak for other atheists
There is something horribly arrogant and smug and narrow minded about a lot of atheists these days (not all). Back in the day it would be the people constantly going on about the Bible that would be annoying, but now all we seem to hear is atheists going on about people being lied to and a fake book. Why is it so few have an open mind ? I am agnostic and don't have a clue what created us or what happens when we die, and no one at all here knows for sure either. Given how amazing life is, and how incredible the creation of the universe is, people are so quick to dismiss any possible idea that a supreme being of some sort was involved. Why not just think, okay, perhaps there is 10% chance that might be the case ? Why dismiss it totally ?
Because there isn't even 10% of evidence to back it up, there is none. The atheist position is an open minded one, there may well be a god, or an easter bunny, or a flying teapot, but since the evidence for them is not there and the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming in comparison, then the likelihood that they don't exist is a pretty compelling one. I don't believe in god in the same way that I don't believe in all sorts of things.
Faith is the ultimate closed-mind position, you believe in something you have no evidence for, with some people doing some increasable mental gymnastics to align that belief with reality.
You might remember that too mushy. You don't speak for other atheists
I do feel sorry for some of the DS atheists in these arguments- while you're making the perfectly reasonable point that the only thing atheists have in common is a non-belief in God (or gods) and therefore it's wrong to generalise, there are always a few trying to torpedo that line of argument by telling us what other things atheists do or don't believe.
Comments
You probably need to go back to your history books then.
Even then, I've always maintained that religion never actually causes wars, but is instead used as the excuse for some to justify them.
The idea of a supreme being is a human creation. What we are doing with God is the actually reversal of any credible scientific process. We invent a solution and then spend the rest of eternity trying to prove the validity of our conclusion.
... but i bet every 'side' who fought a war believed god was on their side. the question is, would they have started a war if they thought god wasnt on their side?
maybe 'wars' was an inaccurate word to use... maybe 'deaths' wouyld be more accurate.
but i take your point.
fair comment.
It'd be nice if that were true, but it isn't.
I Googled and found this:
http://carm.org/religion-cause-war
"hatetheism" FFS!
Puzzling, really? ( or should that be Really, puzzling?). Because as a believer I have been taken to task for not describing more specifically what I believe, whereas really it doesn't matter. Unless I believe in canibalism.
Which was really my point in the first place, although I could have expressed it far better.
By it's definition religion is divisive.
It is an ideal tool for the powerful to use to manipulate or persecute anyone that they see as a threat to their own ends (although at least in Western Liberal Democracies Christianity - for the most part - has become a far more pleasant and tolerant institution - simply because it has had to adapt to the modern world, I just hope that Islam does the same).
Its always good for a laugh to look at such websites. The editor Matt Slick is hilarious with his claims on atheism (I don't think he gets the concept but tries to introduce it being morally bankrupt, not explaining the beginning of life, etc, etc). Perhaps his atheist daughter will be able to help this misguided fool. Maybe she can also explain to him that using untruths like calling Hitler non-religious might help him slip away from his fallacies.
Well supreme is a relative term so he would need us in order to be supreme.
What a ridiculous statement to make. No atheist of agnostic has a problem with Jews?
nothing ridiculous about that.
No, Stalin loved Jews.
It's the DM so let me guess... it's anti-atheist?
But not Trotsky:)
1 for the Inquistion
2 for Mao
and so on.
Then just call out the numbers.
I dare say to you, it makes complete sense.
I'm atheist and I have a problem with Jews
So it's just Christians that the atheists who want reprogrammed and they are happy Jewish people carry on believing ? That is atheism it's something else IMO
mushy speaks for himself mollie. ;-)
You might remember that too mushy. You don't speak for other atheists
Because there isn't even 10% of evidence to back it up, there is none. The atheist position is an open minded one, there may well be a god, or an easter bunny, or a flying teapot, but since the evidence for them is not there and the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming in comparison, then the likelihood that they don't exist is a pretty compelling one. I don't believe in god in the same way that I don't believe in all sorts of things.
Faith is the ultimate closed-mind position, you believe in something you have no evidence for, with some people doing some increasable mental gymnastics to align that belief with reality.
I do feel sorry for some of the DS atheists in these arguments- while you're making the perfectly reasonable point that the only thing atheists have in common is a non-belief in God (or gods) and therefore it's wrong to generalise, there are always a few trying to torpedo that line of argument by telling us what other things atheists do or don't believe.