Top of the Lake - Saturday - 13 July - BBC 2 - 9.10pm

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 312
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    SomeRandom wrote: »
    Yep his secret was that he was there all along, but too cowardly (whether that's fair or not - that was the source of his guilt) to intervene. Her mother warning her off him was explained by her thinking they were half siblings.

    I was so relieved when all he had to confess was that he was there did nothing - I thought he was going to say the other guys had made him rape Robyn too or something. I was also glad he didn't turn out to be a baddie in the end.
  • Dare_AllanDare_Allan Posts: 2,328
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    owllover wrote: »
    Except it makes no sense why they were all so eager to hop in his car and go back to town with him. But I'm taking it too literally because much of it makes no sense.

    It seems fairly clear, he was using his position as a cop to offer kids who were in trouble with the law an alternative to whatever the NZ equivalent of youth offenders is. Likely he decided when they would end their "service" at the cafe so they would happily go along with his "celebration" and get some pizza at his house. The added bonus of using the cafe would be that it indoctrinated (groomed if you will) compliant behaviour.

    I think some viewers commenting here miss what the series was about, it wasn't a traditional "whodunnit" because the outcome was well signposted, it was more a story about Robyn's path to finding out the answers. Its a character study, not a thriller.
  • Dare_AllanDare_Allan Posts: 2,328
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    catsitter wrote: »
    It was Al who said that, so he could have been lying, as he was almost certainly lying when he said that Matt was the father of Tui's baby.

    Well there were two tests - Robyn and Tui's baby. He needed one result to show Matt as the father. More than likely Tui's baby wouldn't show Matt as the father, so where did he get a result showing he was someone's father....

    An interesting question left open by a great series.
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    Andy-B wrote: »
    no, not experts. Unless you want to define 'expert' as experienced as opposed to medically trained.

    My point was that though, as you say, young girls have been having babies without the aid of medically trained experts for millennia, they did not give birth alone, and without help from experiences persons who have undergone childbirth themselves and helped many young girls in childbirth.

    I haven't seen the programme, so I am just assuming from the comments on here that Tui was alone. If I am wrong in that assumption I apologise.

    As I said, I came on the thread to see who was the father of Tui's baby - inconclusive, seemingly, so I'll forget it and go away disappointed. :(
  • Dare_AllanDare_Allan Posts: 2,328
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    Andy-B wrote: »
    Well, Matt did say "You're no son of mine ..." as Johnno took Robin away from Al's boat.

    You really can't take that line as meaningful, its a very common turn of phrase for a son who has disappointed a parent. Certainly in Glasgow and Scotland but I'm sure elsewhere in the world.
  • misskeymisskey Posts: 657
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    ah such a lot to think about, thing I'm left wondering about is if Tui cant remember anything about the abuse why did she run away from Matts but yet had no problem going with Al? I know its a red herring to point towards Matt but maybe the reason was simply she thought he wouldnt let her keep the baby? she only shot him because he was about to harm him, and maybe matts motivation in harming the baby was just practical (albeit ruthless) as he thought she was too young to have one....
  • Dare_AllanDare_Allan Posts: 2,328
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    misskey wrote: »
    ah such a lot to think about, thing I'm left wondering about is if Tui cant remember anything about the abuse why did she run away from Matts but yet had no problem going with Al? I know its a red herring to point towards Matt but maybe the reason was simply she thought he wouldnt let her keep the baby? she only shot him because he was about to harm him, and maybe matts motivation in harming the baby was just practical (albeit ruthless) as he thought she was too young to have one....

    In the second episode (or first maybe) Matt's attitude towards "runts" is made clear when he shoots Bob Platt's dog.
  • misskeymisskey Posts: 657
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    ..the lack of empathy of a hard living and unsentimental man like Matt. Peter Mullen is always seriously scary and believable in those roles.
  • nomad2kingnomad2king Posts: 8,415
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    Matt was pretty much out of it, whether from lack of sleep or drugs or possibly both. He got agitated when the baby cried and didn't know why and couldn't stop it. Mothers get agitated in the same way and can harm or even kill the baby. Up until that point he didn't indicate that he wished harm on Tui or her baby. Remember he didn't want the searchers to even swear, when near her.

