Sex selection is not selective abortion. If you have a bunch of embryos and you choose to implant on sex over the other, you aren't aborting anything. They'll stay frozen or whatever it is that happens to them.
It's one of those things I really don't have a view on. I think that being 20 weeks pregnant, finding out it's a boy or girl and then aborting it because it isn't what you want is a hell of a difference to not implanting an embryo (that may or may not be viable) of a chosen sex.
@Leanna, I'm well aware of what happens in China and India. I'm not making a comparison to wanting a daughter because I have 2 sons to thinking my sons are completely usesless and a burden.
Err - precisely!
Perhaps I should have used the word 'destruction' rather than abortion, which is incorrect in the scenario you posit. However, the reality of the more common scenario is that multiple embryo's are implanted and tested for gender at a later stage with selective abortion.
I am American, and that's why I know you are talking rot. Personally, I don't care if people are paid to be surrogates. I've had two kids, I know what's involved in preganancy and delivery.
As an American you will know that in some states surragacy agreements are illegal, in some states agreements are legal but there are no surrogacy laws, in some states there are laws but little enforcement.
In one state the surrogate mother is entitled to custody and if married HER husband is regarded as the father.
Err - precisely!
Perhaps I should have used the word 'destruction' rather than abortion, which is incorrect in the scenario you posit. However, the reality of the more common scenario is that multiple embryo's are implanted and tested for gender at a later stage with selective abortion.[/QUOTE]
In what, an alternate reality? You really don't know what you are talking about. Even when multiple embryos are implanted with a hope for at least one to lead to a viable pregnancy, if all lets say, 4 embryos implant and the doctor suggests reduction, there is no way to tell which ones are male and female. Furthermore, no doctor who wants to keep his or her license would abort a fetus based on sex-- which is why so many Chinese and Indian couples go back to those respective places to have it done.
You are making some assumptions here. You are assuming the surrogate was exploited. We don't know her financial state. But she chose to do it. It's not like she was raped. We also don't know what kind of father Elton will be. It's unfair for us to assume he would be a bad one.
We don't (currently!) know anything about the mother but we can make an educated guess that she has 'chosen' to do this for money, not least because statistically the vast majority of women surrogates in the United States are poor and uneducated. I do not deny that she may have 'chosen' the arrangement - just as, for example, poor people in the Third World 'choose' to sell organs to rich Westerners. You can argue that no one forces them to hand over a kidney but in reality financial inequality between the buyer and seller conditions how 'free' the choice is.
Err - precisely!
Perhaps I should have used the word 'destruction' rather than abortion, which is incorrect in the scenario you posit. However, the reality of the more common scenario is that multiple embryo's are implanted and tested for gender at a later stage with selective abortion.[/QUOTE]
In what, an alternate reality? You really don't know what you are talking about. Even when multiple embryos are implanted with a hope for at least one to lead to a viable pregnancy, if all lets say, 4 embryos implant and the doctor suggests reduction, there is no way to tell which ones are male and female. Furthermore, no doctor who wants to keep his or her license would abort a fetus based on sex-- which is why so many Chinese and Indian couples go back to those respective places to have it done.
We don't (currently!) know anything about the mother but we can make an educated guess that she has 'chosen' to do this for money, not least because statistically the vast majority of women surrogates in the United States are poor and uneducated. I do not deny that she may have 'chosen' the arrangement - just as, for example, poor people in the Third World 'choose' to sell organs to rich Westerners. You can argue that no one forces them to hand over a kidney but in reality financial inequality between the buyer and seller conditions how 'free' the choice is.
What is the statistical evidence that most surrogates are poor and undeducated? Actually, when a lot of people are looking for egg donors in the states, women that are Ivy League educated are much more desired than Jessie-Mae Hillbilly from Bumhole, Arkansas.
Yes. Seeing as I have been pregnant twice, been through all that I need to go through, at the stage of pregnacy where they can tell what's what and who's who, they do NOT perform reductions.
