Good songs, rather than good singing, is far more important in ensuring a long term successful career in the music business.
And the X Factor doesn't look for people who can write good songs.
No but if they find someone with above average potential, they get people who can write good songs for them or with them. Those who they don't think are worth the effort, they give the dregs that are lying around on their songwriters books that no one else wants to record.
Leonas second album has been a disaster - she was lucky her tour did well with very little promotion.
Double platinum 2nd album is not a disaster lol. Not to mention a 20 date very successful arena tour, and of course, closing song of the biggest film ever, and my hands selected for final fantasy game, at the moment Leona is recording her 3rd album. If all this is a disaster, then God help us all.
And their exposure is that valuable when all the creativity and control is removed?
What about when the exposure eventually dies down - They are back to when they started....
As a musican in small Classic rock band, I would hate to see our material being thrown out and having to pen music we wouldn't dare think of playing to make some greedy A&R guy happy- in other words selling out.
Double platinum 2nd album is not a disaster lol. Not to mention a 20 date very successful arena tour, and of course, closing song of the biggest film ever, and my hands selected for final fantasy game, at the moment Leona is recording her 3rd album. If all this is a disaster, then God help us all.
Because very very few people have massive pop careers. People like Steve, Leon and Joe aren't obvious pop stars anyway and winning X Factor doesn't change that. The success to failure ratio in the music industry is pretty bleak. Then you have the potential for management screw ups like Shayne Ward.
It's the same in the US. 9 Idols, 2 already dropped and 4 on the ropes. But they've found a couple of stars with Carrie & Kelly and David Cook's debut did well although that was 2 years ago now. In comparison to the music industry as a whole, they're still batting above average.
Again, you've got a situation where finalists are out-selling the winners. Adam Lambert has done far better than Kris Allen and Chris Daughtry has done far better than Taylor Hicks. In fact, after Carrie & Kelly, he's the most successful of the lot.
And people forget this. Maybe because it's so high profile, but when people think of flash-in-the pan acts they think of x-factor. And yet, there are plenty of acts that have successful first albums and don't go on to match it with their next - K T Tunstall, Amy MacDonald, Macy Gray who was the Next. Big. Thing for all of five minutes, and it's looking like Duffy will seriously underperform this era compared to her last.
The music industry is pretty fickle. The acts that go on to have high-profile careers lasting 20 years or more are actually in the minority, and that's not just including x-factor acts.
Double platinum 2nd album is not a disaster lol. Not to mention a 20 date very successful arena tour, and of course, closing song of the biggest film ever, and my hands selected for final fantasy game, at the moment Leona is recording her 3rd album. If all this is a disaster, then God help us all.
She's had a good year but is that enough when she will be ultimately judged by her peers i.e other artists, newspapers etc
If her material was so solid she could do a Kylie or Madonna.
And people forget this. Maybe because it's so high profile, but when people think of flash-in-the pan acts they think of x-factor. And yet, there are plenty of acts that have successful first albums and don't go on to match it with their next - K T Tunstall, Amy MacDonald, Macy Gray who was the Next. Big. Thing for all of five minutes, and it's looking like Duffy will seriously underperform this era compared to her last.
The music industry is pretty fickle. The acts that go on to have high-profile careers lasting 20 years or more are actually in the minority, and that's not just including x-factor acts.
Completely agree. And remember all those instrument playing, song writing indie bands of 2006 who did plenty of touring (just as Elton John would like!)?
Razorlight, The Kooks, Kaiser Chiefs... - they couldn't give their last albums away.
Double platinum 2nd album is not a disaster lol. Not to mention a 20 date very successful arena tour, and of course, closing song of the biggest film ever, and my hands selected for final fantasy game, at the moment Leona is recording her 3rd album. If all this is a disaster, then God help us all.
The problem with her album was that sales were heavily front-loaded. It didn't have a long chart run and fell out of the top 100 far too quickly after x-factor wrapped. Even her tour didn't do anything for it. They seem to have lost interest after I Got You didn't do much and abandoned the whole era.
It's a shame, because Echo is streaks ahead in terms of quality compared to Spirit, and deserved to do much better. But sales were still good, as you say.
