BBC Radio 2 1500m LW

Jonathan1990Jonathan1990 Posts: 1,519
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I always thought from launch BBC Radio 2 was on the same as Radio 5 Live is now but this picture of Radio 1's first day timetable shows you that it was available on VHF (FM) and on 1500m LW.

http://www.radiorewind.co.uk/images/radio1listing1967l.gif
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  • Bandspread199Bandspread199 Posts: 4,898
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  • logjamlogjam Posts: 2,842
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    The change happened in November 1978 when most BBC services changed frequencies.
  • wns_195wns_195 Posts: 13,567
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    So what was on 909 and 693?
  • kevkev Posts: 21,075
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    wns_195 wrote: »
    So what was on 909 and 693?

    http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/ukradio3.html

    Prior to 1978

    Radio 1 - 1214
    Radio 2 - 200
    Radio 3 - 647
    Radio 4 - 1052, 908, 692
    World Service - 1088

    After
    Radio 1 - 1053 & 1089
    Radio 2 - 909 & 963
    Radio 3 - 1215
    Radio 4 - 198
    World Service - 648

    The moves were due to international coordination giving all the station 9kHz spacing hence the slight changes in frequency. The MW only Radio 1 getting the best frequencies and Radio 3 getting the worse (presumably due to a higher FM uptake?)
  • Bandspread199Bandspread199 Posts: 4,898
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    And when Radio 2 went FM only, 909 and 693 had a new station, Radio 5, which had a mix of programmes, including daily serials.. It was later changed to a news and sport station and renamed Five Live!
    "BBC Radio 5 (not to be confused with BBC Radio Five Live) was a BBC radio station that operated between 1990 and 1994. It mainly carried sports, children's and educational programmes. The most notable comedy programme on this network was probably the original radio version of Room 101."
  • AngusMastAngusMast Posts: 5,153
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    Pre-1978 Radio 2 was also broadcast on 202m / 1484Khz from low power stations in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen
  • ste2010ste2010 Posts: 1,155
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    Back in 1978 The King Singers recorded a jingle for the changes to BBC Radio frequencies. I remember this being played on Radio 1 at the time. The link to it on you tube is
    https://youtu.be/EfQ5bNA6amQ
  • rmc57rmc57 Posts: 876
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    Radio 2's presence on 1500m LW went back to the dawn of broadcasting, through its days as the Light Programme to the BBC's National Service. in the 1920s and 30s.
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,648
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    kev wrote: »
    http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/ukradio3.html

    Prior to 1978

    Radio 1 - 1214
    Radio 2 - 200
    Radio 3 - 647
    Radio 4 - 1052, 908, 692
    World Service - 1088

    After
    Radio 1 - 1053 & 1089
    Radio 2 - 909 & 963
    Radio 3 - 1215
    Radio 4 - 198
    World Service - 648

    The moves were due to international coordination giving all the station 9kHz spacing hence the slight changes in frequency. The MW only Radio 1 getting the best frequencies and Radio 3 getting the worse (presumably due to a higher FM uptake?)
    Pre 1978 R4 had several opt out frequencies, some of which went to R Scotland, Wales and Ulster plus commercial radio.

    Not sure why R2 gave up 198 longwave (plus some MW relays and shipping forecast) to R4 as the revamped synchronised 909 & 963 also had good UK coverage and would have been suitable for R4?
  • Craig KellyCraig Kelly Posts: 2,657
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    hanssolo wrote: »
    Pre 1978 R4 had several opt out frequencies, some of which went to R Scotland, Wales and Ulster plus commercial radio.

    Not sure why R2 gave up 198 longwave (plus some MW relays and shipping forecast) to R4 as the revamped synchronised 909 & 963 also had good UK coverage and would have been suitable for R4?

    BBC Radio 2 was on 909 kHz/330m and 693 kHz/433m not 963 kHz.

    963 kHz was used by Radio Caroline 319 from the Mi Amigo during most of the 1970s until the Mi Amigo sinking in the North Sea off Essex in March 1980. When Radio Caroline returned in August 1983 from the Ross Revenge, Caroline was once again on "319" 963kHz.

