Would the ITV companies have started up earlier without regulation?

RichardcoulterRichardcoulter Posts: 30,153
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I had always assumed that the new ITV companies from 1955 onwards didn't start up until the early evening because they were new businesses wanting to slowly build up their experience and expand the business gradually throughout the day.

I've since learned that it was because broadcasting hours were regulated.

My question is, at their formation, would the ITV companies have started earlier in the day if there was no legislation to limit them from doing so?

I don't actually think that they would because of the reasons given in my first paragraph.

Many years later, Channel 4 started and, IIRC, they initially didn't broadcast during the day either.

However, by the time Channel 5 came along, they were 24/7 from the start- maybe by then the expectancy of 24/7 television had overrode the luxury of being able to build up the business and experience??
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  • ftvftv Posts: 31,668
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    Most of the ITV companies struggled financially in the first few years and one, Wales West & North TV, went bankrupt in 1964. Extended programme hours would have added to their woes. They were limited to 50 hours a week although there were exceptions for outside broadcasts and religious programming.
  • Guest82722Guest82722 Posts: 10,019
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    There were no restrictions on Bank holidays.

    I can't remember if it was 1966 or 67 (or maybe both), but for Boxing day Rediffusion broadcast from 7am (including news bulletins- so it wasn't just cheap fillers) to show what all day tv might be like.

    The big game changer was the ability to video tape shows so you could record half a dozen half hour editions of the same show in one day. Studios could then be be used far more productively than in the past.
  • JezRJezR Posts: 1,428
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    There were morning & midday programmes at the start but most were discontinued as unprofitable at the time. ATV persisted a bit longer than most with Lunchbox and there were other regional programmes such as the One O'Clock Gang.
  • ftvftv Posts: 31,668
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    Looking at the BBC TV schedules for 1956 they started every weekday afternoon at 3 p.m. with a programme for women, slightly earlier at weekends with sport. They usually closed down around 11 p.m.
  • leslie123leslie123 Posts: 2,425
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    JezR wrote: »
    There were morning & midday programmes at the start but most were discontinued as unprofitable at the time. ATV persisted a bit longer than most with Lunchbox and there were other regional programmes such as the One O'Clock Gang.

    In the very early days on Associated Rediffusion there was a mini soap called Sixpenny Corner broadcast at 10.45 on weekday mornings. Not sure how long it lasted.
  • leslie123leslie123 Posts: 2,425
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    ftv wrote: »
    Looking at the BBC TV schedules for 1956 they started every weekday afternoon at 3 p.m. with a programme for women, slightly earlier at weekends with sport. They usually closed down around 11 p.m.

    In those days they had an evening closedown period from about 6.00 pm until 7.30pm. to allow mothers to put their children to bed or prepare their husband's tea. A very weak excuse in my opinion but there again understandable as everything was done live with with limited resources. That was why you used to get frequent interlude periods because maintaining continuity of the service was extremely hard work.
  • i4ui4u Posts: 54,804
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    In December 1955 ITA Associated Rediffusion was on air from 10.30am but seems to go off air at 12:30 and back at 5pm.
    10:30 Time
    11:00 Sixpenny Corner
    11:15 Baubles, Bangles & Beads
    11:45 Talk: Homes of To-day
    12:00 Visitor of the day
    12:08 For Under Fives
    12:20 Programme Parade
    12:22 News and Newsreel
    

    Then at 5pm there was 'Flickwiz' and the day ended with 'And so to Bed' at 10:57 followed by the Epilogue at 11pm.
  • i4ui4u Posts: 54,804
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    By 1960 Associated Rediffusion had dropped the morning programmes coming on-air at 5pm, some of the other networks such as Associated Television (Midlands) had lunch time programmes from 12:45-1:22 such as 'Thought for The Day' and 'Lunch Box'.