Sickpuppy, Leona still has a high profile abroad, she was brilliant at Rock in Rio in Portugal just a short while ago, and still has big endorsements in USA. I agree, that Echo could have been managed better, without a shadow of doubt, but many artists would kill for those sales. I think you will find this will all change with the 3rd album. By the way, I was at the Cardiff tour, and the audience raised the roof, the tour performance was brilliant. Leona is here for the duration. Leona is still charting in Europe as well.
And their exposure is that valuable when all the creativity and control is removed?
What about when the exposure eventually dies down - They are back to when they started....
As a musican in small Classic rock band, I would hate to see our material being thrown out and having to pen music we wouldn't dare think of playing to make some greedy A&R guy happy- in other words selling out.
Yes pretty much. Those boys in OD are having a great time. They don't care about the integrity of it all.
Good for you with your band but some people just want fame and money and see the XF as an avenue for that. Not saying it's right but that's how it is.
All Fair points but what about the likes of Kylie, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston etc.
Janet Jackson - very talented singer AND songwriter, being part of the Jackson dynasty is not a hindrance.
Madonna - the original chameleon, again very talented, unique with unbelievable stage presence
Whitney - unbelievable voice back in the day, having Dionne Warwick as your auntie is a pretty good pedigree.
Kylie - The jury's out for me, good stage presence but fairly forgettable vocalist. I'd pay to see the others but not her.
During the 7 X factor series, have there been any acts that come close to some of the above?
The music business is very disposable today. In the 80's when you signed with a label you inevitably signed a 5 album deal. They recognised your talent and you served an apprenticeship gigging and writing, developing your fan base. Nowadays if your first single flops you are dumped.
It's always been about making money, but not in the way that the ruthless Cowell runs his business, it really is a case of here today......tomorrow everyone is saying, do you remember so and so. Cowell is destroying the British music business, he'll deny it of course, but he is!!!
It's a question that is driving the not only the Xmas No.1 battle, but the rise of Wagner etc. Why dont the winner's go on to have massive and long term success?
After all these 'artists' are given a record contract and access to the top PR people and A&R executives yet they always seem to flop afer about a year (conviently around the same time as the next series of X factor).There have been so many who have dropped into the void it's difficult to list them all.
Same thing goes for David Sneddon, Alex Parkes and Michelle McManus - all disappeared. Will never forget Pete Waterman barging out when Michelle won, he couldn't beliieve what he was hearing and I have never seen him as a judge on a talent show since myself
The problem with her album was that sales were heavily front-loaded. It didn't have a long chart run and fell out of the top 100 far too quickly after x-factor wrapped. Even her tour didn't do anything for it. They seem to have lost interest after I Got You didn't do much and abandoned the whole era.
It's a shame, because Echo is streaks ahead in terms of quality compared to Spirit, and deserved to do much better. But sales were still good, as you say.
Lol, I agree stargirl, I much prefer Echo to Spirit, and I think her management definitely lost the plot during the Echo period, but I still believe she will be back bigger and stronger for the 3rd album.
I also believe that Alex will be here for the long haul as well.
Sickpuppy, Leona still has a high profile abroad, she was brilliant at Rock in Rio in Portugal just a short while ago, and still has big endorsements in USA. I agree, that Echo could have been managed better, without a shadow of doubt, but many artists would kill for those sales. I think you will find this will all change with the 3rd album. By the way, I was at the Cardiff tour, and the audience raised the roof, the tour performance was brilliant. Leona is here for the duration. Leona is still charting in Europe as well.
Heres the issue - If she was dedicated to her music as others as are she wouldn't give a monkeys how much it sold.
Apart from Leona Lewis and Alexandra Burke, who IMO do have good voices (especially when compared to Biffa Cole)
If you look at talent that has survived for 30 years plus, have huge fan bases, international appeal etc
It comes down to a few common denominators, i.e
Elton John/Sting/Beatles/Oasis/Stones/Coldplay/Bryan Adams/Queen/Bowie
They are ORIGINAL, they play a multitude of instruments AND they write their own material.
