Where? In this thread? I for one don't automatically assume that.
Yeah it was said in the thread , there have been a few references to extremism , to be fair and explanations of what that means, and a couple of other mention specifically terrorism . You yourself mentioned "terrorists of this faith " but I do accept you've differentiated between those wearing it and actual terrorists . Everything's about personal opinion but I struggle to reconcile why terrorism or extremism seem such popular phrases In a thread about women wearing the veil . By the way I'm not suggesting that your post equates it with terrorism and flagpole states his use of extremism isn't related to terrorism but my point stand as the word is mentioned a number if times in the thread . BD doesn't talk for himself but states some may interpret it as support for terrorism .
For me wearing the veil isn't something I associate with extremism or terrorism and I also don't associate anyone with a skinhead as a supporter of the far right. I know if trivial but my haircut for over a decade gave many others just that impression and in the past my accent frequently led to out of town security guards following my round shops or jokes about being 'a robber ' . Often life seems about perceptions rather than what something actually indicates . If that's the case whose the problem actually with ?
it certainly puts someone on the outer edge of islam. which could be termed the extreme. possibly the issue is you think extremism is the same as terrorist.
Some people view it as a political statement, some people view it as a support of terrorism and therefore abusive and intimidatory. I personally see it as used in this way on specific occasions. Not always and not by all but that is the nature of symbolism it means different things to different people. If a face covering is acceptable for some then it should be acceptable for all but we know it is not. A KKK hood worn for religious reasons would ensure requests by police to remove it or face arrest.
On a seperate point but as regards your point below We'll have to disagree because I felt I replied to a specific post which referenced extremism .
Er, yes it was actually. You asked the question, and I answered it. Do I think all those that wear the veil/niquab are terrorists? No, of course not. Do I think it is extreme? Yes, I do.
All this fuss over a flippin' veil that doesn't add up to a safer or more inclusive society.
You've gotta admit a multi-cultural society minus a barrier preventing two members from different backgrounds from smiling at each other has a better chance of working out don't you?
You've gotta admit a multi-cultural society minus a barrier preventing two members from different backgrounds from smiling at each other has a better chance of working out don't you?
Personally I agree with the concept but when as a society you criminalise certain people's interpretation of their religion that's unlikely to have a inclusive result and sadly it seems possible many posters are voting yes in the poll for the kind of inclusive, all embracing, diverse society you seem to desire.
Indeed some women are forced to wear them by overbearing husbands, many more choose to wear them, and a few wear them in defiance of their husbands who would prefer them not to wear them.
The almost inevitable result of any ban for those who are forced to wear them would be that their husbands would NEVER allow them to leave the house, I am sure these women would be delighted at such 'liberation'
I don't think anyone knows how many make a free choice and how many are forced, so you can't really say that many do this and a few do that etc.
That aside, very similar things were said by some when the first French ban came in, that girls and women wouldn't be allowed to leave home without their headscarves (in the instances where the ban had an effect). But that's not what happened. Muslim men are as pragmatic as anyone else it seems and I'm sure there won't be many keeping their wives at home if it means that they suddenly have to take the kids to school, shop, run errands and so on.
Personally I agree with the concept but when as a society you criminalise certain people's interpretation of their religion that's unlikely to have a inclusive result and sadly it seems possible many posters are voting yes in the poll for the kind of inclusive, all embracing, diverse society you seem to desire.
I get what you're saying but I'm not convinced that a ban would have much of a negative impact. I'd much prefer folk chose not to wear the veil for themselves but if push came to shove I reckon a ban would be worth the risk because I reckon there are more potential positives that could come of it than negatives.
Like the saying goes, you can't build a bridge without first chopping down a few trees
Yeah it was said in the thread , there have been a few references to extremism , to be fair and explanations of what that means, and a couple of other mention specifically terrorism . You yourself mentioned "terrorists of this faith " but I do accept you've differentiated between those wearing it and actual terrorists . Everything's about personal opinion but I struggle to reconcile why terrorism or extremism seem such popular phrases In a thread about women wearing the veil . By the way I'm not suggesting that your post equates it with terrorism and flagpole states his use of extremism isn't related to terrorism but my point stand as the word is mentioned a number if times in the thread . BD doesn't talk for himself but states some may interpret it as support for terrorism .
