We don't really know a lot about life beyond the thirteenth regeneration because the Doctor appears to be the first Time Lord to get that far, although he does know that it begins with a 'reset', which implies at least one prescient. .
The Master was given a new cycle Prof YANA was his first incarnation in a new cycle and when he told The Doctor he just said "They gave me a new cycle" and The Doctor didn't act shocked or like it was imposable
Rassilon was brought back for the time war and given a new cycle again it wasn't a shock to The Doctor
So I think it's rare but common knowledge it can be done if need be
Plus those 2 examples also show a Time Lord can be dead for 1000's a years but be brought back if the other Time Lords want them to be
The Master was given a new cycle Prof YANA was his first incarnation in a new cycle and when he told The Doctor he just said "They gave me a new cycle" and The Doctor didn't act shocked or like it was imposable
Rassilon was brought back for the time war and given a new cycle again it wasn't a shock to The Doctor
So I think it's rare but common knowledge it can be done if need be
Plus those 2 examples also show a Time Lord can be dead for 1000's a years but be brought back if the other Time Lords want them to be
I did acknowledge that, my point was the details are all very vague about what is and isn't possible. What does seem clear to me is that only certain Time Lords are allowed to have them, and it was during the desperate context of the Time War that these took place.
When we last saw the Master, he said "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die.", which I took to mean he had lost his ability to regenerate. If he could still regenerate, surely he'd get a new body and he wouldn't have to complain about being "stuck looking like the old Prime Minister".
Rassilon was resurrected in a new body (not the Don Warrington model), but it's never said he had a new cycle.
When we last saw the Master, he said "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die.", which I took to mean he had lost his ability to regenerate. If he could still regenerate, surely he'd get a new body and he wouldn't have to complain about being "stuck looking like the old Prime Minister".
When he got shot he chose not to regenerate even if it was to stick two fingers up to The Doctor but he thought he had a back up plan to come back anyway but that got messed up by his wife and that's when that body became unstable and unable to regenerate.
I think his plan was come back then regenerate or maybe the regeneration would have been automatic maybe he was regenerating when his wife interfered and that's why his body was like that it was stuck in mid regeneration it would explain the energy bolts
Doctor said in tonight's episode, that he could possibly regenerate forever. That's the next forty years sorted for me
I think he just *may* have been joking! If this script really was an old Matt Smith one, remember the stuff he came out with about 507 generations?
When the Doctor's rambling, 99% of it is probably just throwaway lines to distract other people, not to be taken literally.
When we last saw the Master, he said "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die.", which I took to mean he had lost his ability to regenerate.
I think that was just him being a tad dramatic.
By the same standard, one of the Doctor's could have said "This body was born out of war - all it can do is kill" - but it wouldn't make it true.
By the same standard, one of the Doctor's could have said "This body was born out of war - all it can do is kill" - but it wouldn't make it true.
I don't think it is the same standard. Death by decay is a natural process that you can't usually avoid whereas killing others in a war is a military decision that you can conscientiously object to.
The master is frustrated that "The master of disguise" is "stuck looking like the old Prime Minister" and complains that he "can't hide anywhere". So if he could still regenerate, why doesn't he? Like James Frederick said, the last time he had the chance he refused to regenerate and died. He was later resurrected, but it goes wrong. Compare this to the Doctor being resurrected by the Sisterhood of Karn - the fact that he'd been revived didn't bring back his regenerative abilities, he had to drink the potion to do that. The Doctor tells the master "Your resurrection went wrong. That energy. Your body's ripped open. Now you're killing yourself. "
While we're on the subject of The End Of Time, since Rassilon was sent back into the time war and since Gallifrey was put into a pocket universe on the last day of the time war, I would have liked to see Rassilon's face when the Time Lords gave the Doctor a new regeneration cycle, especially since he imposed the limit in the first place!
I don't think it is the same standard. Death by decay is a natural process that you can't usually avoid whereas killing others in a war is a military decision that you can conscientiously object to.
You're missing the most important point - he's a Timelord and "this body" may refer to that SPECIFIC body - which can be replaced with a new one at some point.
You're missing the most important point - he's a Timelord and "this body" may refer to that SPECIFIC body - which can be replaced with a new one at some point.
