I'd vote to kill it, no problem. I'd kill it now if I could.
Ah, a Grendel's Mother scenario. That would have been (and in fact is) a much better story.
When they were all standing around rhapsodising on the beach at the end, I was longing for the sea to rise up and engulf everyone, followed by earthquakes and hurricanes etc, and for the Doctor and Clara to be forced to make a hurried exit in the Tardis as the remnants of the population of Earth attempted to garrotte them for being so stupid.
That's the ending I would have loved to see (and let's face a more likely out come).
Almost very nearly a great episode. Although a 'we are poisonous to this bacteria and it has learned and adapted to this and will no longer try to eat us' might have been a better get out than 'kills 99% of all known germs" (a better story for that idea is the 1% of the known germs, and some unknown ones we cant kill being an antagonist, spinning a story out of the 'superbugs' hospitals talk of).
Fitted in very well with the idea of a Darker series. Humanity would have destroyed something to save itself which is what humanity always does, to its detriment. Humanity was ignored, with the doctor having a mild triumphant response (and hinting that what people are seeing in him as cruel or arrogant or uncaring behaviour is him being 'inhuman' but not in the way we mean it normally.
Acting out of fear, destroying a threat to save itself, or at least trying to is the source of the worst of humanity, replicated all over the world, right now, as ideologies of different shade seek to destroy each other in order to preserve themselves, with the consequence being more destruction for all.
This was, for Doctor Who as it has existed in its rebooted form, a truly mature expression of it's pacifist agenda. Fear of the the unknown and acting out of fear brings out the worst of us. Hoping, and acting out of higher thoughts (yes, love, sorry emotion phobes) is a risk, but the consequences of that risk stand to be better than the certainty of the propogation of fear by acting as exterminators of that which we do not understand as a first course of action.
And relationships can go into very difficult places but still, ultimately, survive.
I cant understand why people simply don't or cant see just how in charge of the events of this series the Doctor is. It isn't the Clara show. She is in the Dark as the rest of us as to how far this iteration will go to protect the 'never small to me' people he loves. We know he will let them sink or swim according to their own choices and not just assume control like a parent of a defenceless child. He will let them be free to make the mistake or the right choice and be there afterwards, still around.
Bit silly the whole moon egg thing. But the story is bigger than that. The themes are bigger than that. The development of the Doctor/Companion relationship is bigger than that.
The show is growing up a little. Growing up hurts. And no doubt some terrible story will soon make me regret my thoughts here, at least temporarily.
And if you feel I saw a different episode to you, watch it again. Now you know which bits you find daft or unbelievable, you've had your knee jerk reaction. Now take a look at the other stuff going on.
I liked it, I feel it did something new. Something a little risky. And I feel it paid off. So there.
What we are seeing is almost a return to the original Who format where is was, in essence, a childrens programme about explaining history, the possibilities of the future, responsibilities and people. (and not a love story in space)
A child watching that episode would have perhaps learnt the following:
Everything changes.
The unknown doesn't mean it is scary or wants to hurt you just because you don't understand it.
When you are frightened you might make stupid, stupid decisions that could impact on your future.
Go with your gut feeling and your own thoughts and beliefs instead of doing what all the other people want you to do.
You can be special just by sticking to what you believe is right.
Lots of people deciding something doesn't mean it's correct and the right thing to do.
Don't rely on other people to make the decisions you have to make, you have to decide yourself.
We have a responsibility of looking after endangered species who cannot protect themselves from what other humans do to them.
Just because something is different from you doesn't give you the right to kill it.
There are things out there that are different to us humans.
Nature can be weird.
When you are wrong say sorry.
And when someone stops you doing something silly and stupid, say thank you.
You don't even get that in most whole series of some programmes, let alone one episode!
Good on you, Doctor Who!
Great comments. This episode had a real old school sci fi episode to it - moral diemma, good moments of dialogue, moments of letting the scene "hang". It also reminded me of some of the themes explored in recent New Who episodes. Capaldi nailed it in this episode.
