Cracked it - maybe - just spotted big clue :)
MinkytheDog
Posts: 5,658 Forum Member
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Firstly, I'll spoiler tag these but they are not leaks - just a way to make it un-spoilery for anyone who might land here by mistake 
As Amy said - this is where it gets weird. Basically, the events all happen out of sequence. Time travel - who'd have it
Note:-
I'm not trying to explain the why's and wherefore's of the entire series in the first part of this post. That's a completely different story and I'm just trying to establish an order of certain events.
I'll add a suggestion as to why those things COULD fit into a POSSIBLE plot BUT I am not saying that this is exactly what will happen in future episodes - it's just there as an example of how it could fit together.
If you want to comment on the content of this post, can you stick to the points in the first part - the "factual" content and clues rather than discussing the personal fantasy story in the second - that is not what this thread is about.
Thank to simmons_5251 incidentally - without whom I wouldn't have been able to see 11th Hour (I hadn't seen it since the day it was broadcast so today was my first chance to look at it properly).
Pete
When was Amy "kidnapped"....
How does that fit with Amy being in the Tardis as an adult...
So why did Amy's history change...(here's that "Big Clue" - I think this may be the one that Moffat always said no-one had spotted even though it was right in their faces)
So what does that prove....
Why go to all that trouble...
So when was Amy replaced with a copy...
There it is.
It's entirely possible that I've missed or misunderstood something so tell me if you spot any actual mistakes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From here, I am completely and only trying to offer a possible scenario - a way to fit the above together - it is not meant to be a theory on what has really happened or will happen in the series - or next year's - or the year after that.
Why replace Amy...
So why all this fuss now....
So, who's the daddy...
That's not possible because "Amy" wasn't real...
But what about the Rory we've been seeing...
So what went wrong with the Doctor's plan....
So what happens next year....
...and then....
And finally, what happens to the Alliance in the end....
As Amy said - this is where it gets weird. Basically, the events all happen out of sequence. Time travel - who'd have it
Note:-
I'm not trying to explain the why's and wherefore's of the entire series in the first part of this post. That's a completely different story and I'm just trying to establish an order of certain events.
I'll add a suggestion as to why those things COULD fit into a POSSIBLE plot BUT I am not saying that this is exactly what will happen in future episodes - it's just there as an example of how it could fit together.
If you want to comment on the content of this post, can you stick to the points in the first part - the "factual" content and clues rather than discussing the personal fantasy story in the second - that is not what this thread is about.
Thank to simmons_5251 incidentally - without whom I wouldn't have been able to see 11th Hour (I hadn't seen it since the day it was broadcast so today was my first chance to look at it properly).
Pete
When was Amy "kidnapped"....
At the museum.
She vanishes - immediately after the "dying" Doctor whispers something to our Doctor - and he explains it as her being erased from history. The camera pans around to show the glow and we hear the Dalek reviving. For whatever reason (?) the camera pans around at floor level and we see Amelia's drinking cup.
She only had that cup because the Doctor went back in time and took it from Amelia a few minutes earlier. If she had been erased from history, that cup couldn't exist and certainly couldn't remain in the future if Amelia was then erased.
She vanishes - immediately after the "dying" Doctor whispers something to our Doctor - and he explains it as her being erased from history. The camera pans around to show the glow and we hear the Dalek reviving. For whatever reason (?) the camera pans around at floor level and we see Amelia's drinking cup.
She only had that cup because the Doctor went back in time and took it from Amelia a few minutes earlier. If she had been erased from history, that cup couldn't exist and certainly couldn't remain in the future if Amelia was then erased.
How does that fit with Amy being in the Tardis as an adult...
At the begining of Big Bang, we see a repeat of the begining of 11th Hour - except that the Tardis doesn't crash and there are no stars in the sky.
That suggests that history changed and the Doctor didn't arrive - which would make sense except that the Doctor's timeline included crashing on that date. At the time, we thought the Doctor was in the Pandorica and time had been altered but when we find that he wasn't, his timeline can't have been erased so that crash - and the stars on that date in 1996 - had to still be there.
That means that the scene we saw in Big Bang was the original - that's the even as it actually happened - and the one we saw in 11th Hour actually took place afterwards - they're the wrong way around.
(Note:- In 11th Hour, you can hear the Silence when Amelia is praying - you can't hear them in the same scene in Big Bang - they weren't there until Amy's history changed)
That suggests that history changed and the Doctor didn't arrive - which would make sense except that the Doctor's timeline included crashing on that date. At the time, we thought the Doctor was in the Pandorica and time had been altered but when we find that he wasn't, his timeline can't have been erased so that crash - and the stars on that date in 1996 - had to still be there.