    Tyne Tees TV had afternoon programmes....
    01:00 News Flash (TV's 1st streaker?)
    01:20 The One O'clock (late :)) North East News, Weather
    01:45 Bob Cummings Show
    02:10 Pimpernel Smith (Film)
    
  • tedjrrtedjrr Posts: 2,934
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    My question is, at their formation, would the ITV companies have started earlier in the day if there was no legislation to limit them from doing so?

    Its an interesting question. There were restrictions on daytime TV that manifested the exception of "live" coverage such as racing and show-jumping. You could argue perhaps that the daytime television expansion that happened in the '80s might have occurred a little earlier in the '70s; even so I can't see that Lady Plowden's IBA would have agreed to replace schools programmes with soaps.

    Even if all the restrictions and school's TV were not in the way, its doubtful that daytime TV would have worked commercially in the '50s and '60s, Britain was socially a much efferent place to what it became in the '70s and '80s.
  • ftvftv Posts: 31,668
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    From the 1963 ITV Handbook these are the types of programmes that were exempt from the 50-hour rule:

    Religious programmes (in either churches or studios)
    Ministerial and party political broadcasts
    Outside broadcasts up to a maximum of 350 hours in any calendar year
    Christmas Eve, Christmas Day,Boxing Day, New Year's Eve, New Year's Day were exempt
    School broadcasts
    Repeats of school broadcasts
    Welsh language broadcasts

    On Sundays:
    No broadcasting between 6.15 and 7.25 p.m. apart from religious programmes or outside broadcasts or in Welsh
    Any programmes between 2 and 4 p.m. to be designed for adults

    It suggests a rather uninteresting schedule
  • Guest82722Guest82722 Posts: 10,019
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    ftv wrote: »

    It suggests a rather uninteresting schedule

    Not really.

    Only real stars got on air, because you didn't have to spread limited talent across 800 channels. all on air 24 hours a day.

    There was seldom 'nothing worth watching' in those days, unlike today.
  • RijowhiRijowhi Posts: 1,054
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    Interesting topic and one that shows there is possibly too much TV these days. The biggest example I can think of is some of the Local TV channels. They should take note of the original ITV companies and reduce their schedule...Breakfast and Prime Time could be the times to look at first. Build businesses one brick at a time.
  • Anthony_UKAnthony_UK Posts: 536
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    Granada always tended to start around 5pm most weekday afternoons;most of the day tho' the transmitters tended to be off-air with snow, and between 4.45 and 4.55 Winter Hill and Emley Moor would kick into life with ITA's Picasso b/w test-card and around 4.55 the usual Granada start-up music/sequence would begin before launching into the first programme at 5pm. During the commercial breaks as it was a dual franchise area, there would be split advertising between the transmitters so Yorkshire got tv adverts for Standard Fireworks Huddersfield and Yorkshire related businesses and the Lancashire region which covered ALL of North West England (and was MASSIVE at the time), got advertising which was related to everything on the North Western side of the country ;)
  • Bandspread199Bandspread199 Posts: 4,889
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    STV had the news and the One O'Clock Gang at lunchtime, then closed down until 5pm.
  • RadiomikeRadiomike Posts: 7,926
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    i4u wrote: »
    By 1960 Associated Rediffusion had dropped the morning programmes coming on-air at 5pm, some of the other networks such as Associated Television (Midlands) had lunch time programmes from 12:45-1:22 such as 'Thought for The Day' and 'Lunch Box'.

    Tyne Tees TV had afternoon programmes....
    01:00 News Flash (TV's 1st streaker?)
    01:20 The One O'clock (late :)) North East News, Weather
    01:45 Bob Cummings Show
    02:10 Pimpernel Smith (Film)
    

    What was the date of those programmes - there must have been a particular reason as the rules on broadcast hours were quite clear so it could not have been a regular occurrence? What was the full schedule that day - was there a "special event" that might account for it?
  • RadiomikeRadiomike Posts: 7,926
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    There were no restrictions on Bank holidays.