What is the statistical evidence that most surrogates are poor and undeducated? Actually, when a lot of people are looking for egg donors in the states, women that are Ivy League educated are much more desired than Jessie-Mae Hillbilly from Bumhole, Arkansas.
You are confusing egg donation with surrogacy. Most surrogates are gestational surrogates in the US (ie not the egg donor) for good legal reasons post the Baby M case. If you are genuinely interested in the stats you can go to various State data bases for a small fee. The US experience up to about 2006 was widely debated and published in the UK during our debates into the Fertilisation and Embryology legislation and is available for eg via Hansard.
What is the statistical evidence that most surrogates are poor and undeducated? Actually, when a lot of people are looking for egg donors in the states, women that are Ivy League educated are much more desired than Jessie-Mae Hillbilly from Bumhole, Arkansas.
Quite.
And also - not that it matters one iota either way - how impossible is it that someone Elton or David knows and/or has known for a number of years, and trusts, has agreed to have a child for them? Since baseless and in some cases ignorant and bigoted assumptions are the order of the day on here, that's not an unlikely scenario either. In fact, I'd suggest it's a very probable one.
And also - not that it matters one iota either way - how impossible is it that someone Elton or David knows and/or has known for a number of years, and trusts, has agreed to have a child for them? Since baseless and in some cases ignorant and bigoted assumptions are the order of the day on here, that's not an unlikely scenario either. In fact, I'd suggest it's a very probable one.
Exactly. People are making wild accusations about something they don't approve of. I think it's great that a child has been born to a couple that will love and cherish him. It's more likely, as you say, that the woman involved was not some random member of the public but a person who probably wanted to help out. There are women who feel that acting as surrogate is an altruistic way of helping a couple who cannot have children to have them.
@ missfrankiecat, I am not confusing egg donation with surrgogacy. My point was that people who are willing to pay for such a service are likely not to get just any old asshole to do it. I'm not interested in the searching for the stats-- it's on you to prove what you say is true. I was alive and well and in the States when the Baby M case happened. That woman was a lunatic in my opinion.
Oh and, the government here is looking at surrogates being paid to be surrogates, not just medical expenses. I don't see what the problem is.
That's what I thought, poor little blighter, yet another celeb kid dumped with a horrific name! I would say congratulations, but IMO, Elton's a bit old to be having a baby - 62, is he? Too old for anyone to have a new baby. I wonder if he has any idea what he's letting himself in for.
That's what I thought, poor little blighter, yet another celeb kid dumped with a horrific name! I would say congratulations, but IMO, Elton's a bit old to be having a baby - 62, is he? Too old for anyone to have a new baby. I wonder if he has any idea what he's letting himself in for.
He'll be fine. Some how I don't think he'll be doing the 3am feed.
He'll be fine. Some how I don't think he'll be doing the 3am feed.
Elton does have temper tantrums, will there ever be a point where he says enough is enough and storms off saying either he goes or I go?
Some people are going to ask/suggest Elton has bought the baby as a present to his partner?
If the emotional desire for a baby is so strong that someone is prepared to pay for one, then some people will find it difficult to understand how a mother could give or sell their child away?
The mother may be a friend of Elton's but he could not guarantee she would not over 9 months form an extremely emotional bond with the child?
He'll be fine. Some how I don't think he'll be doing the 3am feed.
He might do it sometimes. It all depends on how hands-on he wants to be. Someone has to get up all hours of the night and feed a new baby or sit with him when he keeps crying and get him back to sleep. I don't know how old David Furnish is (40s??) so maybe he'll do it more, but even so. Being in your 30s and having a new-born is tiring enough!
this debate probably didnt occur when Sarah Jessica Parker used a surrogate?
as someone who had extensive fertility treatement to have my child - who is the centre of my universe - I dont think anyone is in a place to really judge unless they know the inner feelings of EJ and DF
Some of you people astound me with your cruel judgements!
Elton John and his partner do a hell of a lot for charity, raising millions each year, they also work very very hard at their careers and have done for decades, by all accounts they have a very happy relationship and they have several god children which they treat very well.
