Yet more racist filth from Italian fans.

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  • AZZURRI 06AZZURRI 06 Posts: 11,173
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    yevv wrote: »
    The italians could take a leaf out of suarez book and claim cultural differences

    Or just follow the example of the England captain and pretend they were merely repeating someone else`s words. Hypocritical or what.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    The_don1 wrote: »
    Not saying it does not exist

    Good, because it would just make you look silly if you tried to make that claim.

    You are right in saying that terrific work has been done to try and clear the blight of racism at football, it is just desperately sad that it was needed in the first place.
    the chimp wrote: »
    Yeah a few fans at one club......... I didn't realise it was as widespread as that.

    So you are claiming that there is no racist abuse hurled by fans of any club other than Millwall?

    Good luck getting anybody to believe you on that one.
  • The_don1The_don1 Posts: 17,350
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    timboy wrote: »
    Good, because it would just make you look silly if you tried to make that claim.

    You are right in saying that terrific work has been done to try and clear the blight of racism at football, it is just desperately sad that it was needed in the first place.

    So you are claiming that there is no racist abuse hurled by fans of any club other than Millwall?

    Good luck getting anybody to believe you on that one.

    But thats life, It was the same in the work force, It was the same in our homes it was the same everywhere.

    Same with sexism and many many forms of discrimation in many walks of life.

    We should not make out that only Football had the problem, It was a problem that effected every part of life and lots of work has been put in to making it unacceptable,
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »



    So you are claiming that there is no racist abuse hurled by fans of any club other than Millwall?

    Good luck getting anybody to believe you on that one.
    Why thank you and good luck to yourself too in your efforts trying to make out there's much of a racism problem in English football.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    Why thank you and good luck to yourself too in your efforts trying to make out there's much of a racism problem in English football.

    43 racially motivated arrests in the 2010/11 season and 23 racially motivated arrests in the 2011/12 season so pretty much 1 arrest per wee for when the football season is on the season before last.

    I never said the racism problem in English football was huge, I said it was still there and it is.
  • Steve AWOLSteve AWOL Posts: 1,910
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    For Italy's 'ultras,' nothing black and white about football and racism - CNN.com
    Hardcore Italian football "ultra" Federico is a Lazio supporter who happily admits directing monkey chants at black players.
    It is "a means to distract opposition players" says Federico, a member of the Irriducibili ("The Unbeatables") group which follows the Rome-based team.
    "I am against anyone who calls me a Nazi," Federico told academic Alberto Testa, who spent time "embedded" with Lazio and Roma ultras for the book "Football, Fascism and Fandom: The UltraS of Italian Football," co-authored by Gary Armstrong.

    ...Days after his return to Serie A, following his move from Manchester City to AC Milan, Italy-born Mario Balotelli was referred to by his new club's vice president Paulo Berlusconi -- the younger brother of the team's owner and the former Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi -- as "the family's little black boy."
    That remark came after, in what appeared to be an innocuous friendly match against fourth tier Italian side Pro Patria last month, Milan midfielder Kevin-Prince Boateng picked up the ball and kicked it into the stands before tearing off his black-and-red striped shirt and walking off in protest at the persistent monkey chanting to which he and three of his black teammates had been subjected.

    ...Amid the monkey chants and racial stereotyping, there are no easy answers to the question of just how prevalent is the incidence of racist abuse in Italian football.
    According to the Italian Football Federation (FIGC), there have been 50 incidents in Italy of racist abuse over the last six years. Of those 50 cases, 48 relate to racist chanting, with two relating to abusive banners.
    "And the total of violent episodes diminished from 209 to 60 and the majority of them happened outside the football venues," FIGC spokesman Diego Antenozio told CNN.
    "The introduction of stewarding has also reduced the need of intervention by police officers inside the venues significantly."