    I can't remember if it was 1966 or 67 (or maybe both), but for Boxing day Rediffusion broadcast from 7am (including news bulletins- so it wasn't just cheap fillers) to show what all day tv might be like.

    The big game changer was the ability to video tape shows so you could record half a dozen half hour editions of the same show in one day. Studios could then be be used far more productively than in the past.

    It was 1966 - Mon 26 and Tue 27 Dec (both holidays that year so broadcast hours exempt).

    http://ukchristmastv.weebly.com/itv-1966.html
  • 989989 Posts: 2,130
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    STV had the news and the One O'Clock Gang at lunchtime, then closed down until 5pm.

    Didn't 60's pirate station Radio Scotland 242 also do a version of the One O'Clock Gang on the radio as well with Jack McLaughlan as presenter?
  • RadiomikeRadiomike Posts: 7,926
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    Taken from Bernard Sendall's "Independent Television in Britain" Vol 2:-

    "As long ago as 1958 the ITA in agreement with the companies had asked the Post Master General to authorise an increase in the basic daily allowance from eight hours to eleven. More recently in February 1960 a modest request had been made for an extra half hour a day....However, the PMG had explained that the Government was unwilling to approve any change in advance of the report of the Pilkington Committee."

    The main opponent of extension of broadcasting hours was always the BBC - more hours for them meant more expense, for ITV more advertising revenue. The ITA did not think that the limitation could be justified simply because the BBC "might not be able to increase its hours accordingly" They could not see why radio could broadcast for up to 18 hours a day but television could not.

    In the end Pilkington was against anything more than a "moderate" increase. Attention moved to the proposed third channel (eventually to become BBC 2). However more time was allowed, following Pilkington, for adult education.
  • i4ui4u Posts: 54,804
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    TV Schedules Wed 01 Jul 1959
    [B]BBC (CH. 1)[/B]
    1.25 Watch with Mother.
    1.40 Wimbledon : Lawn Tennis Champioships
    5.00 The Caravan. 
    5.50 Children’s Newsreel. 
    6.00 News Headlines, Sports News, and Weather. 
    6.20 Wimbledon. 
    7.00 Right on the Line, film about theRoyal Artillery. 
    7.25 News Summary and Cricket Scores. 
    7.30 The Common Room: 7 – The Major.
    8.00 International Athletics : Great Britain v East Germany. 
    8:45 On the Bright Side.
    9:30 Mock Auction. 
    10.00 News. 
    10.15 Viewpoint. 
    10.30 Direct from Holland: The Nato Tattoo. 1
    11.00 News Summary and Weather.
    
    [B]I.T.A. ASSOCIATED-REDIFFUSION (CH 9)[/B]
    12.45 Thought for the Day. 
    12.47 Lunch Box.
    1.00 News.
    1.20 Lunch Box. 
    1.40 Wimbledon. 
    5.45 For Children: Annie Oakley.
    6.15 News and Weather.
    6.35 Wimbledon.
    7.50 Close-Up on Peter Sellers. 
    7.30 Concentration. 
    8.00 Crime Sheet
    8.30 This Week.
    9.00 The Variety Show. 
    10.00 News. 
    10.15, The Verdict is Yours. 
    10.45 Motoring Club. 
    11.00 Disc Break, followed by the Weather. 
    11.30 The Epilogue.
    
    [B]ASSOCIATED TELEVISION (CH 8) Midland[/B]
    12.45 Thought for the Day. 
    12.47 Lunch Box
    1.40 Wimbledon. 
    5.15 Junior Criss Cross Quiz. 
    5.45 Cisco Kid. 
    6.15 News. 
    6.30 Midlands News. 
    6.35 Cover Girl. 
    7.00 I Love Lucy. 
    7.30 Concentration. 
    8.00 Crime Sheet. 
    8.30 This Week. 
    9.00 Variety Show. 
    10.00 News. 
    10.15, The Verdict is Yours. 
    10.45 Midland Montage. 
    11.00 Disc Break, followed by the Weather Forecast and the Epilogue.
    