They have real and genuine talent, they are chameleon like in that they can change and adapt. They are not reliant on someone writing their own hits ala Stock, Aitken, Waterman hit factory type tosh.
I laugh when I read headlines like "One Direction, are they the new Beatles ?"........it's a complete joke, never in a million years will those young lads waiting for their testicles to drop ever have a fraction of the all round abilities of The Beatles. Even Ringo, who had a few token songs over the years as lead vocalist, who most people would accept, at best had a "quirky" voice, can out sing any of the the kids in 1D. On saturday they only let three of them sing.....that speaks volumes. I suspect they can't even spell "Harmony" never mind put it into practise vocally.
Tosh.
Elvis didn't write his own material. Madonna doesn't write most of her own material. Frank Sinatra didn't write his own material. Diana Ross doesn't write her own material. Kylie doesn't write her own material. Tom Jones doesn't write most of his own material. Loads of enormously successful acts don't write their own stuff, or play instruments – or sometimes even have that great a voice. They have the X factor though, and great songs, and that's what matters.
I do love the fact that you list Bryan Adams up there as one of the greats along with Queen, Bowie and Elton John though. Lol
Joe, Leon and Steve (and Matt this year) were never going to be popstars - they were just flops waiting to happen. The fact that they won didn't change that. The X Factor can give people a leg up - it can't create something out of nothing. And ultimately it's up the artist to grab the chance they're given and seize it.
The Syco thing seems to ring true, plus i think the winners get dull quickly as the label shoehorns them into being the kinda of packaged disposable acts they can market and sell.
Also people often mention those who don't win, the curse-of-Syco not tainting them as it does the winners, but how many of the runners-up are doing well? None of them as far as I can tell. Stacey Solomon is reduced to reality TV shows with other wannabes, oncewas's and neverwillbe's, Diana Vickers has been processed and seems to sing nothing but bubblegum pop songs, not heard anything from the likes of Ruth Lorenzo and Laura White for ages either.
The only act that seems to have triumphed is JLS, but they are so contrived, it's a sad state of affairs watching the mobo's these days. One Direction will probably follow the same recipe and get spat-out the same way but it's highly doubtful they will do anything overly successful.
Some people are not meant to be pop stars. They may have the charm to win over a weekend audience on ITV but they will not sell records unless their song is incredible. Once they have the exposure they are given poor songs and their careers never recover. Look at Olly Murs. Two awful singles and an album that will sell but then his star will fall dramatically like Shayne Ward unless he has a 'bleeding Love' sized hit. It happened to Leon and it's happenign to Joe.
Yes pretty much. Those boys in OD are having a great time. They don't care about the integrity of it all.
Good for you with your band but some people just want fame and money and see the XF as an avenue for that. Not saying it's right but that's how it is.
1D and those like them are slightly different because they are so young and it can't be said they've explored other options but most people just want the opportunity to ply their trade and be able to present to bigger audiences, and I'm pretty certain it can be very frustrating to know you have the talent and still be turned away time and time again or not even given a hearing by record companies because you don't fit their mould.
Diana Vickers has been processed and seems to sing nothing but bubblegum pop songs, not heard anything from the likes of Ruth Lorenzo and Laura White for ages either.
Err.... what?
That's just a bizarre comment. Her (very successful) album isn't bubblegum pop in the slightest. She's gone a much less mainstream direction than almost any of the other X Factor people, in fact.
Heres the issue - If she was dedicated to her music as others as are she wouldn't give a monkeys how much it sold.
Lol, Leona is absolutely passionate about her music, that is why she won't compromise and bring out whatever is current, if the current style does not suit her. She is very genuine. Sales, surely, must play some sort of role, the record labels are here to make a profit. All artists are accountable whether they are from XF or not.
Joe, Leon and Steve (and Matt this year) were never going to be popstars - they were just flops waiting to happen. The fact that they won didn't change that. The X Factor can give people a leg up - it can't create something out of nothing. And ultimately it's up the artist to grab the chance they're given and seize it.
So do they win or even get put through each week if they will probably flop when they enter the realm of the music business? Doesn't it reflect how poor quality control really is on this show.