In addition to that Elton John has been credited with helping other celebrities in their times of need, he helped Robbie Williams recover from his bouts of rehab and offered Lily Allen a private haven to recover from her terrible miscarriage etc....
Whatever you people think of homosexuals or Elton's age, you cannot deny he appears to be a very decent man with the financial ability to look after this child very well and give him a brilliant upbringing full of love, isnt that the most important thing?
Homosexuality isn't a choice - it is who you are and pre-determined before birth. Homosexuals have just the same desire to be parents as anyone else and they should have the same rights to become parents if they can provide a loving home - which I do not doubt Elton and David will.
I agree in a way, but why should we always get what we want, even if it isn't naturally possible? If you only are attracted to the same sex, should you not miss out on passing your genes on? Why not adopt?
I agree in a way, but why should we always get what we want, even if it isn't naturally possible? If you only are attracted to the same sex, should you not miss out on passing your genes on? Why not adopt?
Some of you people astound me with your cruel judgements!
Elton John and his partner do a hell of a lot for charity, raising millions each year, they also work very very hard at their careers and have done for decades, by all accounts they have a very happy relationship and they have several god children which they treat very well.
In addition to that Elton John has been credited with helping other celebrities in their times of need, he helped Robbie Williams recover from his bouts of rehab and offered Lily Allen a private haven to recover from her terrible miscarriage etc....
Whatever you people think of homosexuals or Elton's age, you cannot deny he appears to be a very decent man with the financial ability to look after this child very well and give him a brilliant upbringing full of love, isnt that the most important thing?
Hear, hear.
Also to all those who say that he's a diva, or party animal etc, I've seen plenty of friends who upon having kids have forsaken partying or calmed their behaviour in order to be better parents to their kids. Why assume Elton is too selfish for family life?
He might do it sometimes. It all depends on how hands-on he wants to be. Someone has to get up all hours of the night and feed a new baby or sit with him when he keeps crying and get him back to sleep. I don't know how old David Furnish is (40s??) so maybe he'll do it more, but even so. Being in your 30s and having a new-born is tiring enough!
Oh, they've got to make a TV reality show of Elton feeding the baby at 3am, it could be a hoot.
Also to all those who say that he's a diva, or party animal etc, I've seen plenty of friends who upon having kids have forsaken partying or calmed their behaviour in order to be better parents to their kids. Why assume Elton is too selfish for family life?
Oh come on lighten up...isn't this a guy who flew in somewhere to do a show got miffed and took the plane home?
He made a documentry displaying his rants at a fan who waved at him and yelling at assistants during a photoshoot, even he later found it funny.
In October of this year, 6 months into the surragacy birth, he told The Telegraph, following the 'diva' documentry he changed his ways and calmed down.
The most important thing for a child is to have a loving family. I think Elton and David will make wonderful parents because they clearly love one another and it all provides for a stable environment. With the amount of help they will receive along with the friends they have this child is very lucky IMO.
I don't get the criticism of the name either. Zachary is a perfectly normal name as far as I'm concerned and a million miles better than *some* celeb offspring
I would like to point out that despite this baby being born on Christmas day and the mother carrying it for nine months previously and probably going through many months of psycological screen tests for suitability and IVF to be impregnated, this is the first I've heard that they were even trying to have a baby :eek:
Have all the people condeming them for going to America and automatically thinking it must be because they are up to something dodgy, considered for one second that they did it for privacy reasons? They are a high profile UK couple and doing it in America would have been a lot more secure. If the media got even one sniff of this, not only would they have been all over Elton and David like a rash, they would've hounded the surrogate and made her pregnancy very distressing, which could have harmed both her and the child. I think the first clue that they are going to be good parents, is that they have made sure to protect the mother and child from the word go.
As to the poster who thinks that surrogates in America are by and large poor and uneducated, what a load of rubbish. Have a read of This Site and open your mind. A woman who's only doing it for the money will not be wanted, as she can't be trusted to take proper care during her pregnancy and she potentially will keep blackmailing the couple for more and more money. Do you really think a celeb couple like Elton and David are going to risk some money grabber ruining their parenthood by going to the media and making a fortune?