  • i4ui4u Posts: 54,804
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    Friday 02 Jul 1965
    [B]B.B.C. 1 (Ch. 1)[/B]
    9.35 - 11.55 Schools
    1.25 News
    1.30, Wimbledon: The Lawn Tennis Championships.
    5.50 News.
    6.00, Town and Around. Weather.
    6.15 Wimbledon.
    7.30 Compact: Winners and Losers.
    8.00 Comedy Playhouse: Memoirs of a Chaise Longue.
    8.30 The Hippodrome Circus, Great Yarmouth: An excerpt from the 1965 Show.
    9.15 News.
    9.25 International Film Season : Seven Samurai, Part 2 (Japanese film with English sub-titles).
    10.40, Turn of Fate (film drama): Souvenir.
    11.05 News Extra.
    11.15 Weather.
    
    [B]B.B.C 2 (Ch. 33)[/B]
    11.00-11:25 Play School.
    2.30- 4.15 Henley Royal Regatta : The Semi-finals.
    5.30 Henley.
    5.50 Wimbledon : The Lawn Tennis Championships and Henley.
    6.15-6.50 Henley.
    7.27 News.
    7.30 Encore : Under Milk Wood.
    9.00 Match of the Day from Wimbledon.
    9.45 Newsroom followed by Weather.
    10.05 Westminster at Work.
    10.30 Festivals of Europe : Concert from the Bath Festival.
    11.15 Late Night Line-up.
    
    [B]REDIFFUSION (Ch. 9) LONDON[/B]
    1.05 Small Time.
    1.20 Crossroads.
    1.45 Wimbledon.
    5.00 Junior Criss Cross Quiz.
    5.25 Quick Draw McGraw.
    5.5, News. Weekend Weather.
    6.08 Ready, Steady, Go!
    7.00 Sing a Song of Sixpence.
    7.30 Emergency—Ward 10.
    8.00 Rawhide.
    8.55 News.
    9.10 Cinema.
    9.40 The Man in Room 17.
    10.35, News.
    10.37 Design for Living.
    11.07, Dateline Westminster. Weather.
    11.22, Twentieth Century Pilgrims.
    
    [B]ASSOCIATED TELEVISION (ch. 8) Midland[/B]
    1.45 Wimbledon.
    5.00 Junior Criss Cross Quiz.
    5.25 Robin Hood.
    5.55 News.
    6.05 Midlands News.
    6.15 ATV Today.
    6.35 Crossroads.
    7.00 Sing a Song of Sixpence.
    7.30 London .
    8.00 Rawhide.
    8.55 London
    10.35 Police Five.
    10.40 Film: Three Sundays to Live.
    11.01 News.
    11.05 Film (continued). Weather.
    12.00 Epilogue.
    
  • Guest82722Guest82722 Posts: 10,019
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    The above not really representative as it was part of Wimbledon fortnight.

    But I do remember until the end of the 60's ITV as well as BBC covered Wimbledon.

    I also remember if Rediffusion (later Thames) was meant to be covering Racing, and it was called off, someone at the transmitter would get out the John Bull printing set, and stick something like

    Racing from Sandown abandoned. Programmes commence at 4.45

    on top of Test Card D (not instead of- as well as!)
  • tedjrrtedjrr Posts: 2,934
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    .....
    I also remember if Rediffusion (later Thames) was meant to be covering Racing, and it w3as called off, someone at the transmitter would get out the John Bull printing set, and stick something like

    Racing from Sandown abandoned. Programmes commence at 4.45

    on top of Test Card D (not instead of- as well as!)

    Or the BBC with a locked camera at an ob showing the covers over a watery wicket with the caption 'rain stopped play' and test card music.
  • RichardcoulterRichardcoulter Posts: 30,153
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    Radiomike wrote: »
    In the end Pilkington was against anything more than a "moderate" increase. Attention moved to the proposed third channel (eventually to become BBC 2). However more time was allowed, following Pilkington, for adult education.