And again I ask, if he could do that, why doesn't he? Why doesn't he regenerate into a body the public won't recognise, which is clearly what he wants to do?
And again I ask, if he could do that, why doesn't he? Why doesn't he regenerate into a body the public won't recognise, which is clearly what he wants to do?
Where do you get the claim that "he clearly wants to" do that - bearing in mind that he'd just changed the ENTIRE human race into copies of himself and was also mentally unstable.
Where do you get the claim that "he clearly wants to" do that - bearing in mind that he'd just changed the ENTIRE human race into copies of himself and was also mentally unstable.
The exchange in Part 1:
GINGER: You look like that bloke. Harold Saxon? The one that went mad.
MASTER: Now isn't that funny. Isn't that just the best thing of all. The master of disguise, stuck looking like the old Prime Minister. I can't hide anywhere. He can see me. He can smell me. Can't let him smell me. Doctor, Doctor, shocked her, stopped her, got to stop the smell. The stink. The filthy, filthy stink.
The Master's MO, or at least his favourite way of doing things is to infiltrate a company/factory or government (as Colonel Masters, Emil Keller, Harry Saxon etc) and hypnotise the workforce etc. However as Harold Saxon he hypnotised the NATION, and now can't go anywhere without being recognised. Additionally, although the Doctor will eventually recognise him whatever body he's wearing, he can at least delay the moment by changing his appearance. He is, in his own words 'stuck' looking like the Prime Minister. The only reason he gets involved with the Immortality Gate is because the Naismiths recognise him.
So why doesn't he change? I know he has an ego, but he's also being ripped apart by a failed resurrection process and if he really has ten or eleven regenerations left, it's a reasonable reason as any to undergo a change if it means carrying out a plan.
He can't because he's already dead. He died in The Last Of The Time Lords. Now he's just an animated corpse. Animated corpses don't regenerate, hence the comment about his body "All it can do is die".
To clarify, his body can regenerate because "all it can do is die". Clear?
This is a bit off topic anyway, I was mainly talking about how the fact that he was given new regeneration showed a progression in how the attitude to giving out new cycles had become more lax during the Time War because they needed soldiers/warriors.
It does kind of make sense that they'd give him more than 13, knowing how quickly he burns through them all.
However, they'd also know how capable he is, and how he'll quite possibly find them soon anyway. I mean, it didn't take him long once he knew Gallifrey might have survived, the only reason he didn't help them come through was because of the danger.
The Master's MO, or at least his favourite way of doing things is to...
...keep regenerating with the same face - he's always been a big fan of doing that. As far as we were shown, the only time he didn't regenerate as president of the Emperor Ming fan club was when he wiped his mind and went into hiding as Yana.
...keep regenerating with the same face - he's always been a big fan of doing that. As far as we were shown, the only time he didn't regenerate as president of the Emperor Ming fan club was when he wiped his mind and went into hiding as Yana.
Um, what? Are you implying that every time he escaped from somewhere (i.e Castrovalva), that he regenerated??
Anyway, I don't know how many more ways I can explain this. The Master's resurrection goes wrong. If he doesn't find a cure he will die. The Doctor initially believes the Master used the Gate to restore himself, "The Gate wasn't enough. You're still dying"
to which the Master gives the unambiguous reply "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die."
He simply wouldn't say that if he could regenerate, because that would mean there is TWO THINGS his body can do - regenerate or die.
Um, what? Are you implying that every time he escaped from somewhere (i.e Castrovalva), that he regenerated??
Anyway, I don't know how many more ways I can explain this. The Master's resurrection goes wrong. If he doesn't find a cure he will die. The Doctor initially believes the Master used the Gate to restore himself, "The Gate wasn't enough. You're still dying"
to which the Master gives the unambiguous reply "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die."
He simply wouldn't say that if he could regenerate, because that would mean there is TWO THINGS his body can do - regenerate or die.
Not IMPLYING anything - it was always part of the Master's story that he regenerated into the same face and would frequently wear a disguise and use false names to hide his identity. It's also been stated that the Master exceeded his set number of regenerations.
And the resurrection was not explained in the show so saying that he was "just an animated corpse" is your guess - nothing else.
We'll know if your guess is good when they broadcast the last ever episode of Doctor Who and the Master has not been in the show since we last saw him scrapping with Rassilon. My money's on him being back well before then.
