What is so wrong about driving in the middle lane at 70mph

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  • brewer480brewer480 Posts: 1,680
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    alfster wrote: »
    "Getting from lane 2 onwards, into lane 1 for your exit, isn't made easier by the queue of HGVs you sometimes get in lane one which seem practically bumper-to-bumper: it can be a struggle to find any sort of gap, no matter how big.. "

    So on a familiar route you get into lane 1 two miles before your junction - even if there isn't a sign you pick out a bridge or a field or house as a marker and move over at that point - I have a few markers on regular routes where I do this...pre-planning and anticipation.

    Also, by looking up the motorway one can sometimes see the line of trucks and hence get into lane earlier than usual as well.

    All it takes is thinking about what you need to do in a few minutes time looking at what the traffic might be like at that point and getting into position.

    Also most HGV and artic lorry drivers fully understand when someone wants to join the lane so they can leave the motorway, if you position yourself correctly and indicate in enough time they will slow down a little to give you room to join.
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    For example, you indicated that you've found yourself in an unwanted filter lane on a familiar route. How? If it's familiar you should know about the filter lane, aside from the fact that it'll be indicated a least a mile beforehand, and then at half a mile.
    On a long, familiar route (eg. M6 from M1 junction to, say, J36), you will vaguely remember some of the filter lanes as you encounter them, but probably won't be able to remember the details of every single one.

    The direction signs will be of no interest when you're at J2 and still have 30-odd junctions to go. You will need to pay attention to overhead gantry messages, to lane closures, to temporary speed limits, everything on the road itself, such as lane markings, all the other traffic, and whatever challenges the weather is currently throwing at you. Route markings, which may incorporate a filter notification, tend to be low on the list, especially if you're in lane 2 or 3 at the time thus making them irrelevant. (The main thing to watch for is not ending up on the M6 Toll.)

    Nevertheless they generally are noted; my point is that they are just another thing to watch out for, which being a lane or two further in makes it one less thing to worry about. (Except perhaps on certain routes abroad where exits and filter lanes can occur on either side.)
    This will depend on precisely when you decide to move into the first lane. Your posts also indicate a lack of anticipation so I'm wondering if you're one of those who chooses to try and move over at the last minute. Again, there'll be a sign a mile beforehand and I think it highly unlikely you'll have a mile long convoy of bumper-to-bumper trucks.
    It happens that there will be a line of tricks, if not bumper to bumper, then with no space to safely get between. There might well be over a mile of them, but it doesn't need to be a mile: there could just be a bunch of them at the point where you want to move to lane 1.

    There may or may not be a gap further ahead, but your speed differential might not be enough to get you to there in time to make the junction. Or, more often, there's a middle lane hogger ahead of you stopping you from getting to the gap! (Not a real hogger in this case, just someone who doesn't need the next junction, so is legitimately using the lane because he's going faster than the trucks or because of congestion.)
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    alfster wrote: »
    All it takes is thinking about what you need to do in a few minutes time looking at what the traffic might be like at that point and getting into position.

    Since you're obviously an expert and can anticipate everything, what do you do in this situation: you're driving in lane 2 (in normal, busy, streamed traffic) on an unfamiliar route but need to get off at the next junction. You don't know how many miles ahead it is.

    But you notice lane 1 traffic becoming denser and slower to the point where joining it now would mean slowing down dangerously in lane 2. What do you do?

    (What I would do is give up on that junction as there's obviously a problem, and plan a different route to my destination.)

    (BTW how exactly do you look at what the traffic is going to be like a few miles head? Do you have your own private helicopter relaying pictures to your car? Because if everyone could do that, then we'd never have 10-mile-long tailbacks.)
  • gemma-the-huskygemma-the-husky Posts: 18,116
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    Ffs. 744 posts.
  • tim59tim59 Posts: 47,188
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    Since you're obviously an expert and can anticipate everything, what do you do in this situation: you're driving in lane 2 (in normal, busy, streamed traffic) on an unfamiliar route but need to get off at the next junction. You don't know how many miles ahead it is.

    But you notice lane 1 traffic becoming denser and slower to the point where joining it now would mean slowing down dangerously in lane 2. What do you do?

    (What I would do is give up on that junction as there's obviously a problem, and plan a different route to my destination.)

    (BTW how exactly do you look at what the traffic is going to be like a few miles head? Do you have your own private helicopter relaying pictures to your car? Because if everyone could do that, then we'd never have 10-mile-long tailbacks.)