    The BBC Home Service on 809 k/cs 371m in Scotland became the Scottish Home Service and then with the introduction of BBC Radio 4 in September 1967 became BBC Scotland Radio 4 and then when commercial station Radio Clyde on 261m/1151 kHz launched in December 1973, by January 1974, BBC Scotland Radio 4 became BBC Radio Scotland with a full-time all-day Scotland service. In November 1978 the slight rounding-up of 1 kHz then as now, BBC Radio Scotland is on 810 kHz medium wave with 100 kW plus across Scotland on 92-95 FM and DAB digital radio at 128 kbts stereo on the local commercial radio muxes in Ayrshire, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Tayside Dundee/Perth, Aberdeen and Inverness.
  • PhilipSPhilipS Posts: 825
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    rmc57 wrote: »
    Radio 2's presence on 1500m LW went back to the dawn of broadcasting, through its days as the Light Programme to the BBC's National Service. in the 1920s and 30s.

    Well, almost - they started out on 1600m from Daventry (5XX) in 1927 (only 25kw, which makes me wonder how "national" it really was). Moved a bit to around 1550m in 1929, then finally settled on 1500m when they moved to Droitwich in 1934.
  • AlanOAlanO Posts: 3,773
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    AngusMast wrote: »
    Pre-1978 Radio 2 was also broadcast on 202m / 1484Khz from low power stations in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen

    Radio 4 also has similar arrangements - the problem being the areas of overlap of the 1500m signals between Droitwich and Westerglen and Westerglen and Burghead.

    Getting them to synch is virtually impossible, hence there are ares of 'mush' where medium wave fillers are in place.
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,886
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    kev wrote: »
    http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/ukradio3.html

    Prior to 1978

    Radio 1 - 1214
    Radio 2 - 200
    Radio 3 - 647
    Radio 4 - 1052, 908, 692
    World Service - 1088

    After
    Radio 1 - 1053 & 1089
    Radio 2 - 909 & 963
    Radio 3 - 1215
    Radio 4 - 198
    World Service - 648

    The moves were due to international coordination giving all the station 9kHz spacing hence the slight changes in frequency. The MW only Radio 1 getting the best frequencies and Radio 3 getting the worse (presumably due to a higher FM uptake?)

    The World Service also had 1295 both before and after the November 1978 frequency changes when it became 1296.

    A detailed history of the BBC AM transmitter network from its inception, including the lower power relays off the main channels of the national networks, is here.

    http://www.bbceng.info/Technical%20Reviews/dev_am_tx_nw_6a.pdf
  • leslie123leslie123 Posts: 2,478
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    A good place to ask the question without starting a new thread. Is the 198 khz transmission on LW as strong as it used be. Years ago it was broadcast with an ERP of 400kw. Many people say it is not but there again there is so much more interference around these days with so many tvs, energy saving lamps, broadband routers etc. We know that the RTE Radio 1 service on 252 khz is certainly not as strong as it once was. Finally with regard to BBC World Service, in the old days there was not much sympathy for listeners in the UK who wanted to listen to the service as it was commonly stated that the BBC World Service was intended for overseas listeners and not for domestic use. For most of the day World Service was not available in the UK on MW or LW so determined listeners had to turn to Short Wave. Only during the night was it available on MW with 1500m long wave joinig in for a couple of hours whilst Radio 2 was off air.
  • Mike_1101Mike_1101 Posts: 8,012
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    I can also remember the BBC broadcasting daytime programmes in french on 809khz also used in Scotland. The signals were about the same strength in Lancashire so neither was useable.

    I believe the french language broadcasts were from Crowborough so they must have covered much of northern France and Belgoim.
  • rmc57rmc57 Posts: 876
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    PhilipS wrote: »
    Well, almost - they started out on 1600m from Daventry (5XX) in 1927 (only 25kw, which makes me wonder how "national" it really was). Moved a bit to around 1550m in 1929, then finally settled on 1500m when they moved to Droitwich in 1934.