That means that the scene we saw in Big Bang was the original - that's the even as it actually happened - and the one we saw in 11th Hour actually took place afterwards - they're the wrong way around.
(Note:- In 11th Hour, you can hear the Silence when Amelia is praying - you can't hear them in the same scene in Big Bang - they weren't there until Amy's history changed)
So why did Amy's history change...(here's that "Big Clue" - I think this may be the one that Moffat always said no-one had spotted even though it was right in their faces)
The Tardis did not crash into Amelia Pond's garden in 1996 :eek:
The 10th Doctor regenerated, the Tardis is then damaged and careers towards Earth, through the atmosphere. It then shoots over London and eventually crash-lands in Amelia's garden.
Except that it "crashes" in 1996.
Which is odd because when it was passing over London, it flew right over the top of a fully built, illuminated Miillenium Dome - which wasn't completed until 1999.
The Tardis' cicuits were out, it wasn't travelling through time and space - it was just crashing.
The 10th Doctor regenerated, the Tardis is then damaged and careers towards Earth, through the atmosphere. It then shoots over London and eventually crash-lands in Amelia's garden.
Except that it "crashes" in 1996.
Which is odd because when it was passing over London, it flew right over the top of a fully built, illuminated Miillenium Dome - which wasn't completed until 1999.
The Tardis' cicuits were out, it wasn't travelling through time and space - it was just crashing.
So what does that prove....
It means he had a chunk of time between regenerating and arriving in Amelia's garden. He deliberately went back in time and "crashed" into Amelia's garden with a Tardis that was at least partially working - he lied about the automated repairs not being completed as an excuse for not letting Amelia enter the Tardis.
He had not - at that point - have had the new interior fitted. Too busy doing other, more important things like saving the universe to get around to interior decorating.
He had not - at that point - have had the new interior fitted. Too busy doing other, more important things like saving the universe to get around to interior decorating.
Why go to all that trouble...
Because he knew she was being watched by an enemy that couldn't be seen. They were using the crack in her wall as a portal - a door way into her house.
He needed them to believe that he'd arrived there by accident, wasn't to worried and would later travel around with the adult Amy - as their version of history said he would. They had also placed cracks in the places that they knew they would be at various points in time - so they could travel there and keep an eye on Amy.
He needed them to believe that he'd arrived there by accident, wasn't to worried and would later travel around with the adult Amy - as their version of history said he would. They had also placed cracks in the places that they knew they would be at various points in time - so they could travel there and keep an eye on Amy.
So when was Amy replaced with a copy...
In 11th Hour - before she was kidnapped - and after she was kidnapped - but the kidnapped one was the real Amelia (told you it was getting weird)
The real 1996 was the one in Big Bang - no stars and no Doctor. The Doctor witnessed or learned of some future event after he crashed in 2005-2010, made the necessary arrangements, then travelled to 1996 and took Amelia to safety when she was in the museum.
She wasn't kidnapped - the Doctor took her to protect her. He wouldn't leave a child alone in that house for a minute never mind clear off for 12 years.
Even the little Amelia we saw in every episode except Big Bang was copy - a copy that grew up to be the Amy copy.
He took Amelia from the museum then travelled back and replaced her. He then travelled back again and "crashed" into her garden - so the copy and those watching would think it was their first meeting.
Just for info...
There is an "unknown" figure in the museum - it is seen briefly moving away at the edge of the screen when Amy is talking to Amelia. This was spotted a long time ago but never explained. It was thought to be a mistake - a member of the crew wandering into shot - but it is so blatent that it's difficult to imagine it being missed by the editor. If anyone hasn't seen it - it's about 13:30 into the episode just before Amy looks at the written history of the Pandorica - far right of the screen. There are also a couple of questionable "shadows" behind the two Egyptian mummy cases - they are too dark to be real shadows and look rather like people wearing loose, dark clothing - like a monk??. They could just be stands - something to prop those cases up - however, the furthest mummy case moves - it goes from leaning back to being upright between 13:10 and 13:25.
With what we have now seen in next week's trailer, three "monks" would explain those "figures" in the museum. I think those "monks" are the Doctor, Rory and either River or the real Amy. If so - we may actually see Amelia being replaced this week. Something that happened 15 years in her past that doesn't actually happen until now. We may even discover that Amy was the one who replaced herself - lead Amelia to safety.
The real 1996 was the one in Big Bang - no stars and no Doctor. The Doctor witnessed or learned of some future event after he crashed in 2005-2010, made the necessary arrangements, then travelled to 1996 and took Amelia to safety when she was in the museum.