Surrogates are not incompetent morons who are incapable of making clear decisions for themselves. Surrogates are usually mothers who want to share the joy of parenthood with others. Mothers are more desireable as surrogates because they've been through pregnancy and know what to expect and there is also less chance of them confusing the baby as their own. They want women who are emotionally intelligent, who understand the emotional and legal implications of carrying a child to term, only to give it up at the end. Before the IVF process begins, there are many meetings with the surrogate and couple to make sure they sort out all issues. Some surrogates back out because they don't think the couple will make suitable parents.
As to Elton "buying" a child, it's made out to be as easy as breezing into a store in America, walking up and down the isles, picking out what he wants, paying for it at the checkout and leaving. For all we know, they went through the adoption process here and abroad and got rejected. A massive committment has to be made, legally, financially and emotionally and I don't think they went into it with their eyes closed.
Anyhoo's, whatever their reasons, they now have a healthy baby boy and I wish them and the child all the best at this, the season of good will to all
Comments
Err - precisely!
Perhaps I should have used the word 'destruction' rather than abortion, which is incorrect in the scenario you posit. However, the reality of the more common scenario is that multiple embryo's are implanted and tested for gender at a later stage with selective abortion.
As an American you will know that in some states surragacy agreements are illegal, in some states agreements are legal but there are no surrogacy laws, in some states there are laws but little enforcement.
In one state the surrogate mother is entitled to custody and if married HER husband is regarded as the father.
We don't (currently!) know anything about the mother but we can make an educated guess that she has 'chosen' to do this for money, not least because statistically the vast majority of women surrogates in the United States are poor and uneducated. I do not deny that she may have 'chosen' the arrangement - just as, for example, poor people in the Third World 'choose' to sell organs to rich Westerners. You can argue that no one forces them to hand over a kidney but in reality financial inequality between the buyer and seller conditions how 'free' the choice is.
What is the statistical evidence that most surrogates are poor and undeducated? Actually, when a lot of people are looking for egg donors in the states, women that are Ivy League educated are much more desired than Jessie-Mae Hillbilly from Bumhole, Arkansas.
You are confusing egg donation with surrogacy. Most surrogates are gestational surrogates in the US (ie not the egg donor) for good legal reasons post the Baby M case. If you are genuinely interested in the stats you can go to various State data bases for a small fee. The US experience up to about 2006 was widely debated and published in the UK during our debates into the Fertilisation and Embryology legislation and is available for eg via Hansard.
And also - not that it matters one iota either way - how impossible is it that someone Elton or David knows and/or has known for a number of years, and trusts, has agreed to have a child for them? Since baseless and in some cases ignorant and bigoted assumptions are the order of the day on here, that's not an unlikely scenario either. In fact, I'd suggest it's a very probable one.
Exactly. People are making wild accusations about something they don't approve of. I think it's great that a child has been born to a couple that will love and cherish him. It's more likely, as you say, that the woman involved was not some random member of the public but a person who probably wanted to help out. There are women who feel that acting as surrogate is an altruistic way of helping a couple who cannot have children to have them.
@ missfrankiecat, I am not confusing egg donation with surrgogacy. My point was that people who are willing to pay for such a service are likely not to get just any old asshole to do it. I'm not interested in the searching for the stats-- it's on you to prove what you say is true. I was alive and well and in the States when the Baby M case happened. That woman was a lunatic in my opinion.
Oh and, the government here is looking at surrogates being paid to be surrogates, not just medical expenses. I don't see what the problem is.
That's what I thought, poor little blighter, yet another celeb kid dumped with a horrific name! I would say congratulations, but IMO, Elton's a bit old to be having a baby - 62, is he? Too old for anyone to have a new baby. I wonder if he has any idea what he's letting himself in for.
He'll be fine. Some how I don't think he'll be doing the 3am feed.
Elton does have temper tantrums, will there ever be a point where he says enough is enough and storms off saying either he goes or I go?
Some people are going to ask/suggest Elton has bought the baby as a present to his partner?