    However, talk to the head of Italy's Observatory on Racism and Anti-racism in Football, Mauro Valeri, who has been monitoring racism in Italian football for over a decade, and a different picture emerges.
    His organization estimates there have been over 660 racial incidents since 2000 and puts the number since 2007 at 282, nearly six times as much as the FIGC figure. In all, fines of $5 million have been handed out as punishment in those 660-plus cases, equating to a fine of $7,500 per incident.
    "The numbers I record relate to the decision that the judge takes in the sports court and lays down fines and any disqualifications. The FIGC figures concern the criminal law," said Valeri.
    "So in the Boateng case the sports court ruled that Pro Patria had to play the game ... 'behind closed doors' and were fined $6,689.
    "But the ordinary court -- the criminal law -- has instead decided that those songs were not racist. For me it's racism, for the Ministry of the Interior, no."

    Valeri added: "In Italy, no club has a real anti-racist strategy, because it believes the fight against racism is not a priority.
    "Since the early 1990s, many curves of the stadium have been occupied by neo-Nazi and neo-Fascist groups, but this problem has been addressed only as a problem of public order."
    That is a view that is supported by Italian football writer Charles Ducksbury, a fan of Verona, who added: "The ultra still, and always will hold all the power at clubs. They choose what is sung, what everyone does and how they do it.
    "Stewards and police hardly ever enter the curve as they would most likely get beaten up. Ultras say if the authorities stay out the curve, there won't be any problems. Almost all trouble happens outside the ground anyway, so that's where police tend to hang around."
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    43 racially motivated arrests in the 2010/11 season and 23 racially motivated arrests in the 2011/12 season so pretty much 1 arrest per wee for when the football season is on the season before last.

    I never said the racism problem in English football was huge, I said it was still there and it is.
    1 arrest per week, hmmmmm what's that, less than 1 arrest per couple of hundred matches, 1 per million or so people etc.

    There's many times that singing in just 1 match a lot of the time in Spain, Italy etc.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    1 arrest per week, hmmmmm what's that, less than 1 arrest per couple of hundred matches, 1 per million or so people etc.

    There's many times that singing in just 1 match a lot of the time in Spain, Italy etc.

    Playing the whataboutery card I see!

    As I said previously, I never said that that there was a huge racism problem in English football. I said that racist activity takes place in English grounds and in the 2010/11 season it was, based on the number of arrests, pretty much a weekly occurence.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    Playing the whataboutery card I see!

    As I said previously, I never said that that there was a huge racism problem in English football. I said that racist activity takes place in English grounds and in the 2010/11 season it was, based on the number of arrests, pretty much a weekly occurence.

    I fail to see why you had to bring England into it at all, England is the shining example to other countries, our problem is as small as it could be, you say 43 arrests, that's basically because we do something about it in this country, if you saw the same attitude in Spain and Italy to racism you would be talking thousands to start with........... Not 43.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    I fail to see why you had to bring England into it at all, England is the shining example to other countries, our problem is as small as it could be, you say 43 arrests, that's basically because we do something about it in this country, if you saw the same attitude in Spain and Italy to racism you would be talking thousands to start with........... Not 43.

    I made reference to England because of the comments posted by The_don1 having a go at t1t3h.

    As for the 43 arrests surely you realise that will be be the tip of the iceberg and that many instances will go unreported or the police are unable to identify the person who did it to arrest them?
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    I made reference to England because of the comments posted by The_don1 having a go at t1t3h.

    As for the 43 arrests surely you realise that will be be the tip of the iceberg and that many instances will go unreported or the police are unable to identify the person who did it to arrest them?

    Unable to identify ? How often is that goin to happen with credit/debit card sales for tickets and allocated seats making most people easily traceable, again mentioning England seems pretty pointless when our problem is absolutely minimal, I've been to hundreds of matches and not seen or heard a single racist comment, something that's a weekly occurance in many countries.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    Unable to identify ? How often is that goin to happen with credit/debit card sales for tickets and allocated seats making most people easily traceable

    So you have a stadium full of folk and 1 person in the stand shouts out that an opposition player is a "black bastard". The guys around the scumbag who shouted it don't grass him up and the police, at that moment in time, weren't looking at the guy on camera.