For me wearing the veil isn't something I associate with extremism or terrorism and I also don't associate anyone with a skinhead as a supporter of the far right. I know if trivial but my haircut for over a decade gave many others just that impression and in the past my accent frequently led to out of town security guards following my round shops or jokes about being 'a robber ' . Often life seems about perceptions rather than what something actually indicates . If that's the case whose the problem actually with ?
On a seperate point but as regards your point below We'll have to disagree because I felt I replied to a specific post which referenced extremism .
But you can wear a helmet , a hood , a snood can't you ? The kkk hood is specific is associated with an offensive and racist organisation , so can we compare a veil and a motorcycle helmet or a snood ?
It must be me but , in the majority of cases , I just can't see the massive issue with a woman wearing the veil . In this thread it's been compared to a KKK hood , I've been asked am I comfortable with it and it's viewed as supporting terrorism .
Well that is the issue. The KKK hood is viewed by others, not necessarily by those wearing it, as an offensive symbol and is therefore open to restrictions. The Veil is viewed by some as an offensive symbol therefore in the name of equality it should be subject to the same restrictions that a KKK hood would be. I repeat, at Choudary's demonstrations the women almost always wear veils so it is associated with extreme, intolerant and dangerous manifestations of Islam.
I get what you're saying but I'm not convinced that a ban would have much of a negative impact. I'd much prefer folk chose not to wear the veil for themselves but if push came to shove I reckon a ban would be worth the risk because I reckon there are more potential positives that could come of it than negatives.
Like the saying goes, you can't build a bridge without first chopping down a few trees
Just read a US article online from 2012 I've no idea if it's accurate but if it is then what's really the point of introducing a divisive piece of legistlation ?
Since the law went into effect in France, 425 women wearing full-face veils have been fined up to 150 euros ($188) each and 66 others have received warnings, said Pierre-Henry Brandet, spokesman for the Interior Ministry. But even the police concede that they rarely enforce it, having no desire to further increase tensions. In “the great majority of cases,” Mr. Brandet said, women lift their veils when the police ask in what he called “a serene and respectful way on both sides.” Some women who wear the niqab say that for the most part the police know them and leave them alone.
The reality to your analogy is though it doesn't really effect you does it , effectively they could deforest an entire region but have no impact on you but to some people those trees are hugely important and I can't for the life of me how imposing legistlation helps inclusivity .
My apologies for kicking the arse out of the analogy by the way .
Well that is the issue. The KKK hood is viewed by others, not necessarily by those wearing it, as an offensive symbol and is therefore open to restrictions. The Veil is viewed by some as an offensive symbol therefore in the name of equality it should be subject to the same restrictions that a KKK hood would be. I repeat, at Choudary's demonstrations the women almost always wear veils so it is associated with extreme, intolerant and dangerous manifestations of Islam.
So I'll repeat it to you find it offensive ? I might do another poll and see who thinks it is offensive , you seem pretty articulate do ou seriously believe a kkk hood (in a predominately black area you actually specified I think ) and a veil are similar in the reactions they cause ?
I'll through back at you that at bnp or EDL marches a lot of blokes have skinheads can we read too much into that ? The union flag was almost exclusively associated with the far right in the 70's & 80's but we didn't ban that thank god.
I don't like the burkha or the veil. Modesty is a two way thing. IMO its not what you see that is the problem, its the thoughts in one's head are the problem. One could be religious, cover themselves head to foot but ultimately it is what goes on in their mind is important.
I suggest you read what I actually wrote, because I at no point suggested anything like the fiction you have created,
You did not write it but that is what the equality of the situation should allow. We know however that it would not. It is not fiction, it is equality. A Muslim asking to be viewed only by a Muslim is effectively an insulting discrimination just as a white man insisting he is only viewed/served by a white man.
So I'll repeat it to you find it offensive ? I might do another poll and see who thinks it is offensive , you seem pretty articulate do ou seriously believe a kkk hood (in a predominately black area you actually specified I think ) and a veil are similar in the reactions they cause ?