    5XX actually started at Chelmsford in 1924, moving to Daventry the following year. Thanks though, I'd missed the fact that it was originally 1600m.
  • rmc57rmc57 Posts: 876
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    wns_195 wrote: »
    So what was on 909 and 693?

    Pre 1978 these were Radio 4 frequencies, used in various parts of the country though 909 was primarily the Brookmans Park frequency for the south east and 693 Moorside Edge for the north. The use of these frequencies dates back as far as 1950.
  • leslie123leslie123 Posts: 2,478
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    rmc57 wrote: »
    Radio 2's presence on 1500m LW went back to the dawn of broadcasting, through its days as the Light Programme to the BBC's National Service. in the 1920s and 30s.

    What I was wondering was why it was the case that if 1500m LW had virtually blanket coverage across the UK that the BBC felt the need to broadcast the Light Programme on 247m MW 1214 khz. This of course was long before the concept of Radio 1. I'm not sure what purpose 247m MW fulfilled. When Radio 1 launched it proved how inadequate 247m was as a standalone service because reception was abysmally bad in many areas. At the same time the BBC were happy to broadcast Radio 2 on 1500m so that proved that MW was not really necessary. As far as Radio 2 being available on FM/ VHF was concerned, one needs to remember FM was still in it's infancy in 1967. Many radios did not have FM, virtually no car radios had FM and furthermore for those that had FM/VHF radios, reception in many areas was non existant or very difficult quite often requiring Band 2 outdoor aerials as transmissions in those days tended to be horizontally or vertically polarized unlike today where they tend to be of either mixed or circularl polarization. Of course it was the case that when Radios 1and 2 launched,they continued to broadcast the same programmes on 247 and 1500 for around 60 to 70% of the time.
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,215
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    leslie123 wrote: »
    What I was wondering was why it was the case that if 1500m LW had virtually blanket coverage across the UK that the BBC felt the need to broadcast the Light Programme on 247m MW 1214 khz. This of course was long before the concept of Radio 1. I'm not sure what purpose 247m MW fulfilled.
    247m was used only in heavily populated areas as fill in where the 1500m signal was weak or prone to interference or screening.
    leslie123 wrote: »
    When Radio 1 launched it proved how inadequate 247m was as a standalone service because reception was abysmally bad in many areas. At the same time the BBC were happy to broadcast Radio 2 on 1500m so that proved that MW was not really necessary.

    As above, originally it was not intended to be a network as such. R2 listeners who experienced poor 1500m reception were directed to FM.
    leslie123 wrote: »
    ... transmissions in those days tended to be horizontally or vertically polarized unlike today where they tend to be of either mixed or circular polarization.
    They were only horizontally polarised originally. The network was designed for fixed table top valve radios and outdoor aerials rather than for car radios and portables with telescopic aerials that benefit from a vertical component.

    Slant and circular polarisation are much the same, they are merely examples of mixed polarisation. It's the phase relationship that makes the difference.
  • Mark CMark C Posts: 20,894
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    leslie123 wrote: »
    What I was wondering was why it was the case that if 1500m LW had virtually blanket coverage across the UK that the BBC felt the need to broadcast the Light Programme on 247m MW 1214 khz. This of course was long before the concept of Radio 1. I'm not sure what purpose 247m MW fulfilled. When Radio 1 launched it proved how inadequate 247m was as a standalone service because reception was abysmally bad in many areas. .

    The 247m allocation for the Light Prog was to cover largely urban areas where 1500m reception was poor. Notably London. When Radio 1 took over the allocation, extra transmitters were added in an attempt to make it a national network (including a high new power 247m tx at Droitwich). It wasn't terribly effective, as all of us around in the 70s will testify. It left Radio 2 with poor AM reception in the the areas that had been well served by 247m.