She wasn't kidnapped - the Doctor took her to protect her. He wouldn't leave a child alone in that house for a minute never mind clear off for 12 years.
Even the little Amelia we saw in every episode except Big Bang was copy - a copy that grew up to be the Amy copy.
He took Amelia from the museum then travelled back and replaced her. He then travelled back again and "crashed" into her garden - so the copy and those watching would think it was their first meeting.
Just for info...
There is an "unknown" figure in the museum - it is seen briefly moving away at the edge of the screen when Amy is talking to Amelia. This was spotted a long time ago but never explained. It was thought to be a mistake - a member of the crew wandering into shot - but it is so blatent that it's difficult to imagine it being missed by the editor. If anyone hasn't seen it - it's about 13:30 into the episode just before Amy looks at the written history of the Pandorica - far right of the screen. There are also a couple of questionable "shadows" behind the two Egyptian mummy cases - they are too dark to be real shadows and look rather like people wearing loose, dark clothing - like a monk??. They could just be stands - something to prop those cases up - however, the furthest mummy case moves - it goes from leaning back to being upright between 13:10 and 13:25.
With what we have now seen in next week's trailer, three "monks" would explain those "figures" in the museum. I think those "monks" are the Doctor, Rory and either River or the real Amy. If so - we may actually see Amelia being replaced this week. Something that happened 15 years in her past that doesn't actually happen until now. We may even discover that Amy was the one who replaced herself - lead Amelia to safety.
There it is.
It's entirely possible that I've missed or misunderstood something so tell me if you spot any actual mistakes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From here, I am completely and only trying to offer a possible scenario - a way to fit the above together - it is not meant to be a theory on what has really happened or will happen in the series - or next year's - or the year after that.
Why replace Amy...
Something the Doctor learned in the future. He knew that one or her descendants was going to be a hugely important figure and someone wanted to take her baby in the year 2011. If he'd just moved her to a safe place or taken her with him, they'd have been hunted down so he had to let them think she was still there.
So why all this fuss now....
This is the time when history says Amy's baby will be born and the forces that had always planned to take her when that time came realised that they'd been tricked when the Silence kidnapped the fake Amy and found that she was a copy.
So, who's the daddy...
Rory Williams
That's not possible because "Amy" wasn't real...
The Doctor also knew that Amy's baby's father was Rory Williams and that he would therefore be a target for the badguys. He actually took and replaced both of them. Rory and Amy have grown up together in their hiding place and they've got married and Amy is now having their child
But what about the Rory we've been seeing...
He doesn't know he's a copy but he's begun to realise. His real job now is to be the warrior...
...to rescue the real Amy - and Rory.
He'll sacrifice himself so that Amy - who he loves more than life - can be safe with the man she loves.
...to rescue the real Amy - and Rory.
He'll sacrifice himself so that Amy - who he loves more than life - can be safe with the man she loves.
So what went wrong with the Doctor's plan....
He was betrayed by one of the members of the Pandorica Alliance. One of them was THE bad-guy - the masterminds behind the whole thing - and that was....
...the Daleks.
They are the only Alliance members who don't fight at the Battle of Demon's Run - because they are waiting to move in and sweep to power after the others have been weakened and suffered dreadful losses in the war. They set all of the most powerful races in the universe against each other and now they are just watching and waiting.
They out-thought the Doctor. The real plan was never about Amy's baby - it was about causing Demon's Run - and the Doctor made that happen.
The Daleks are not frightened of the Doctor and they don't run away when he appears - they used him and exploited him.
...and he's going to fall as a result.
...the Daleks.
They are the only Alliance members who don't fight at the Battle of Demon's Run - because they are waiting to move in and sweep to power after the others have been weakened and suffered dreadful losses in the war. They set all of the most powerful races in the universe against each other and now they are just watching and waiting.
They out-thought the Doctor. The real plan was never about Amy's baby - it was about causing Demon's Run - and the Doctor made that happen.
The Daleks are not frightened of the Doctor and they don't run away when he appears - they used him and exploited him.
...and he's going to fall as a result.
So what happens next year....
A full-on Dalek series - one villain at the height of their powers and a war across all 13 episodes between the Daleks and the Alliance.
...and then....
The war continues in 2013 until...
A final batte on the 50th anniversary of the series with all of the Doctors in it.
A final batte on the 50th anniversary of the series with all of the Doctors in it.
And finally, what happens to the Alliance in the end....
They get taken over by Santander
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Comments
The sound of Silence when Amelia is praying?!?! Come on man!
It's there - why claim I'm making that up when you could just listen to it and hear it for yourself.
