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ECHR Upholds French Veil and Niqab Ban
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28106900
Interesting ruling this. i would have bet pound to a penny that they would have gone the other way.
Will this increase calls for it to happen here? Should it happen here?
Interesting ruling this. i would have bet pound to a penny that they would have gone the other way.
Will this increase calls for it to happen here? Should it happen here?
Should the UK ban full face coverings? 123 votes
Yes
80%
99 votes
No
17%
22 votes
Don't know
1%
2 votes
0
Comments
As for any possibility of it happening here, quite simply it wouldn't. There would be too much trouble. Rioting on the streets etc.
The court in this instance has not interpreted a section of the convention (BIB) to uphold the claim which is rather inexplicable as it has done this in other cases with no less justification. It appears it has sided with the 'certain restrictions' and the view that afaik Islam doesn't mandate its wearing.
which is somewhat against the recent trend. I do think though they made the right decision.
ETA:
The court ruled that the ban "was not expressly based on the religious connotation of the clothing in question but solely on the fact that it concealed the face".
A court statement said the ruling also "took into account the state's submission that the face played a significant role in social interaction.
"The Court was also able to understand the view that individuals might not wish to see, in places open to all, practices or attitudes which would fundamentally call into question the possibility of open interpersonal relationships, which, by virtue of an established consensus, formed an indispensable element of community life within the society in question."
I agree that it's divisive and should be strongly discouraged, but am surprised that its divisiveness has been accepted as an argument for banning it, overriding the right to freedom of expression.
I would not like us to follow the French example.
Tbh I'm rather in two minds on this one. I don't like people wandering around covered head to foot with only their eyes visible but on the other hand if they choose to then I'm not entirely convinced the state should pass a law saying they can't. I can think of other instances when I would prefer some people not to wearing what they are, is that a reason to ban it?
This decision by the ECtHR makes them look a tad contrary in their rulings and raises the issue they are not consistent or unbiased and political.
the argument is in a sense quite simple. it just comes down to a judgement.
It's beyond this, it's deeply insulting.
One simply has to examine why it's worn to understand this. It's not simply an expression of religeous belief on the part of the wearer, it implies and expresses opinions on the mindset and morals of others.
However there are instances when it must not be worn as being able to see the person's face is important and the wearer must expect to remove it, appearing in court being an obvious example.
there are a few good reasons. you can demonstrate one to for yourself by walking round in a balaclava. possibly pay a visit to your bank.
there have certainly been cases of crimes committed by people in niqabs. people that have fled by wearing a niqab.
the argument that it is socially divisive is a strong one. social cohesion is certainly not something that can be waved away.
possibly the strongest argument is that it is not compatible with our way of life. we do not believe that women should be covered, we do not believe in subjugating them. and do not have to accept something that does that.
and anecdotally it seems some of the women wearing them would like an excuse not to.
i see the arguments about freedom of expression and am sympathetic to them, but on balance i do not judge that to be the winning card. just like the ECHR.
How do you feel about girls in school wearing them?
Nobody has ever been convicted of the offence of wearing a balaclava though many will have been wearing one while committing robbery which is the offence. The same can be said of people wearing a crash helmet. There are many instances with regard to officialdom and formal situations when wearing something that covers the entire face apart from the eyes is unacceptable and that imo includes a state school. I'm not convinced it is however unacceptable fullstop.
And some want to wear them out of choice. It's not necessarily about subjugation.
Should not be allowed in any state school.
It this sort of political weakness that emboldens minorities to demand special privileges.
Put up a notice saying customers wearing any form of headcovering that obscures their entire face other than their eyes are not permitted to enter your shop. Afaik that won't contravene any discrimination or other laws.
Even when it is worn out of choice by Western converts?
In schools you can have dress codes.
Oh yeah.
and have to fight a test case all the way to the ECHR.
Not if your ban applies to any kind of face covering.
how would i have them arrested? what description am i going to give?
the point i'm making is security is only an issue after the event. how do i know when i'm out at night that someone in a burqa isn't a dude with a knife?
it is always about subjugation, even when worn out of choice.
that schools have a dress code is a cop out. you want to specify that you can't wear a burqa in schools. you can wear a turban or other religious dress. why should the dress code for schools prohibit the burqa and niqab? you need a reason.
no.
discrimination legislation applies indirectly too. like for example a minimum height requirement has been determined to be sexist even though it applies equally to men and women. a woman sued BA after they wouldn't let her fly a certain type of plane because she didn't have the requisite number of hours required by safety rules, because she had been on maternity.
a ban on face coverings may well be legal. but that it applies to all face coverings is not why.
You don't. But it's unlikely that they would be, and in any case anyone could have a hidden knife on them.
If someone is willing to be subjugated, surely that's up to them!
Security? The school needs to be able to identify their students.
Why? The ban applies to everyone regardless of gender, race, religion. sexual orientation or anything else. I doubt even the ECtHR could 'interpret' the ECHR to uphold such a claim.
OK does that mean you would ban the veil anywhere someone needs to be able to be identified? like all places of work? when using any kind of travel pass? any kind of card payment?
fortunately though the place of work thing doesn't seem to come up because subjugated women tend not to have jobs.
because of this.
it's like the method of voting that requires you to put your penis on the table.