    Remember, when R4 look over 1500m in 1978, it wasn't long before a MW service for London was established on 720 kHz because of many complaints about poor LW reception . (It was good old 417 metres from Lots Road, vacated by LBC in 1975)
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,886
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    leslie123 wrote: »
    What I was wondering was why it was the case that if 1500m LW had virtually blanket coverage across the UK that the BBC felt the need to broadcast the Light Programme on 247m MW 1214 khz. This of course was long before the concept of Radio 1. I'm not sure what purpose 247m MW fulfilled. When Radio 1 launched it proved how inadequate 247m was as a standalone service because reception was abysmally bad in many areas. At the same time the BBC were happy to broadcast Radio 2 on 1500m so that proved that MW was not really necessary. As far as Radio 2 being available on FM/ VHF was concerned, one needs to remember FM was still in it's infancy in 1967. Many radios did not have FM, virtually no car radios had FM and furthermore for those that had FM/VHF radios, reception in many areas was non existant or very difficult quite often requiring Band 2 outdoor aerials as transmissions in those days tended to be horizontally or vertically polarized unlike today where they tend to be of either mixed or circularl polarization. Of course it was the case that when Radios 1and 2 launched,they continued to broadcast the same programmes on 247 and 1500 for around 60 to 70% of the time.

    The 247 metre Light Programme transmitters were at Brookmans Park, Burghead, Lisnagarvey, Londonderry, Moorside Edge, Plymouth, Redmoss, Redruth, Newcastle and Westerglen.

    The re-organisation which came into force in November 1978 added long wave transmitters on 200kHz at Burghead and Westerglen, they had negotiated an additional longwave frequency on 227kHz for Scottish transmitters but decided not to use it plus Radio 4 mediumwave relays at Newcastle, Londonderry, Lisnagarvey, Crystal Palace, Redruth, Enniskillen, Plymouth, Redmoss and Carlisle to get national coverage. All this because Droitwich on longwave did not give national coverage.
  • Mark CMark C Posts: 20,894
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    MikeBr wrote: »
    The 247 metre Light Programme transmitters were at Brookmans Park, Burghead, Lisnagarvey, Londonderry, Moorside Edge, Plymouth, Redmoss, Redruth, Newcastle and Westerglen.

    The re-organisation which came into force in November 1978 added long wave transmitters on 200kHz at Burghead and Westerglen, they had negotiated an additional longwave frequency on 227kHz for Scottish transmitters but decided not to use it plus Radio 4 mediumwave relays at Newcastle, Londonderry, Lisnagarvey, Crystal Palace, Redruth, Enniskillen, Plymouth, Redmoss and Carlisle to get national coverage. All this because Droitwich on longwave did not give national coverage.

    Point of order m'lord, the London R4 MW service on 720kHz started at Lots Road, before relocating to Crystal P in the 90s I think ?
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,215
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    MikeBr wrote: »
    The re-organisation which came into force in November 1978 added long wave transmitters on 200kHz at Burghead and Westerglen, they had negotiated an additional longwave frequency on 227kHz for Scottish transmitters but decided not to use it...
    Being pedantic, I believe 227kHz UK use was intended only for Westerglen, to avoid the mush areas caused by Droitwich and Burghead.
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,886
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    Mark C wrote: »
    Point of order m'lord, the London R4 MW service on 720kHz started at Lots Road, before relocating to Crystal P in the 90s I think ?

    I'd forgotten about that, checked a more recent Handbook, the MB21 transmission gallery says that Lots Road Radio 4 transmitter was switched off at 1045 on Tuesday September 25 2001
    Gerry1 wrote: »
    Being pedantic, I believe 227kHz UK use was intended only for Westerglen, to avoid the mush areas caused by Droitwich and Burghead.

    Yes, see pages 7/8 of this edition of BBC engineering, part of a section on synchronised longwave and medium wave frequency networks. Same page had a map showing day and nightime coverage of Radio One 1214.

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/archive/pdffiles/engineering/bbc_engineering_106.pdf
  • leslie123leslie123 Posts: 2,478
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    Many thanks to for the info. Strange, I did not think that reception on 1500m LW could be poor in London. I always remember listening to Radio 4 late at night quite clearly when I was on holiday in Corfu in the summer of 1990.
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