If the emotional desire for a baby is so strong that someone is prepared to pay for one, then some people will find it difficult to understand how a mother could give or sell their child away?
The mother may be a friend of Elton's but he could not guarantee she would not over 9 months form an extremely emotional bond with the child?
He might do it sometimes. It all depends on how hands-on he wants to be. Someone has to get up all hours of the night and feed a new baby or sit with him when he keeps crying and get him back to sleep. I don't know how old David Furnish is (40s??) so maybe he'll do it more, but even so. Being in your 30s and having a new-born is tiring enough!
as someone who had extensive fertility treatement to have my child - who is the centre of my universe - I dont think anyone is in a place to really judge unless they know the inner feelings of EJ and DF
Elton John and his partner do a hell of a lot for charity, raising millions each year, they also work very very hard at their careers and have done for decades, by all accounts they have a very happy relationship and they have several god children which they treat very well.
In addition to that Elton John has been credited with helping other celebrities in their times of need, he helped Robbie Williams recover from his bouts of rehab and offered Lily Allen a private haven to recover from her terrible miscarriage etc....
Whatever you people think of homosexuals or Elton's age, you cannot deny he appears to be a very decent man with the financial ability to look after this child very well and give him a brilliant upbringing full of love, isnt that the most important thing?
I agree in a way, but why should we always get what we want, even if it isn't naturally possible? If you only are attracted to the same sex, should you not miss out on passing your genes on? Why not adopt?
This thread gets more depressing by the hour.
Hear, hear.
Also to all those who say that he's a diva, or party animal etc, I've seen plenty of friends who upon having kids have forsaken partying or calmed their behaviour in order to be better parents to their kids. Why assume Elton is too selfish for family life?
Oh, they've got to make a TV reality show of Elton feeding the baby at 3am, it could be a hoot.
Oh come on lighten up...isn't this a guy who flew in somewhere to do a show got miffed and took the plane home?
He made a documentry displaying his rants at a fan who waved at him and yelling at assistants during a photoshoot, even he later found it funny.
In October of this year, 6 months into the surragacy birth, he told The Telegraph, following the 'diva' documentry he changed his ways and calmed down.
Anyway, congrats to them!
I don't get the criticism of the name either.
Have all the people condeming them for going to America and automatically thinking it must be because they are up to something dodgy, considered for one second that they did it for privacy reasons? They are a high profile UK couple and doing it in America would have been a lot more secure. If the media got even one sniff of this, not only would they have been all over Elton and David like a rash, they would've hounded the surrogate and made her pregnancy very distressing, which could have harmed both her and the child. I think the first clue that they are going to be good parents, is that they have made sure to protect the mother and child from the word go.
As to the poster who thinks that surrogates in America are by and large poor and uneducated, what a load of rubbish. Have a read of This Site and open your mind. A woman who's only doing it for the money will not be wanted, as she can't be trusted to take proper care during her pregnancy and she potentially will keep blackmailing the couple for more and more money. Do you really think a celeb couple like Elton and David are going to risk some money grabber ruining their parenthood by going to the media and making a fortune?
Surrogates are not incompetent morons who are incapable of making clear decisions for themselves. Surrogates are usually mothers who want to share the joy of parenthood with others. Mothers are more desireable as surrogates because they've been through pregnancy and know what to expect and there is also less chance of them confusing the baby as their own. They want women who are emotionally intelligent, who understand the emotional and legal implications of carrying a child to term, only to give it up at the end. Before the IVF process begins, there are many meetings with the surrogate and couple to make sure they sort out all issues. Some surrogates back out because they don't think the couple will make suitable parents.
As to Elton "buying" a child, it's made out to be as easy as breezing into a store in America, walking up and down the isles, picking out what he wants, paying for it at the checkout and leaving. For all we know, they went through the adoption process here and abroad and got rejected. A massive committment has to be made, legally, financially and emotionally and I don't think they went into it with their eyes closed.
Anyhoo's, whatever their reasons, they now have a healthy baby boy and I wish them and the child all the best at this, the season of good will to all