I loved this episode, the whole moon is an egg thing was a bit weird I must admit, but there were so many great deep adult themes in this episode:
When the first "lunar-tic" (great one Minky (!)) kills the guy in the base, one of the side doors opens. The Doctor yells run, he escapes and never tries to save the other guy and by now we know why Capaldi is like this, its too late to save him. Hermiones' character afterwards is in tears, thinking about the loss of life and what it means to lose her mentor. Courtney suddenly gets over the 99.9% moment of triumph and realises whats going on, she wants out she can't take it either. Meanwhile, -> The Doctor is mega excited, this is a puzzle and he can solve it, he must find the latest crack on the moon and investigate. In this scene Capaldi cemented his version of the Doctor, totally oblivious on the outside to the feelings of everyone about them, not because he doesn't care - he was just thinking of the bigger picture - solving the problem.
Later on, he explains to everyone what he has discovered and what is going on. This time, HE cares - he obviously feels the creature should be saved, he is ever so slightly riled with Hermione. Courtney wants to return from her safe place and be part of the danger again because she has empathy for the Moon too, just as Clara (they are special). The symmetry of these two scenes was really quite cool, suddenly the current human race (represented by Hermione) is the dark one, not the Doctor. Fuelled by the loss of her mentor she is enraged and can only think how she can blow it up. Thereafter the entire planet shows they feel the same way. This bit reminded me of Midnight.
The idea of being constrained by ones own fears comes in too as mentioned above, the Doctor has huge respect for Clara and feels she needs to given the opportunity to handle bigger situations. What makes her any less capable of making this huge choice, waiting for the Doctor to solve it, or delegating it to someone else like the President of the USA, thats just human conditioning and fear inside her. She is pushed to her limits, she starts crying as the Doctor walks out on them. It reminded me of how Donna had to FORCE Tennant to just go back to Pompeii and save one person atleast, she begs him in tears - almost the reverse of this episode as she forced the Doctor to skip all those fixed point in time rules holding him back and just save ONE person..
I feel the opening scene is quite important here. Clara tells the Doctor that he needs to tell Courtney she is special. I think the Doctor actually thinks both she and Clara are special but why say it. He rather uses psychology, he is super intelligent, he doesn't need to make it obvious. He probably told Courtney she wasn't special just so she wakes up and realises: actually I'll show this doc, I am special. They're just a little afraid to step out of the comfort zone and realise it. As events on the moon unravel, he sees it as the ideal opportunity to literally take off Claras' training wheels which have taken hold because she's now really afraid for her life., Courtneys' and everyone on earth, she truly believes she doesn't have it in her to come up with the idea to save everyone. Yet, its a decision he makes virtually all the time.
I love also how it creates SUCH a dynamic between Clara and the Doctor - real character and emotion, fantastic - that scene in the TARDIS was absolutely great. It reminded me a little of how Tegan felt when she saw all the death in her last episode, but I think this had so much more.
Finally - I'm now a little suspicious of Danny - my current wild theories are: - his secret is that he was in a similar situation and instead he didn't press the abort button - he didn't have the strength to say no to his superior and blew up an innocent life to save many other people. Alternately, he's just playing Clara all along, he is just playing Clara and has really been hoping a situation like this would happen so he could get Clara "on side" and start to sew anti-Doctor seeds.
I'm hoping it's the former, p.s. HE IS NOT THE MASTER, I just think its possible he may be upto no good..
he's just playing Clara all along, he is just playing Clara and has really been hoping a situation like this would happen so he could get Clara "on side" and start to sew anti-Doctor seeds.
Even though he is the BF that sound like the friendzoned guy who is just waiting for his friends BF to screw up so he can jump in and have a chance
No it isn't - the outcome has been explained in a previous post i.e. not that much would happen.
That's because it's TV there is no real jeopardy no moral dilemma. Does anyone really think the episode would have ended with the end of the human race? It they wanted a moral dilemma they could have done something along the ones of we can save the space chicken but at the cost of a billion lives, the Earth will continue the human race will continue but a billion will die.
I felt this was the first episode of this series I'd vote as low as 'bad'. I didn't mind the premise of the Moon being an egg, but there were several other aspects I didn't like.
The 'spiders' thing was pointless - a way to ramp up tension required only because the basic plot was too slow - the whole thing could have been over and done with in 15 minutes otherwise and probably been far more satisfying.