    Maybe that explains why I remember Sunday mornings on BBC1 being full of programmes about learning a different language, DIY etc in the 70's.
    i4u wrote: »
    Friday 02 Jul 1965
    [B]B.B.C. 1 (Ch. 1)[/B]
    9.35 - 11.55 Schools
    1.25 News
    1.30, Wimbledon: The Lawn Tennis Championships.
    5.50 News.
    6.00, Town and Around. Weather.
    6.15 Wimbledon.
    7.30 Compact: Winners and Losers.
    8.00 Comedy Playhouse: Memoirs of a Chaise Longue.
    8.30 The Hippodrome Circus, Great Yarmouth: An excerpt from the 1965 Show.
    9.15 News.
    9.25 International Film Season : Seven Samurai, Part 2 (Japanese film with English sub-titles).
    10.40, Turn of Fate (film drama): Souvenir.
    11.05 News Extra.
    11.15 Weather.
    
    [B]B.B.C 2 (Ch. 33)[/B]
    11.00-11:25 Play School.
    2.30- 4.15 Henley Royal Regatta : The Semi-finals.
    5.30 Henley.
    5.50 Wimbledon : The Lawn Tennis Championships and Henley.
    6.15-6.50 Henley.
    7.27 News.
    7.30 Encore : Under Milk Wood.
    9.00 Match of the Day from Wimbledon.
    9.45 Newsroom followed by Weather.
    10.05 Westminster at Work.
    10.30 Festivals of Europe : Concert from the Bath Festival.
    11.15 Late Night Line-up.
    
    [B]REDIFFUSION (Ch. 9) LONDON[/B]
    1.05 Small Time.
    1.20 Crossroads.
    1.45 Wimbledon.
    5.00 Junior Criss Cross Quiz.
    5.25 Quick Draw McGraw.
    5.5, News. Weekend Weather.
    6.08 Ready, Steady, Go!
    7.00 Sing a Song of Sixpence.
    7.30 Emergency—Ward 10.
    8.00 Rawhide.
    8.55 News.
    9.10 Cinema.
    9.40 The Man in Room 17.
    10.35, News.
    10.37 Design for Living.
    11.07, Dateline Westminster. Weather.
    11.22, Twentieth Century Pilgrims.
    
    [B]ASSOCIATED TELEVISION (ch. 8) Midland[/B]
    1.45 Wimbledon.
    5.00 Junior Criss Cross Quiz.
    5.25 Robin Hood.
    5.55 News.
    6.05 Midlands News.
    6.15 ATV Today.
    6.35 Crossroads.
    7.00 Sing a Song of Sixpence.
    7.30 London .
    8.00 Rawhide.
    8.55 London
    10.35 Police Five.
    10.40 Film: Three Sundays to Live.
    11.01 News.
    11.05 Film (continued). Weather.
    12.00 Epilogue.
    

    I wonder why ATV didn't just simulcast both franchises apart from the news and local programming?
  • Guest82722Guest82722 Posts: 10,019
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    I wonder why ATV didn't just simulcast both franchises apart from the news and local programming?

    What do you mean?

    In those days each region did its own thing, with only a small handful of programmes (eg Coronation Street, Sunday Night at the London Palladium) being fully networked.

    I remember my aunt in Ipswich thinking I was a child genius because I got half the questions on University Challenge right (but only because I'd seen it in London 3 days earlier).
  • Bandspread199Bandspread199 Posts: 4,889
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    989 wrote: »
    Didn't 60's pirate station Radio Scotland 242 also do a version of the One O'Clock Gang on the radio as well with Jack McLaughlan as presenter?
    There was a radio version, but with LArry Marshall as on STV Jack did the Celeidh show each evening, 6.45 pm to 7.00 pm, playing Scottish records with an insane comic delivery!
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