I'll through back at you that at bnp or EDL marches a lot of blokes have skinheads can we read too much into that ? The union flag was almost exclusively associated with the far right in the 70's & 80's but we didn't ban that thank god.
Of course I find it offensive because I associate it with support of many things I personally find offensive, I repeat however that I do not think everyone wears it for those reasons.
People were offended by the Union flag and in some instances it was removed by request of the police because of its possible effect on others. The cross of St George has been subject to requests (instructions) for removal as have porcelain pigs from private windows. Since we are in an age of ridiculous offence and equality we may as well be equal and have our taking of offence taken seriously. Things can only become more ridiculous and i have no doubt they will.
Of course I find it offensive because I associate it with support of many things I personally find offensive, I repeat however that I do not think everyone wears it for those reasons.
People were offended by the Union flag and in some instances it was removed by request of the police because of its possible effect on others. The cross of St George has been subject to requests (instructions) for removal as have porcelain pigs from private windows. Since we are in an age of ridiculous offence and equality we may as well be equal and have our taking of offence taken seriously. Things can only become more ridiculous and i have no doubt they will.
"Of course" in that I should have know that's how you felt from your post or because you thinks a lot of people ind it offensive ? I'm personally staggered anyone could find a woman wearing a veil offensive but it shows how different people perceive things differently I suppose.
I know we see 'reports' of the cross of st George bring removed or the Christmas being banned and the like but does that happen I mean where that's the actual story ? Because I'll support anyone fighting against that , I can assume the legistlation isn't informed in too many places I've been because I see a host of flags especially during , Englands brief visit , to the world cup.
EDIT : so far it's suggested it's offensive , linked to extremism , a possible indicator of terrorist sympathies , a cause of rickets , makes people feel uncomfortable in queues, prevents acceptance and to liberate females . Pretty diverse list , maybe it is truly evil hey ?
Comments
But you haven't really challenged them at all. It's a token gesture.
Yeah it was said in the thread , there have been a few references to extremism , to be fair and explanations of what that means, and a couple of other mention specifically terrorism . You yourself mentioned "terrorists of this faith " but I do accept you've differentiated between those wearing it and actual terrorists . Everything's about personal opinion but I struggle to reconcile why terrorism or extremism seem such popular phrases In a thread about women wearing the veil . By the way I'm not suggesting that your post equates it with terrorism and flagpole states his use of extremism isn't related to terrorism but my point stand as the word is mentioned a number if times in the thread . BD doesn't talk for himself but states some may interpret it as support for terrorism .
For me wearing the veil isn't something I associate with extremism or terrorism and I also don't associate anyone with a skinhead as a supporter of the far right. I know if trivial but my haircut for over a decade gave many others just that impression and in the past my accent frequently led to out of town security guards following my round shops or jokes about being 'a robber ' . Often life seems about perceptions rather than what something actually indicates . If that's the case whose the problem actually with ?
On a seperate point but as regards your point below We'll have to disagree because I felt I replied to a specific post which referenced extremism .
when someone has decided to blow themselves up in a crowded area, the last thing on their mind is to hide their face behind a veil.
Why not?
I would say that is the first thing on their minds.. to look as 'normal' and westernized as possible.
I'd have thought that even a token gesture is better than none at all.
so, because they dressed like western heathens, i take it they don't get their 72 virgins in paradise.:D
that's true. but what of it?
I've heard that burglars don't wear stripey tops, a dick turpin mask and carry bags with the word SWAG on it either.
rolly eyes, rolly eyes...wherefore art thou rolly eyes
All this fuss over a flippin' veil that doesn't add up to a safer or more inclusive society.
You've gotta admit a multi-cultural society minus a barrier preventing two members from different backgrounds from smiling at each other has a better chance of working out don't you?
Personally I agree with the concept but when as a society you criminalise certain people's interpretation of their religion that's unlikely to have a inclusive result and sadly it seems possible many posters are voting yes in the poll for the kind of inclusive, all embracing, diverse society you seem to desire.
I don't think anyone knows how many make a free choice and how many are forced, so you can't really say that many do this and a few do that etc.