The pacing was off, probably for the same reason, and I felt the whole ending to be back to front - almost out with a whimper rather than a bang. I was left with a feeling of 'so Clara's left the Tardis, and by her own decision, far enough, what's next?' It didn't make me interested in watching how their relationship will continue, beyond an expectation of a very bad plot device in the next episode to bring them back together. I did like Danny's speech to Clara.
The inclusion of the girl seemed pointless to me as well, especially in an episode clearly not aimed at small children (spiders, broadcast time).
Overall, I just felt the episode didn't hang together very well. Setting aside it's blatant toshness, Robots of Sherwood was far more entertaining.
Didn't know whether to vote bad or poor what I really wanted was appalling. This was probably the worst storyline since McCoy. Only the excellence of Capaldi saves the programme just hope next weeks is better than the trailer made it look.
why did the doctor say the spider was the size of a badger tho ?
it was much bigger than a badger , was this supposed to be another one of those jokes about him getting things wrong ?
It's to prepare us for the big reveal of the Space Badgers in episode 12.
[Actually, the spider Courtney killed didn't look too far off the size of the badgers hereabouts. The spiders just look bigger with their legs extended.]
As to the episode itself, what can I say?
Capaldi was excellent, Coleman was adequate, both as usual.
BUT
I would rather watch Tegan and Nyssa give birth to Adric's babies and eat them raw (which would be wrong in so many ways) than watch another episode that displayed such scientific illiteracy as this one. If Moffatt can't hack the science, shouldn't he have some sort of "scientific advisor" who can?
Still, who knows what next Saturday's episode will bring?
It's to prepare us for the big reveal of the Space Badgers in episode 12.
[Actually, the spider Courtney killed didn't look too far off the size of the badgers hereabouts. The spiders just look bigger with their legs extended.]
As to the episode itself, what can I say?
Capaldi was excellent, Coleman was adequate, both as usual.
BUT
I would rather watch Tegan and Nyssa give birth to Adric's babies and eat them raw (which would be wrong in so many ways) than watch another episode that displayed such scientific illiteracy as this one. If Moffatt can't hack the science, shouldn't he have some sort of "scientific advisor" who can?
Still, who knows what next Saturday's episode will bring?
You're a bit sick, you know that? But I agree with you. ;-)
Actually I don't know why the programme is on later than it used to be if they're not going to go for cannibalism, massacre, rampant hot sex scenes and the Doctor swearing like Tucker. Why aren't they?
You're a bit sick, you know that? But I agree with you. ;-)
Actually I don't know why the programme is on later than it used to be if they're not going to go for cannibalism, massacre, rampant hot sex scenes and the Doctor swearing like Tucker. Why aren't they?
When they were all standing around rhapsodising on the beach at the end, I was longing for the sea to rise up and engulf everyone, followed by earthquakes and hurricanes etc, and for the Doctor and Clara to be forced to make a hurried exit in the Tardis as the remnants of the population of Earth attempted to garrotte them for being so stupid.
That would have been a lot more interesting than what happened. In fact, if the show really wanted to be "dark" then it should have had Clara make the wrong decision, resulting in millions of humans being killed and then the Doctor showing up to save the rest and the Earth.
Of course, that would never happen because Clara is The Most Important Companion Ever and she will always make the right decision and save the day. I can see the scenario now:
CLARA: Billions of humans decided to kill the creature but what do they know? I'm going to do it MY way. (stops countdown.)
Hundreds of millions of humans die as a result of tidal waves, earthquakes and other assorted disasters. The alien is then revealed to be an evil creature that eats all of the humans that are left. As the people of Earth die, each one curses Clara with their last breath.
CLARA: Now wait a minute! That's not right! My character always makes the right decisions and saves the day. Rewrite! Rewrite!
I voted "good". Moon premise a bit silly, spider bacteria very well realised, as was the use of Lanzarote for the moon's surface, space shuttle crash was a bit naff, but the biggest "shock" was the real emotion of Clara and the Doctor really seriously "falling out". Unexpected it was.
I still don't think Danny's up to anything more than being protective of Clara. He's no hidden agenda (Clara pursued him). I think he's likeable but struggles with self confidence and has issues caused by a "troubled past" (I speculate that the "officer class" put him in a no win situation and he couldn't save everyone), yet to be revealed.