    The junction will be marked and sign posted miles before you are anywere near it, plenty of time to get into lane 1 to get off your junction, sorry but these signs are very large to easy to see, that is why they put these signs there and miles before junction for people who are on a unfamiliar route
  • TrollHunterTrollHunter Posts: 12,496
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    Since you're obviously an expert and can anticipate everything, what do you do in this situation: you're driving in lane 2 (in normal, busy, streamed traffic) on an unfamiliar route but need to get off at the next junction. You don't know how many miles ahead it is.

    But you notice lane 1 traffic becoming denser and slower to the point where joining it now would mean slowing down dangerously in lane 2. What do you do?

    When I pass the 1 mile marker, depending on the level of congestion in lane 1, I'd either try and get into lane 1 at the earliest opportunity or if there are gaps in the traffic, I'd gradually decrease my speed and move into a gap in lane 1.

    If the traffic in lane 1 was at a standstill, the likelihood is that traffic in lane 2 would be slowing down too as a number of vehicles would be trying to exit. If this is the case, slowing down in lane 2 would be less of a concern.
  • Deacon1972Deacon1972 Posts: 8,171
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    Since you're obviously an expert and can anticipate everything, what do you do in this situation: you're driving in lane 2 (in normal, busy, streamed traffic) on an unfamiliar route but need to get off at the next junction. You don't know how many miles ahead it is.

    But you notice lane 1 traffic becoming denser and slower to the point where joining it now would mean slowing down dangerously in lane 2. What do you do?

    (What I would do is give up on that junction as there's obviously a problem, and plan a different route to my destination.)

    (BTW how exactly do you look at what the traffic is going to be like a few miles head? Do you have your own private helicopter relaying pictures to your car? Because if everyone could do that, then we'd never have 10-mile-long tailbacks.)
    Unfamiliar route, don't know how far your exit is, speed difference between lanes 1 and 2 make it dangerous to slow down and move over.....

    I see what you have done here, you have made up a situation that makes it very difficult for anyone to simply move into the inside lane that has said the 1mile marker gives you plenty of time to plan your exit even a busy motorway or moves over earlier if traffic seems to be getting heavier.

    I'll answer anyway......

    I'd monitor the situation up until the mile marker, you never know, the situation might have cleared by then allowing you to plan your exit and leave the motorway safely.

    If it hasn't cleared you inevitably find traffic starts to slow in other lanes and you are all crawling along, so by the half mile marker you should have a good indication if the problem is on the slip exit or motorway. If it's on the slip road I'd probably get off at the next exit, if it's on the motorway I would move over and get off at my planned exit.
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    tim59 wrote: »
    The junction will be marked and sign posted miles before you are anywere near it...

    No it isn't. If you need J24 and you've just passed J23, then that's all you will know, until you get to within a mile of the exit. I've rarely seen mileages to specific junctions.
    When I pass the 1 mile marker, depending on the level of congestion in lane 1, I'd either try and get into lane 1 at the earliest opportunity.
    This is the problem, the tailback has started long before the one-mile marker.
    If the traffic in lane 1 was at a standstill, the likelihood is that traffic in lane 2 would be slowing down too as a number of vehicles would be trying to exit. If this is the case, slowing down in lane 2 would be less of a concern.
    You would have to restrict your speed in lane 2 if lane 1 is at a standstill (a 70+mph relative speed is too much). But I wouldn't want to be the one to have to come to a halt, especially with a truck behind doing 50mph.
  • tim59tim59 Posts: 47,188
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    No it isn't. If you need J24 and you've just passed J23, then that's all you will know, until you get to within a mile of the exit. I've rarely seen mileages to specific junctions.

    This is the problem, the tailback has started long before the one-mile marker.You would have to restrict your speed in lane 2 if lane 1 is at a standstill (a 70+mph relative speed is too much). But I wouldn't want to be the one to have to come to a halt, especially with a truck behind doing 50mph.

    Sounds to me you are just trying to find loads of excuses, and saying most the population end up driving in areas they dont know, dont tend to have all these problems, if you need junction 24 and you have just past 23 and you have not seen the sign telling you how many miles to junction 23 or the town or city you are heading for then just move into lane 1 till you get to the junction you need, the lorries are not going to bite you, plus if you see lane 1 at a standstill you should start reducing your speed as there could be a hazard futher up which could be effecting lane 2, a accident or breakdown on lane 1 could be forcing the traffic into lane 2.
  • Watcher #1Watcher #1 Posts: 9,043
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    I'm amazed by the MLMs who seem to be unaware that they have these handy orange/yellow flashing lights on the corner of their vehicles. These can be used to indicate your intention, allowing other motorists the option to create space to allow for your intended move. If used in good time, along with adjustment of speed, changing lane is a simple task.
  • .Lauren..Lauren. Posts: 7,864
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    Sorry if this has already been mentioned but....