    How is having debit or credit card details going to assist in that? How is having debit/credit card details going to assist if it is at a ground with terracing?
    the chimp wrote:
    again mentioning England seems pretty pointless when our problem is absolutely minimal

    Just because the problem might be minimal doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed.
    the chimp wrote:
    I've been to hundreds of matches and not seen or heard a single racist comment, something that's a weekly occurance in many countries.

    Lucky you.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    So you have a stadium full of folk and 1 person in the stand shouts out that an opposition player is a "black bastard". The guys around the scumbag who shouted it don't grass him up and the police, at that moment in time, weren't looking at the guy on camera.

    How is having debit or credit card details going to assist in that? How is having debit/credit card details going to assist if it is at a ground with terracing?



    Just because the problem might be minimal doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed.



    Lucky you.
    In England as much as is humanly possible is done, in other countries next to nothing is done, the policing here is immense in comparison.

    On your first part, it can still be reported by the player which would prompt a CCTV investigation which constantly monitors the whole of a stand.

    Secondly they are minimal and everything that can be done is being done.

    Thirdly, it's not luck, it's just how it is now it is here now.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    In England as much as is humanly possible is done, in other countries next to nothing is done, the policing here is immense in comparison.

    I don't think that anyone has said anything to the contrary.
    the chimp wrote: »
    On your first part, it can still be reported by the player which would prompt a CCTV investigation which constantly monitors the whole of a stand.

    The player might not hear it to report it and the CCTV is not going to pick up what every individual person has said if it is recording sound.
    the chimp wrote: »
    Secondly they are minimal and everything that can be done is being done.

    Once again, I've never said anything to the contrary of that.
    the chimp wrote: »
    Thirdly, it's not luck, it's just how it is now it is here now.

    In that case there will never be another arrest for racist behaviour by an English fan in a football ground then, will there?
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »

    In that case there will never be another arrest for racist behaviour by an English fan in a football ground then, will there?
    that's the way we are headed, last season there were only 23 arrests.


    http://www.futaa.com/football/article/-report-chelsea-fans-are-the-most-racist
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    that's the way we are headed, last season there were only 23 arrests.


    http://www.futaa.com/football/article/-report-chelsea-fans-are-the-most-racist

    Headed?

    You claimed that you had never heard racist chants in an English football ground and that there were no racist chants in English football any more.

    Moving the goalposts much??
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    Headed?

    You claimed that you had never heard racist chants in an English football ground and that there were no racist chants in English football any more.

    Moving the goalposts much??
    23 people spread over 9 months managed to do a chant ? What did they do, piece video of each one together and make a you tube montage ?

    I have never heard racist chant or jibe at a football match, when you add together the amount of people at matches all over the country week after week when these 23 arrests were made it comes to multi millions, and no, I don't believe there are racist chants ant English grounds anymore, people here wouldn't stand for it.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    23 people spread over 9 months managed to do a chant ? What did they do, piece video of each one together and make a you tube montage ?

    I have never heard racist chant or jibe at a football match, when you add together the amount of people at matches all over the country week after week when these 23 arrests were made it comes to multi millions, and no, I don't believe there are racist chants ant English grounds anymore, people here wouldn't stand for it.

    http://www.eighteensixtyfive.co.uk/2012/01/reds-fans-must-show-racism-the-red-card/

    One of your fellow Forest fans has certainly heard racist chanting/comments from a section of your support.

    The sad fact of the matter is that there will always be racist comments made in football grounds, and that is football grounds all over the world. It will be impossible to completely eradicate it whether it be someone shouting something in the heart of the moment or because they get mouthy after having a few pints and they let the 'real' them come out.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    http://www.eighteensixtyfive.co.uk/2012/01/reds-fans-must-show-racism-the-red-card/

    One of your fellow Forest fans has certainly heard racist chanting/comments from a section of your support.