A pity it was only Clara and Courtney who were special. The human race at large didn't seem to have learned anything and no-one made anything of that.
That would have been a lot more interesting than what happened. In fact, if the show really wanted to be "dark" then it should have had Clara make the wrong decision, resulting in millions of humans being killed and then the Doctor showing up to save the rest and the Earth.
Of course, that would never happen because Clara is The Most Important Companion Ever and she will always make the right decision and save the day. I can see the scenario now:
CLARA: Billions of humans decided to kill the creature but what do they know? I'm going to do it MY way. (stops countdown.)
Hundreds of millions of humans die as a result of tidal waves, earthquakes and other assorted disasters. The alien is then revealed to be an evil creature that eats all of the humans that are left. As the people of Earth die, each one curses Clara with their last breath.
CLARA: Now wait a minute! That's not right! My character always makes the right decisions and saves the day. Rewrite! Rewrite!
Doctor> It wouldn't have I disarmed it before I left
I think the whole point was that it has to humanity's decision. not blowing it up, seeing it hatch leads man to conquer the stars again (as they had previously given up on that idea).
of course the annoying thing (for me at least) is man DIDN'T make the decision. Clara did.
So she is single handily responsible for mankind's expansion into the universe!
That is not exclusive to Clara with the exception of Martha they have acted like every current companion is
That's one thing which has bugged me throughout the new series. In the old Whos the companions were largely fairly ordinary folk and were there to act as a human counterpart to the Doctor, to ask questions so he could explain the science-y and timey-wimey stuff for us, to sometimes be in peril needing the Doctor's expert help, to provide light relief, to be a partner and co-traveller and, yes, sometimes to provide a bit of eye candy.
But now they're often "special" and have a significance far in excess of being a travelling companion. And while I like the idea of investing more time and effort into creating really interesting and worthwhile companions for the Doctor it also feels, increasingly, rather contrived and forced.
I think the whole point was that it has to humanity's decision. not blowing it up, seeing it hatch leads man to conquer the stars again (as they had previously given up on that idea).
of course the annoying thing (for me at least) is man DIDN'T make the decision. Clara did.
So she is single handily responsible for mankind's expansion into the universe!
Umm not quiet - Courtney also jumped in to stop the bombs.
I also don't think Danny is up to anything - but I think we will find out he was put in that kind of situation and made what he feels was the wrong choice.
I think the whole point was that it has to humanity's decision. not blowing it up, seeing it hatch leads man to conquer the stars again (as they had previously given up on that idea).
of course the annoying thing (for me at least) is man DIDN'T make the decision. Clara did.
So she is single handily responsible for mankind's expansion into the universe!
Yes. Essentially, yes. I think it's crazy to keep elevating these companions to the role of demi-gods.
That is not exclusive to Clara with the exception of Martha they have acted like every current companion is
I have to disagree. While new Who has certainly made the companions more important and almost made the Doctor their sidekick, Clara has really been put up on a pedestal more than any other companion.
After all, no other companion has been shoved into the Classic series. No other companion comforted the Doctor as a child and put him on the road to becoming the man he is. No other companion led the Doctor around "on a leash" the way Moffat stated Clara did the 11th. I also believe Clara and River are the only two people who know the Doctor's real name. And there are plenty of other things that could be mentioned as well.
While Moffat obviously wants all three of his female companions to be very important, which is why he married the Doctor off to one of them and made another the Doctor's Mother-in-Law, I think he is particularly enamored with the Clara character and has gone off the deep end with her.
Comments
It seems both come and go.
That's the ending I would have loved to see (and let's face a more likely out come).
Great comments. This episode had a real old school sci fi episode to it - moral diemma, good moments of dialogue, moments of letting the scene "hang". It also reminded me of some of the themes explored in recent New Who episodes. Capaldi nailed it in this episode.