    Surely a lot of people are being to rigid with the 70mph thing? Yes, the limit is 70mph, but realistically there are going to be situations where you are going to have to exceed that to get out of trouble or ease congestion (for example by overtaking congestion in the middle lane) as long as it's done safely.

    Surely this is more about good sense and safe driving than pedantry of speed and 'I do because I can'.

    If you can answer yes to:

    1. Am I in the middle lane to overtake?
    2. Am I in the middle lane because the left lane is soon to split off?

    Then fine, if not, move over to the left! Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,129
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    Since you're obviously an expert and can anticipate everything, what do you do in this situation: you're driving in lane 2 (in normal, busy, streamed traffic) on an unfamiliar route but need to get off at the next junction. You don't know how many miles ahead it is.

    But you notice lane 1 traffic becoming denser and slower to the point where joining it now would mean slowing down dangerously in lane 2. What do you do?

    Well, i wouldn't have got into that situation because I would have seen the lane 1 traffic starting to get too dense to move across further up the motorway and moved in earlier.

    You are giving an example where the person driving has failed to anticipate - and if it was to get too dangerous you go to the next junction and turn around there....only your fault as you are the one driving.

    Oh, and plan your journey in advance - have a look at where the junctions are etc - it only takes a minute on googlemaps or a paper map to make a judgement and if you are going on a unfamiliar route you really should be planning your journey.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,129
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    No it isn't. If you need J24 and you've just passed J23, then that's all you will know, until you get to within a mile of the exit. I've rarely seen mileages to specific junctions.

    And yet the majority of people can cope with it and hence that is why it is.

    It does seem you are still failing to see what motorway drving is all about - as I've suggested to someone else - have a couple of hours lessons on driving on a motorway with a driving instructor and you'll have no problems after that. And that is a serious, non-judgemental suggestion - you'll be a more confident and better driver on the motorway and the traffic will flow better with one less person sticking in the middle lane.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,129
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    On a long, familiar route (eg. M6 from M1 junction to, say, J36), you will vaguely remember some of the filter lanes as you encounter them, but probably won't be able to remember the details of every single one.

    The direction signs will be of no interest when you're at J2 and still have 30-odd junctions to go.

    Are you doing this on purpose? Have youn not read any of what people are saying? What you have basically said is: I do not need to pay much attention to where I am until a short distance from where I need to get of the motorway.

    We have said direction signs are important as it allows one to anticipate whether traffic density will increase or decrease around towns and cities.

    The direction signs around junction 3 of the M6 can be important (especially years ago before the improvedtraffic managementon the roundabout) because you could gaurantee the queue would feed on to the motorway meaning cars would be moving lanes more to go round the static traffic.

    That is when you are familiar with that junction - if you are unfamiliar with the junction one should be thinking "will the traffic be bad at this junction as it is going off to Coventry - a mjaor city? Yes, possibly, better be slightly more aware of the traffic for a while."
  • TrollHunterTrollHunter Posts: 12,496
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    .Lauren. wrote: »
    Sorry if this has already been mentioned but....

    Surely a lot of people are being to rigid with the 70mph thing? Yes, the limit is 70mph, but realistically there are going to be situations where you are going to have to exceed that to get out of trouble or ease congestion (for example by overtaking congestion in the middle lane) as long as it's done safely.

    Surely this is more about good sense and safe driving than pedantry of speed and 'I do because I can'.

    If you can answer yes to:

    1. Am I in the middle lane to overtake?
    2. Am I in the middle lane because the left lane is soon to split off?

    Then fine, if not, move over to the left! Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

    So nothing for 754 posts then you wade in here spouting logic. If you'd read the thread from the beginning you'll see that some posters refuse point-blank to accept logic and common-sense so your accurate post will fall mostly on deaf ears. There are those that know what you write is complete common sense and adhere to it already then there are those who will just ignore the sense you speak and continue doing their own thing.

    Oh well :)
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    alfster wrote: »
    It does seem you are still failing to see what motorway drving is all about - as I've suggested to someone else - have a couple of hours lessons on driving on a motorway with a driving instructor and you'll have no problems after that. And that is a serious, non-judgemental suggestion - you'll be a more confident and better driver on the motorway and the traffic will flow better with one less person sticking in the middle lane.

    What makes you think I stick to the middle lane? I might use lanes 2 and 3 as well as 1, with typical busy traffic, and mainly lane 1 when it's much lighter.

    I happen to be in the group that believes that traffic flows better when spread over several lanes, especially with different average speeds. You and clearly most others in this thread apparently believe otherwise - stay left [in UK] at all costs! But then even some of those have grudgingly admitted that this doesn't apply when there is congestion (seemingly most of the time).

    But while I have an opposing view, I would never suggest to anyone else that they should give up driving or take driving lessons!