What I think it is is that people have WAY too high expectations for winners of XF.
Leona sold worldwide between 1.5-2 million (don't know the exact figure anymore!). She didn't do good in the US this time around but she still sold that much worldwide. She had terrible label support in the US - virtually no radio play/tour, album dropped after one single etc. That single is gold certified - it reached #30 on sales alone pretty much. Had she had radio play and that would be in the top 20.
She had a sell out 20 date arena tour in the UK (which she made millions off) and sang the theme song to the biggest movie of all time, which is incidentally an American movie. She's had a US commercial and the theme song to the Final Fantasy game, as well as a duet with Jennifer Hudson for Sex and the City 2. She was again asked to be a part of the US 'Just Stand Up' television show to raise money for cancer research etc.
She's sold more here than the majority of UK artists, and more worldwide than the lot of them! The expectations people have of her are waaay too high; people need to see Spirit as an anomaly, not the norm. Nobody expected sales that big. So poor for her own high standards maybe, but not in general or compared to her 'peers'.
Comments
No but if they find someone with above average potential, they get people who can write good songs for them or with them. Those who they don't think are worth the effort, they give the dregs that are lying around on their songwriters books that no one else wants to record.
Double platinum 2nd album is not a disaster lol. Not to mention a 20 date very successful arena tour, and of course, closing song of the biggest film ever, and my hands selected for final fantasy game, at the moment Leona is recording her 3rd album. If all this is a disaster, then God help us all.
And their exposure is that valuable when all the creativity and control is removed?
What about when the exposure eventually dies down - They are back to when they started....
As a musican in small Classic rock band, I would hate to see our material being thrown out and having to pen music we wouldn't dare think of playing to make some greedy A&R guy happy- in other words selling out.
http://blog.divareport.com/2010/01/why-leona-lewis-flopped-in-us-second.html - She's lost a heck of an amount of momentum internationally, soon I fear that will whittle down to this country.
And people forget this. Maybe because it's so high profile, but when people think of flash-in-the pan acts they think of x-factor. And yet, there are plenty of acts that have successful first albums and don't go on to match it with their next - K T Tunstall, Amy MacDonald, Macy Gray who was the Next. Big. Thing for all of five minutes, and it's looking like Duffy will seriously underperform this era compared to her last.
The music industry is pretty fickle. The acts that go on to have high-profile careers lasting 20 years or more are actually in the minority, and that's not just including x-factor acts.
She's had a good year but is that enough when she will be ultimately judged by her peers i.e other artists, newspapers etc
If her material was so solid she could do a Kylie or Madonna.
Completely agree. And remember all those instrument playing, song writing indie bands of 2006 who did plenty of touring (just as Elton John would like!)?
Razorlight, The Kooks, Kaiser Chiefs... - they couldn't give their last albums away.
The problem with her album was that sales were heavily front-loaded. It didn't have a long chart run and fell out of the top 100 far too quickly after x-factor wrapped. Even her tour didn't do anything for it. They seem to have lost interest after I Got You didn't do much and abandoned the whole era.
It's a shame, because Echo is streaks ahead in terms of quality compared to Spirit, and deserved to do much better. But sales were still good, as you say.
Yes pretty much. Those boys in OD are having a great time. They don't care about the integrity of it all.
Good for you with your band but some people just want fame and money and see the XF as an avenue for that. Not saying it's right but that's how it is.
Janet Jackson - very talented singer AND songwriter, being part of the Jackson dynasty is not a hindrance.
Madonna - the original chameleon, again very talented, unique with unbelievable stage presence
Whitney - unbelievable voice back in the day, having Dionne Warwick as your auntie is a pretty good pedigree.
Kylie - The jury's out for me, good stage presence but fairly forgettable vocalist. I'd pay to see the others but not her.
During the 7 X factor series, have there been any acts that come close to some of the above?
The music business is very disposable today. In the 80's when you signed with a label you inevitably signed a 5 album deal. They recognised your talent and you served an apprenticeship gigging and writing, developing your fan base. Nowadays if your first single flops you are dumped.