I loved this episode, the whole moon is an egg thing was a bit weird I must admit, but there were so many great deep adult themes in this episode:
When the first "lunar-tic" (great one Minky (!)) kills the guy in the base, one of the side doors opens. The Doctor yells run, he escapes and never tries to save the other guy and by now we know why Capaldi is like this, its too late to save him. Hermiones' character afterwards is in tears, thinking about the loss of life and what it means to lose her mentor. Courtney suddenly gets over the 99.9% moment of triumph and realises whats going on, she wants out she can't take it either. Meanwhile, -> The Doctor is mega excited, this is a puzzle and he can solve it, he must find the latest crack on the moon and investigate. In this scene Capaldi cemented his version of the Doctor, totally oblivious on the outside to the feelings of everyone about them, not because he doesn't care - he was just thinking of the bigger picture - solving the problem.
Later on, he explains to everyone what he has discovered and what is going on. This time, HE cares - he obviously feels the creature should be saved, he is ever so slightly riled with Hermione. Courtney wants to return from her safe place and be part of the danger again because she has empathy for the Moon too, just as Clara (they are special). The symmetry of these two scenes was really quite cool, suddenly the current human race (represented by Hermione) is the dark one, not the Doctor. Fuelled by the loss of her mentor she is enraged and can only think how she can blow it up. Thereafter the entire planet shows they feel the same way. This bit reminded me of Midnight.
The idea of being constrained by ones own fears comes in too as mentioned above, the Doctor has huge respect for Clara and feels she needs to given the opportunity to handle bigger situations. What makes her any less capable of making this huge choice, waiting for the Doctor to solve it, or delegating it to someone else like the President of the USA, thats just human conditioning and fear inside her. She is pushed to her limits, she starts crying as the Doctor walks out on them. It reminded me of how Donna had to FORCE Tennant to just go back to Pompeii and save one person atleast, she begs him in tears - almost the reverse of this episode as she forced the Doctor to skip all those fixed point in time rules holding him back and just save ONE person..
I feel the opening scene is quite important here. Clara tells the Doctor that he needs to tell Courtney she is special. I think the Doctor actually thinks both she and Clara are special but why say it. He rather uses psychology, he is super intelligent, he doesn't need to make it obvious. He probably told Courtney she wasn't special just so she wakes up and realises: actually I'll show this doc, I am special. They're just a little afraid to step out of the comfort zone and realise it. As events on the moon unravel, he sees it as the ideal opportunity to literally take off Claras' training wheels which have taken hold because she's now really afraid for her life., Courtneys' and everyone on earth, she truly believes she doesn't have it in her to come up with the idea to save everyone. Yet, its a decision he makes virtually all the time.
I love also how it creates SUCH a dynamic between Clara and the Doctor - real character and emotion, fantastic - that scene in the TARDIS was absolutely great. It reminded me a little of how Tegan felt when she saw all the death in her last episode, but I think this had so much more.
Finally - I'm now a little suspicious of Danny - my current wild theories are: - his secret is that he was in a similar situation and instead he didn't press the abort button - he didn't have the strength to say no to his superior and blew up an innocent life to save many other people. Alternately, he's just playing Clara all along, he is just playing Clara and has really been hoping a situation like this would happen so he could get Clara "on side" and start to sew anti-Doctor seeds.
I'm hoping it's the former, p.s. HE IS NOT THE MASTER, I just think its possible he may be upto no good..
No it isn't - the outcome has been explained in a previous post i.e. not that much would happen.
Even though he is the BF that sound like the friendzoned guy who is just waiting for his friends BF to screw up so he can jump in and have a chance
That's because it's TV there is no real jeopardy no moral dilemma. Does anyone really think the episode would have ended with the end of the human race? It they wanted a moral dilemma they could have done something along the ones of we can save the space chicken but at the cost of a billion lives, the Earth will continue the human race will continue but a billion will die.
The 'spiders' thing was pointless - a way to ramp up tension required only because the basic plot was too slow - the whole thing could have been over and done with in 15 minutes otherwise and probably been far more satisfying.
The pacing was off, probably for the same reason, and I felt the whole ending to be back to front - almost out with a whimper rather than a bang. I was left with a feeling of 'so Clara's left the Tardis, and by her own decision, far enough, what's next?' It didn't make me interested in watching how their relationship will continue, beyond an expectation of a very bad plot device in the next episode to bring them back together. I did like Danny's speech to Clara.