There's a clicking noise - a sound effect used whenever we see the Silence - and in 11th Hour, that same noise is played several times in the scene where Amelia is praying - starting at the point where she mentions then looks at the crack.
You say nothing about the post itself - just insult me. I think it's safe to say that you aren't even remotely interested in discussing this properly. You make sweeping statements denigrating my post but you say absolutely nothing about WHY I'm wrong.
It's easy to say - "you're wrong" without saying why - trolls do it all the time.
It's particularly outstanding effort - criticising something that was clearly marked as a note and wasn't any part of the main text or in any way required as proof - whilst ignoring a very clear, polite request to restrict feed-back to the main facts and clues.
Well done
Forget the theories - what about the dome?
Complete waste of money, but in the case of your theory it's interesting it could be a simple mistake but the people working on Doctor Who must be clever.
I see your logic and it's a perfectly plausible idea, but in terms of storytelling, not so much.
I'd say the same thing about the start of Big Bang - there are about twenty different time jumps in a couple of minutes including the Doctor picking up and relocating a whole variety of props like sonics, mops and drink-cups and history was "rewritten" several times on the fly. Imagine what that looked like when it was written down - showing it on screen is a lot different and things that take a paragraph to write and explain need only take a second or two to show.
(Incidentally - there were two Doctors in that museum and only one of them entered the Pandorica
It is possible the people making the shot weren't aware of the time frame, but then surely Moffatt would have noticed it when approving?
It's a given that Moffat lies, that way he can keep surprises more of a surprise.
I think there is a lot of logic in your theory, I still think the mummy cases and dark figures are just stands and cointinuity errors, and the cloaked figure was part of the crew, but on reading your post really really hope I'm wrong.
Anyway, my head now hurts, so thanks a bunch for that!
They were only mentioned in the fantasy part - the bit I said wasn't relevent to the thread in terms of discussing the clues.
Agreed - mostly - that's why I seperated that part from the main content and wrote "just for info"
Lots of people spotted that the TARDIS was flying over London in a later year than it crashed in (It's usually given as New Years Eve 2004 as that was when the TARDIS took off).
So SM didn't read many forums if he thought no one spotted it.
Thanks - that's the sort of info I was looking for.
Did anyone ever find a "reason" for it?
It may have been passed off as nothing at the time as there was no reason to supsect things like time being changed or people swapped for copies - a lot of thing dismissed as continuity or other errors have later proven to be deliberate (doctor's jackey in the forest, for example)
Yes. It was a minute tiny error by the production team who foolishly forgot the amount of scrutiny every single frame of DW is now subjected to. Same as the shadows in the museum etc etc. And the Doctors Jacket is the only example in Moffats DW of people mistaking a deliberate plot point for a continuity error and even then vast swathes of the Internet figured it was purposeful even shortly after broadcast.
Rory's 1990 dated ID badge was also tied into this and there was even one website that claimed all the cars seen in Leadworth had Registrations from the 1990's.
Something that does support your theory is that the TARDIS materializes in the Garden (the "brakes" are heard just before the Crash) rather than a straight crash landing out of the sky.
Regardless of whether Minky´s theory is right or wrong it makes interesting and entertaining reading....isn´t this what the forum is for? I don´t write a hell of a lot on here but I do read a lot and Minky has spent a lot of time and thought on this post. All too often people are too quick (and too harsh at the same time) to shoot other people´s theories down in flames.
Come on people, play nicely and give credit where credit is due! I´m sure there´s loads of people out there who would love to put their theories in writing but are worried that they will be criticised by some of the fans on here - I´ve seen some horribly patronising remarks on here.
Well done Minky
I'm sorry though, but this theory is obviously wrong, for one BIG reason (amongst others that I can't be bothered listing), that has nothing to with the in-universe Dr Who world. The Moff wouldn't do a storyline that spread this far, for fear of alienating those who didn't see series 5 and thus wouldn't get series 6. Thats the simplest reason.
Also, I have yet to hear the Silence in series 5, and i've rewatched them ALL very intently. In fact, I haven't seen them yet either.
I believe, simply because its the most sensible idea, and because it was stated in confidential that she was taken before Episode 1, that she was abducted AFTER the Big Bang but BEFORE the Impossible Astronaut, as we know there was time there, at least 3 months where they didn't see the Doctor.
Its either that or something in the new TARDIS design, reminiscent of an old one???
a) Who was the voice who claimed "Silence will fall!" in TPO, and
b?who took over the controls of the TArdis at the end of TPO
Will this be explained? There has been very little discussion about this two burning issues that I can see.
Anyway, party on!
is that like how my alliance and leicester bank got took over by santander?