Not IMPLYING anything - it was always part of the Master's story that he regenerated into the same face and would frequently wear a disguise and use false names to hide his identity. It's also been stated that the Master exceeded his set number of regenerations.
And the resurrection was not explained in the show so saying that he was "just an animated corpse" is your guess - nothing else.
We'll know if your guess is good when they broadcast the last ever episode of Doctor Who and the Master has not been in the show since we last saw him scrapping with Rassilon. My money's on him being back well before then.
Blimey, this conversation has taken a strange turn. Enlighten me then, when did the Master regenerate into the same face? Was it actually described as such on screen, or is that your guess?
and FYI I don't doubt that the Master will get his regenerations back in the future, just that he didn't have any during The End Of Time. His was very much like his Deadly Assassin persona - crumbling to bits!
Blimey, this conversation has taken a strange turn. Enlighten me then, when did the Master regenerate into the same face? Was it actually described as such on screen, or is that your guess?
and FYI I don't doubt that the Master will get his regenerations back in the future, just that he didn't have any during The End Of Time. His was very much like his Deadly Assassin persona - crumbling to bits!
I don't think that's been established on-screen. If anything we've seen the opposite twice: the Master keeping the same regeneration but changing his body: once in Traken and once in San Francisco.
Not IMPLYING anything - it was always part of the Master's story that he regenerated into the same face and would frequently wear a disguise and use false names to hide his identity. It's also been stated that the Master exceeded his set number of regenerations.
The first Master we see on screen was already at his final regeneration, I believe. He wasn't able to regenerate at that point either, which is why his subsequent incarnations were stolen bodies.
Or to put it another way, Derek Jacobi's transformation was the only time we've ever seen the Master regenerate.
Moffat does like throwing in things like that as he does think forums over-analyse and simply read too much into things.
Or phrased another way...
Moffat knows that some people enjoy discussing potential outcomes and strives to provide them with content for that harmless pleasure and those people are actually analysing the plots and scripts to exactly the right extent and they should not be repeatedly insulted and belittled by people who lack the skills to spot those features and to then discuss and debate them in a friendly, open-minded environment.
Seriously - if someone writes something with the intention that it be discussed, how on earth can anyone slag them off for doing exactly that?
And just this once - define OVER-analysing. Tell us - JUST THIS ONCE - what is the RIGHT amount of analysing and who gets to define that limit. Then JUST THIS ONCE - since you've clearly been keeping track of other people's posts in order to arriuve at your conclusion - give us a list of posts that UNDER-analyse episodes - based on your scale.
Basically - please stop insulting other DS members just because you don't approve of their level of interest in plotting.
The first Master we see on screen was already at his final regeneration, I believe. He wasn't able to regenerate at that point either, which is why his subsequent incarnations were stolen bodies.
Or to put it another way, Derek Jacobi's transformation was the only time we've ever seen the Master regenerate.
Yup, Delgado was the "13th Master", the Pratt/Beevers Master was the product of a failed attempt at a thirteenth regeneration .... incarnation Thirteen-and-a-half if you will.
Ainley was a stolen body (that of Nyssa's Father, Tremas) to finish the process off, So I suppose you could call him the Master's Fourteenth Incarnation proper.
I don't know if Gordon Tipple is supposed to be the Ainley Master or not in the TV Movie before he takes over Eric Roberts' body... (presumably he is because of the "Mister Saxon. = Master No. Six," thing ... with John Simm being the 6th on-screen Master after 1.Delgado, 2.Pratt/Beevers, 3.Ainley/Tipple, 4.Roberts and 5.Jacobi)
...but again, it's all stealing bodies and prolonging his life by whatever means he can find.
So really then there are only 2 classic series Masters....
The 13th Master played by Delgado
The 14th Master played by Pratt/Beevers, Ainley/Tipple and Roberts (It's all the same character inside)
... So unless he found a means of undergoing an actual regeneration before the Time War, that would make the first incarnation of his second life-cycle (Jacobi) the 15 Master and John Simm's incarnation the 16th.