    The sad fact of the matter is that there will always be racist comments made in football grounds, and that is football grounds all over the world. It will be impossible to completely eradicate it whether it be someone shouting something in the heart of the moment or because they get mouthy after having a few pints and they let the 'real' them come out.
    I still haven't heard any there, and the fact remains that this problem is as small as it can be in this country and I still find your earlier comment about English football unnescesarry, the op started a thread about the racist chants "again" being heard in Italy, in no way can you compare that to anything in England.
  • timboytimboy Posts: 30,094
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    the chimp wrote: »
    I still haven't heard any there

    I never said you had, I merely said that another supporter of your club has heard various racist chant/comments emanating from your support.
    the chimp wrote: »
    and the fact remains that this problem is as small as it can be in this country

    Is that you admitting that racism will never be completely eradicated from English football grounds? I mean you have previously claimed that the problem in England was very small and then you claimed there is no racist comments/chants in English grounds .
    the chimp wrote: »
    and I still find your earlier comment about English football unnescesarry

    I have already explained why and if you don't like it then tough. You aren't a mod.
    the chimp wrote: »
    , the op started a thread about the racist chants "again" being heard in Italy, in no way can you compare that to anything in England.

    We can compare it to what happens in England. The comparison is that compared to how many incidents there are in England there are more in Italy.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    timboy wrote: »
    I never said you had, I merely said that another supporter of your club has heard various racist chant/comments emanating from your support.



    Is that you admitting that racism will never be completely eradicated from English football grounds? I mean you have previously claimed that the problem in England was very small and then you claimed there is no racist comments/chants in English grounds .



    I have already explained why and if you don't like it then tough. You aren't a mod.



    We can compare it to what happens in England. The comparison is that compared to how many incidents there are in England there are more in Italy.
    1. I have never heard any at either the city ground or anywhere else, that will never change no matter how much you try and bring up one incident heard by one or two people, you have to realise though that the match is a local derby between two teams that hate each other where the supporters will do anything to wind each other up, just like your lot with their sectarian rubbish, I'm not condoning it, but if it did happen then that's the reason.

    2. In my very first post I said racism will never be eradicated.

    3. You know that your having a go at England was based on nothing other than bitterness, as a scot you seem to hate the fact that England is the shining light at anything, bad news for you though is that it is.

    4. See point 3.
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    You wont eradicate racism 100% from football because it exists in society and football tends to reflect that.

    However individual incidents be it in the crowd or on the pitch should be dealt with as such - individual incidents. Thats very different from large pockets of fans chanting or indulging in racist behaviour. They should be hit and hit hard. If the clubs are punished in a meaningful way, and by that i mean a ban from Europe or something, it will be wiped out in a stroke.

    Similarly after the Suarez and Terry debacles id like the FA to come out and announce what the punishment for racist language is. Lets not make it up on the hoof after a high profile player is accused, lets do it now when there is no incident to report. Id like the FA to come out and say anyone guilty of using racist words will get a ban of X games regardless of context or so called mitigating circumstances. If you use these words thats the punishment, simple as that. The players will then know where they stand.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    the way the John Terry incident was handled by the FA, and the refusal of so many to even accept he had done anything wrong, makes a complete nonsense of the claim that this country is a shining light to the world in the fight against racism.
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    Pee wrote: »
    the way the John Terry incident was handled by the FA, and the refusal of so many to even accept he had done anything wrong, makes a complete nonsense of the claim that this country is a shining light to the world in the fight against racism.

    I totally agree.

    Thats why i want to see punishments laid out before we have another incident so it cant become a club v club or personality v personality issue.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    the way the John Terry incident was handled by the FA, and the refusal of so many to even accept he had done anything wrong, makes a complete nonsense of the claim that this country is a shining light to the world in the fight against racism.

    Why does the FA's handling of the John Terry case make a complete nonsense of the claim, did you not notice the ban he got ?

    In the Suarez and Terry cases you'll find that 99% of people defending them were just fans of their clubs, if it had been anyone from a different club they would have been going mad just like the rest of us.

    This country is a shining light in the battle against racism, there is nowhere better.
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