    BTW I have many thousands of hours' experience of motorway driving, much of it on the Continent, including 2-lane motorways. I'm not sure how I will benefit from a driving lesson at this stage. In Europe (which I will be driving across next week, probably for the 20th time) conforming to local conventions is more important than slavishly following the highway code. So if trucks and cars tend to keep to particular lanes, then I might have to do the same.
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    alfster wrote: »
    The direction signs around junction 3 of the M6 can be important (especially years ago before the improvedtraffic managementon the roundabout) because you could gaurantee the queue would feed on to the motorway meaning cars would be moving lanes more to go round the static traffic.

    Yes, exactly. This is another problem with lane 1 driving, which hasn't been mentioned before. Cars come off an exit, lane 1 looks invitingly empty for a few hundred yards, but that's deceptive! Because there will be a new bunch of cars joining, and you're going to be in their way, or in the way of a truck.
  • TrollHunterTrollHunter Posts: 12,496
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    You and clearly most others in this thread apparently believe otherwise - stay left [in UK] at all costs!
    No-one has said that.
  • Deacon1972Deacon1972 Posts: 8,171
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    Yes, exactly. This is another problem with lane 1 driving, which hasn't been mentioned before. Cars come off an exit, lane 1 looks invitingly empty for a few hundred yards, but that's deceptive! Because there will be a new bunch of cars joining, and you're going to be in their way, or in the way of a truck.

    Why is this a problem - you've just explained what you should expect after an exit slip, just act to the situation.

    Precisely why signs are helpful even if they don't directly apply to you, the mile marker will tell you an exit slip is approaching, therefore you know there could be vehicles joining shortly after, this gives you a mile to react accordingly to the traffic conditions.

    You should also expect this when roads/motorway merge, again just act accordingly.

    I'm guessing the next problem will be joining a motorway. :o
  • TrollHunterTrollHunter Posts: 12,496
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    Yes, exactly. This is another problem with lane 1 driving, which hasn't been mentioned before. Cars come off an exit, lane 1 looks invitingly empty for a few hundred yards, but that's deceptive! Because there will be a new bunch of cars joining, and you're going to be in their way, or in the way of a truck.

    The only way that would be a problem would be if you weren't paying attention and didn't realise there was a slip road joining the main carriageway. To do that you'd have to drive without looking at road signage and no-one does that do they...
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    No-one has said that.

    I do wonder sometimes if I'm reading the same thread as some other posters. Either that or I'm not understanding what has been written in the same way that other posters do.
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    Deacon1972 wrote: »
    Why is this a problem - you've just explained what you should expect after an exit slip, just act to the situation.
    The problem is when you're looking for a big enough gap to rejoin lane 1. But a gap between exit and entry slip roads might not be as big as it looks at first, as other traffic can join it from the left. If it looks like it's going to be difficult to get back to lane 2 (and maybe you have sight of the joining traffic) then staying put might be better.
  • seanfseanf Posts: 3,092
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    I was on the M62 east bound last week goole area and some dozie git was doing just under 70 in the middle lane, yes I do go over 70 but my 15 year old astra doesn't like going above 80, but on this day I was in no rush so I was doing around 70 in the inside lane on an almost clear motorway, so as I caught up to him I had to move from inside to middle to outside, once past him back to middle then to inside.
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,436
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    No-one has said that.

    Post #701 did, for one:
    brewer480 wrote: »
    In other words KEEP TO THE LEFT! Only change lane if you are overtaking or instructed by signs or the police. There is no such thing as a middle lane, it is an overtaking lane, and you should return to the left hand lane as soon as it is safe to do so.

    If everyone stuck to these rules the M25 wouldn't be such a car park!!!
  • muntamunta Posts: 18,285
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    The problem is when you're looking for a big enough gap to rejoin lane 1. But a gap between exit and entry slip roads might not be as big as it looks at first, as other traffic can join it from the left. If it looks like it's going to be difficult to get back to lane 2 (and maybe you have sight of the joining traffic) then staying put might be better.

    Sigh.

    You do not attempt to be in the left lane at all costs. You read the road to decide if you should be in the left lane. It s blindingly obvious that you don't pull into a lane when you know it is likely to fill with other cars. None of us on here expected to have to explain simple safety rules. So just because we don't explicitly mention something does not mean we expect people the do, or not do the thing we didn't mention.

    So once again. To make this very simple.

    1 you should aim to be in the left hand lane if safe and sensible to do so
    2 if you over take you should aim to move back to the left hand lane when safe and sensible to do so
    3 you shouldn't be in an overtaking lane other when overtaking, in congestion or when directed by the police or signage
    4 you should read ALL signs to make sure you know you are in the correct lane at all times.

    The rest of us can manage this. Why can't you?
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