That aside, very similar things were said by some when the first French ban came in, that girls and women wouldn't be allowed to leave home without their headscarves (in the instances where the ban had an effect). But that's not what happened. Muslim men are as pragmatic as anyone else it seems and I'm sure there won't be many keeping their wives at home if it means that they suddenly have to take the kids to school, shop, run errands and so on.
I get what you're saying but I'm not convinced that a ban would have much of a negative impact. I'd much prefer folk chose not to wear the veil for themselves but if push came to shove I reckon a ban would be worth the risk because I reckon there are more potential positives that could come of it than negatives.
Like the saying goes, you can't build a bridge without first chopping down a few trees
And, having checked, you are right. Apolgogies.
Well that is the issue. The KKK hood is viewed by others, not necessarily by those wearing it, as an offensive symbol and is therefore open to restrictions. The Veil is viewed by some as an offensive symbol therefore in the name of equality it should be subject to the same restrictions that a KKK hood would be. I repeat, at Choudary's demonstrations the women almost always wear veils so it is associated with extreme, intolerant and dangerous manifestations of Islam.
Just read a US article online from 2012 I've no idea if it's accurate but if it is then what's really the point of introducing a divisive piece of legistlation ?
The reality to your analogy is though it doesn't really effect you does it , effectively they could deforest an entire region but have no impact on you but to some people those trees are hugely important and I can't for the life of me how imposing legistlation helps inclusivity .
My apologies for kicking the arse out of the analogy by the way .
So I'll repeat it to you find it offensive ? I might do another poll and see who thinks it is offensive , you seem pretty articulate do ou seriously believe a kkk hood (in a predominately black area you actually specified I think ) and a veil are similar in the reactions they cause ?
I'll through back at you that at bnp or EDL marches a lot of blokes have skinheads can we read too much into that ? The union flag was almost exclusively associated with the far right in the 70's & 80's but we didn't ban that thank god.
The burkha and veil have seen a rise in rickets in some borough. Vitamin D is really important for the bones. I certainly wouldn't want to put my kids through vitamin D deficiency. Even sunblock is not as good as it is made out to be. Factor 15 is good enough. I certainly don't want to see a return to the Victorian era.
http://www.teachnursery.com/a-unique-child/view/vitamin-d
http://www.secularism.org.uk/burka-wearingpromptsthereturnofi.html
You did not write it but that is what the equality of the situation should allow. We know however that it would not. It is not fiction, it is equality. A Muslim asking to be viewed only by a Muslim is effectively an insulting discrimination just as a white man insisting he is only viewed/served by a white man.
Feel free to kick away - just don't go all Luis Suarez on me arse
You should be safe the Clue is in the 'Scouse' part of the name mate not a big Suarez fan !!!
If it wasn't for the fact I'm totally bald I think I must be blonde cuz that's one clue I aint getting
Nevermind.
Anyhows, catch yer laters I'm off out to do some work
Of course I find it offensive because I associate it with support of many things I personally find offensive, I repeat however that I do not think everyone wears it for those reasons.
People were offended by the Union flag and in some instances it was removed by request of the police because of its possible effect on others. The cross of St George has been subject to requests (instructions) for removal as have porcelain pigs from private windows. Since we are in an age of ridiculous offence and equality we may as well be equal and have our taking of offence taken seriously. Things can only become more ridiculous and i have no doubt they will.
"Of course" in that I should have know that's how you felt from your post or because you thinks a lot of people ind it offensive ? I'm personally staggered anyone could find a woman wearing a veil offensive but it shows how different people perceive things differently I suppose.
I know we see 'reports' of the cross of st George bring removed or the Christmas being banned and the like but does that happen I mean where that's the actual story ? Because I'll support anyone fighting against that , I can assume the legistlation isn't informed in too many places I've been because I see a host of flags especially during , Englands brief visit , to the world cup.
EDIT : so far it's suggested it's offensive , linked to extremism , a possible indicator of terrorist sympathies , a cause of rickets , makes people feel uncomfortable in queues, prevents acceptance and to liberate females . Pretty diverse list , maybe it is truly evil hey ?