Comments
The Master was given a new cycle Prof YANA was his first incarnation in a new cycle and when he told The Doctor he just said "They gave me a new cycle" and The Doctor didn't act shocked or like it was imposable
Rassilon was brought back for the time war and given a new cycle again it wasn't a shock to The Doctor
So I think it's rare but common knowledge it can be done if need be
Plus those 2 examples also show a Time Lord can be dead for 1000's a years but be brought back if the other Time Lords want them to be
I did acknowledge that, my point was the details are all very vague about what is and isn't possible. What does seem clear to me is that only certain Time Lords are allowed to have them, and it was during the desperate context of the Time War that these took place.
When we last saw the Master, he said "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die.", which I took to mean he had lost his ability to regenerate. If he could still regenerate, surely he'd get a new body and he wouldn't have to complain about being "stuck looking like the old Prime Minister".
Rassilon was resurrected in a new body (not the Don Warrington model), but it's never said he had a new cycle.
When he got shot he chose not to regenerate even if it was to stick two fingers up to The Doctor but he thought he had a back up plan to come back anyway but that got messed up by his wife and that's when that body became unstable and unable to regenerate.
I think his plan was come back then regenerate or maybe the regeneration would have been automatic maybe he was regenerating when his wife interfered and that's why his body was like that it was stuck in mid regeneration it would explain the energy bolts
I think he just *may* have been joking! If this script really was an old Matt Smith one, remember the stuff he came out with about 507 generations?
When the Doctor's rambling, 99% of it is probably just throwaway lines to distract other people, not to be taken literally.
I think that was just him being a tad dramatic.
By the same standard, one of the Doctor's could have said "This body was born out of war - all it can do is kill" - but it wouldn't make it true.
I don't think it is the same standard. Death by decay is a natural process that you can't usually avoid whereas killing others in a war is a military decision that you can conscientiously object to.
The master is frustrated that "The master of disguise" is "stuck looking like the old Prime Minister" and complains that he "can't hide anywhere". So if he could still regenerate, why doesn't he? Like James Frederick said, the last time he had the chance he refused to regenerate and died. He was later resurrected, but it goes wrong. Compare this to the Doctor being resurrected by the Sisterhood of Karn - the fact that he'd been revived didn't bring back his regenerative abilities, he had to drink the potion to do that. The Doctor tells the master "Your resurrection went wrong. That energy. Your body's ripped open. Now you're killing yourself. "
While we're on the subject of The End Of Time, since Rassilon was sent back into the time war and since Gallifrey was put into a pocket universe on the last day of the time war, I would have liked to see Rassilon's face when the Time Lords gave the Doctor a new regeneration cycle, especially since he imposed the limit in the first place!
You're missing the most important point - he's a Timelord and "this body" may refer to that SPECIFIC body - which can be replaced with a new one at some point.
And again I ask, if he could do that, why doesn't he? Why doesn't he regenerate into a body the public won't recognise, which is clearly what he wants to do?
Where do you get the claim that "he clearly wants to" do that - bearing in mind that he'd just changed the ENTIRE human race into copies of himself and was also mentally unstable.
The exchange in Part 1:
GINGER: You look like that bloke. Harold Saxon? The one that went mad.
MASTER: Now isn't that funny. Isn't that just the best thing of all. The master of disguise, stuck looking like the old Prime Minister. I can't hide anywhere. He can see me. He can smell me. Can't let him smell me. Doctor, Doctor, shocked her, stopped her, got to stop the smell. The stink. The filthy, filthy stink.
The Master's MO, or at least his favourite way of doing things is to infiltrate a company/factory or government (as Colonel Masters, Emil Keller, Harry Saxon etc) and hypnotise the workforce etc. However as Harold Saxon he hypnotised the NATION, and now can't go anywhere without being recognised. Additionally, although the Doctor will eventually recognise him whatever body he's wearing, he can at least delay the moment by changing his appearance. He is, in his own words 'stuck' looking like the Prime Minister. The only reason he gets involved with the Immortality Gate is because the Naismiths recognise him.
So why doesn't he change? I know he has an ego, but he's also being ripped apart by a failed resurrection process and if he really has ten or eleven regenerations left, it's a reasonable reason as any to undergo a change if it means carrying out a plan.
He can't because he's already dead. He died in The Last Of The Time Lords. Now he's just an animated corpse. Animated corpses don't regenerate, hence the comment about his body "All it can do is die".