The inclusion of the girl seemed pointless to me as well, especially in an episode clearly not aimed at small children (spiders, broadcast time).
Overall, I just felt the episode didn't hang together very well. Setting aside it's blatant toshness, Robots of Sherwood was far more entertaining.
Looks a bit corny-a reworking of an old horror/supernatural myth on sci-fi basis.
It's to prepare us for the big reveal of the Space Badgers in episode 12.
[Actually, the spider Courtney killed didn't look too far off the size of the badgers hereabouts. The spiders just look bigger with their legs extended.]
As to the episode itself, what can I say?
Capaldi was excellent, Coleman was adequate, both as usual.
BUT
I would rather watch Tegan and Nyssa give birth to Adric's babies and eat them raw (which would be wrong in so many ways) than watch another episode that displayed such scientific illiteracy as this one. If Moffatt can't hack the science, shouldn't he have some sort of "scientific advisor" who can?
Still, who knows what next Saturday's episode will bring?
That's the episode I would pay good money to see
You're a bit sick, you know that? But I agree with you.
Actually I don't know why the programme is on later than it used to be if they're not going to go for cannibalism, massacre, rampant hot sex scenes and the Doctor swearing like Tucker. Why aren't they?
Good point Granny, I've no idea
That would have been a lot more interesting than what happened.
Of course, that would never happen because Clara is The Most Important Companion Ever and she will always make the right decision and save the day. I can see the scenario now:
CLARA: Billions of humans decided to kill the creature but what do they know? I'm going to do it MY way. (stops countdown.)
Hundreds of millions of humans die as a result of tidal waves, earthquakes and other assorted disasters. The alien is then revealed to be an evil creature that eats all of the humans that are left. As the people of Earth die, each one curses Clara with their last breath.
CLARA: Now wait a minute! That's not right! My character always makes the right decisions and saves the day. Rewrite! Rewrite!
That is not exclusive to Clara with the exception of Martha they have acted like every current companion is
I still don't think Danny's up to anything more than being protective of Clara. He's no hidden agenda (Clara pursued him). I think he's likeable but struggles with self confidence and has issues caused by a "troubled past" (I speculate that the "officer class" put him in a no win situation and he couldn't save everyone), yet to be revealed.
A pity it was only Clara and Courtney who were special. The human race at large didn't seem to have learned anything and no-one made anything of that.
This is the ending I want to see
I think the whole point was that it has to humanity's decision. not blowing it up, seeing it hatch leads man to conquer the stars again (as they had previously given up on that idea).
of course the annoying thing (for me at least) is man DIDN'T make the decision. Clara did.
So she is single handily responsible for mankind's expansion into the universe!
That's one thing which has bugged me throughout the new series. In the old Whos the companions were largely fairly ordinary folk and were there to act as a human counterpart to the Doctor, to ask questions so he could explain the science-y and timey-wimey stuff for us, to sometimes be in peril needing the Doctor's expert help, to provide light relief, to be a partner and co-traveller and, yes, sometimes to provide a bit of eye candy.
But now they're often "special" and have a significance far in excess of being a travelling companion. And while I like the idea of investing more time and effort into creating really interesting and worthwhile companions for the Doctor it also feels, increasingly, rather contrived and forced.
Umm not quiet - Courtney also jumped in to stop the bombs.
I also don't think Danny is up to anything - but I think we will find out he was put in that kind of situation and made what he feels was the wrong choice.
Yes. Essentially, yes. I think it's crazy to keep elevating these companions to the role of demi-gods.
I have to disagree. While new Who has certainly made the companions more important and almost made the Doctor their sidekick, Clara has really been put up on a pedestal more than any other companion.
After all, no other companion has been shoved into the Classic series. No other companion comforted the Doctor as a child and put him on the road to becoming the man he is. No other companion led the Doctor around "on a leash" the way Moffat stated Clara did the 11th. I also believe Clara and River are the only two people who know the Doctor's real name. And there are plenty of other things that could be mentioned as well.
While Moffat obviously wants all three of his female companions to be very important, which is why he married the Doctor off to one of them and made another the Doctor's Mother-in-Law, I think he is particularly enamored with the Clara character and has gone off the deep end with her.