It's always been about making money, but not in the way that the ruthless Cowell runs his business, it really is a case of here today......tomorrow everyone is saying, do you remember so and so. Cowell is destroying the British music business, he'll deny it of course, but he is!!!
Same thing goes for David Sneddon, Alex Parkes and Michelle McManus - all disappeared. Will never forget Pete Waterman barging out when Michelle won, he couldn't beliieve what he was hearing and I have never seen him as a judge on a talent show since myself
Lol, I agree stargirl, I much prefer Echo to Spirit, and I think her management definitely lost the plot during the Echo period, but I still believe she will be back bigger and stronger for the 3rd album.
I also believe that Alex will be here for the long haul as well.
Heres the issue - If she was dedicated to her music as others as are she wouldn't give a monkeys how much it sold.
Elvis didn't write his own material. Madonna doesn't write most of her own material. Frank Sinatra didn't write his own material. Diana Ross doesn't write her own material. Kylie doesn't write her own material. Tom Jones doesn't write most of his own material. Loads of enormously successful acts don't write their own stuff, or play instruments – or sometimes even have that great a voice. They have the X factor though, and great songs, and that's what matters.
I do love the fact that you list Bryan Adams up there as one of the greats along with Queen, Bowie and Elton John though. Lol
Joe, Leon and Steve (and Matt this year) were never going to be popstars - they were just flops waiting to happen. The fact that they won didn't change that. The X Factor can give people a leg up - it can't create something out of nothing. And ultimately it's up the artist to grab the chance they're given and seize it.
Also people often mention those who don't win, the curse-of-Syco not tainting them as it does the winners, but how many of the runners-up are doing well? None of them as far as I can tell. Stacey Solomon is reduced to reality TV shows with other wannabes, oncewas's and neverwillbe's, Diana Vickers has been processed and seems to sing nothing but bubblegum pop songs, not heard anything from the likes of Ruth Lorenzo and Laura White for ages either.
The only act that seems to have triumphed is JLS, but they are so contrived, it's a sad state of affairs watching the mobo's these days. One Direction will probably follow the same recipe and get spat-out the same way but it's highly doubtful they will do anything overly successful.
1D and those like them are slightly different because they are so young and it can't be said they've explored other options but most people just want the opportunity to ply their trade and be able to present to bigger audiences, and I'm pretty certain it can be very frustrating to know you have the talent and still be turned away time and time again or not even given a hearing by record companies because you don't fit their mould.
No but the record company would and the days of sales being a secondary issue to record companies, particularly major ones, are long gone.
That's just a bizarre comment. Her (very successful) album isn't bubblegum pop in the slightest. She's gone a much less mainstream direction than almost any of the other X Factor people, in fact.
Lol, Leona is absolutely passionate about her music, that is why she won't compromise and bring out whatever is current, if the current style does not suit her. She is very genuine. Sales, surely, must play some sort of role, the record labels are here to make a profit. All artists are accountable whether they are from XF or not.
Agree with this. Diana Vickers bubble gum pop
So do they win or even get put through each week if they will probably flop when they enter the realm of the music business? Doesn't it reflect how poor quality control really is on this show.
Leona sold worldwide between 1.5-2 million (don't know the exact figure anymore!). She didn't do good in the US this time around but she still sold that much worldwide. She had terrible label support in the US - virtually no radio play/tour, album dropped after one single etc. That single is gold certified - it reached #30 on sales alone pretty much. Had she had radio play and that would be in the top 20.
She had a sell out 20 date arena tour in the UK (which she made millions off) and sang the theme song to the biggest movie of all time, which is incidentally an American movie. She's had a US commercial and the theme song to the Final Fantasy game, as well as a duet with Jennifer Hudson for Sex and the City 2. She was again asked to be a part of the US 'Just Stand Up' television show to raise money for cancer research etc.
She's sold more here than the majority of UK artists, and more worldwide than the lot of them! The expectations people have of her are waaay too high; people need to see Spirit as an anomaly, not the norm. Nobody expected sales that big. So poor for her own high standards maybe, but not in general or compared to her 'peers'.