To clarify, his body can regenerate because "all it can do is die". Clear?
This is a bit off topic anyway, I was mainly talking about how the fact that he was given new regeneration showed a progression in how the attitude to giving out new cycles had become more lax during the Time War because they needed soldiers/warriors.
However, they'd also know how capable he is, and how he'll quite possibly find them soon anyway. I mean, it didn't take him long once he knew Gallifrey might have survived, the only reason he didn't help them come through was because of the danger.
...keep regenerating with the same face - he's always been a big fan of doing that. As far as we were shown, the only time he didn't regenerate as president of the Emperor Ming fan club was when he wiped his mind and went into hiding as Yana.
Um, what?
Anyway, I don't know how many more ways I can explain this. The Master's resurrection goes wrong. If he doesn't find a cure he will die. The Doctor initially believes the Master used the Gate to restore himself, "The Gate wasn't enough. You're still dying"
to which the Master gives the unambiguous reply "This body was born out of death. All it can do is die."
He simply wouldn't say that if he could regenerate, because that would mean there is TWO THINGS his body can do - regenerate or die.
Not IMPLYING anything - it was always part of the Master's story that he regenerated into the same face and would frequently wear a disguise and use false names to hide his identity. It's also been stated that the Master exceeded his set number of regenerations.
And the resurrection was not explained in the show so saying that he was "just an animated corpse" is your guess - nothing else.
We'll know if your guess is good when they broadcast the last ever episode of Doctor Who and the Master has not been in the show since we last saw him scrapping with Rassilon. My money's on him being back well before then.
Blimey, this conversation has taken a strange turn. Enlighten me then, when did the Master regenerate into the same face? Was it actually described as such on screen, or is that your guess?
and FYI I don't doubt that the Master will get his regenerations back in the future, just that he didn't have any during The End Of Time. His was very much like his Deadly Assassin persona - crumbling to bits!
I don't think that's been established on-screen. If anything we've seen the opposite twice: the Master keeping the same regeneration but changing his body: once in Traken and once in San Francisco.
Or to put it another way, Derek Jacobi's transformation was the only time we've ever seen the Master regenerate.
Moffat does like throwing in things like that as he does think forums over-analyse and simply read too much into things.
Or phrased another way...
Moffat knows that some people enjoy discussing potential outcomes and strives to provide them with content for that harmless pleasure and those people are actually analysing the plots and scripts to exactly the right extent and they should not be repeatedly insulted and belittled by people who lack the skills to spot those features and to then discuss and debate them in a friendly, open-minded environment.
Seriously - if someone writes something with the intention that it be discussed, how on earth can anyone slag them off for doing exactly that?
And just this once - define OVER-analysing. Tell us - JUST THIS ONCE - what is the RIGHT amount of analysing and who gets to define that limit. Then JUST THIS ONCE - since you've clearly been keeping track of other people's posts in order to arriuve at your conclusion - give us a list of posts that UNDER-analyse episodes - based on your scale.
Basically - please stop insulting other DS members just because you don't approve of their level of interest in plotting.
Yup, Delgado was the "13th Master", the Pratt/Beevers Master was the product of a failed attempt at a thirteenth regeneration .... incarnation Thirteen-and-a-half if you will.
Ainley was a stolen body (that of Nyssa's Father, Tremas) to finish the process off, So I suppose you could call him the Master's Fourteenth Incarnation proper.
I don't know if Gordon Tipple is supposed to be the Ainley Master or not in the TV Movie before he takes over Eric Roberts' body...
(presumably he is because of the "Mister Saxon. = Master No. Six," thing ... with John Simm being the 6th on-screen Master after 1.Delgado, 2.Pratt/Beevers, 3.Ainley/Tipple, 4.Roberts and 5.Jacobi)
...but again, it's all stealing bodies and prolonging his life by whatever means he can find.
So really then there are only 2 classic series Masters....
The 13th Master played by Delgado
The 14th Master played by Pratt/Beevers, Ainley/Tipple and Roberts (It's all the same character inside)
... So unless he found a means of undergoing an actual regeneration before the Time War, that would make the first incarnation of his second life-cycle (Jacobi) the 15 Master and John Simm's incarnation the 16th.