    If Tui didn't know who the father of the baby was and how it occurred, she might have assumed, as others had done, that Matt was the father.
  • misskeymisskey Posts: 657
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    Yep, Matt was f***ed up, damaged and violent and an easy target but not a sinister abuser but it was the 'nice but dim and ineffectual' on the surface person with power that was the real villain, the one who slips under the radar. Saddly realistic.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8
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    hetty_rose wrote: »
    I really loved this, I found the slow serious pace of it refreshing.

    For me there is too much flashy, so fast tv/movies these days, and I find them really hard to follow.

    It reminded me a bit of the UK Wallander - which I hated the first time I watched it, but I grew to love the slow quiet pace of it, and now I'm hooked. (I could watch Kenneth Branagh lying on a couch passed out, with that ringtone in the background, for hours!)

    Found it very hard to watch David Wenham as a baddie though, it didn't seem right!

    I don't think Matt was the father of Tui's baby, I think Matt was just completely messed up by his own mother, and perhaps as it was all unravelling he didn't want to see another child born into a messed up life, hence why he took the baby and contemplated killing it.

    I loved Holly Hunter as GJ, clearly she was meant to be messianic in tone, but had no real answers and was very selfish in the end.

    Lets see if something of equal quality replaces this in the viewing schedule, not hopeful though!
    What about the part when Matt's sons and the women say they've seen him in Tui's bed when he was out of it and Tui on top of him? Or did I misunderstand that?
  • Andy-BAndy-B Posts: 6,800
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    ^^ On Tui's bed and with Tui walking on him. I don't know what's to "misunderstand" - perhaps you mean misheard. A shame really as one is normal parental behaviour and consistent in the context of various arcs, the other is sick and entirely inconsistent with the character of Matt.
    My point was that though, as you say, young girls have been having babies without the aid of medically trained experts for millennia, they did not give birth alone, and without help from experiences persons who have undergone childbirth themselves and helped many young girls in childbirth.
    I do take your point. The character of Tui was overplayed throughout, not just for the birth (the whole beautiful child-warrior-survivalist thing). Campion seemed to be having a slight fantasy.
    Dare_Allan wrote: »
    You really can't take that line as meaningful, its a very common turn of phrase for a son who has disappointed a parent
    Sure, it was ambiguous but, in the context of Matt's fathering history a bit more than a throwaway comment.

    Was this the only scene in which Matt and Johnno shared dialogue ....
  • GoobyGooby Posts: 1,576
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    I watched the final episode last night and was surprised at how many loose ends were tied up.

    My take was....
    Al's meeting in the coffee shop - the two men were choosing which kids they wanted at the party - they kinda nodded at the girl they had picked. This means the policeman Pete must have been in on it too as he was there.

    I think Al was smitten with Tui as opposed to the general selling of the teenagers to other men. That is why he risked it with her even though she was Matt's daughter.

    Tui was a bit of a tearaway and had been in trouble for shoplifting and other minor offences - this is why she was on the barrista course - it was mentioned in the first episode.

    I think Matt was just a screwed up guy. He probably did supply the roofies to Al but probably didn't know what they were used for. There would be no reason to suspect it was for use on kids... Certainly not his own kid. I just saw Matt as screwed up and slowly getting more screwed up as his world started to fall apart. First with his daughters disappearance and then with Robyn persisting in investigating his drugs business.

    The commune thing. I though GJ was a bit of a con artist who was after the rich ladies money and in the end just got fed up of all the neediness so just left them to it.

    What a great actor the Al person was. He was sooo creepy and so different to other times I have seen him.

    You did get to see much more of how beautiful the Queenstown area is in the last episode. They didn't grey it out as much as earlier episodes so you start to see just how stunning the place is.
  • owlloverowllover Posts: 7,980
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    Gooby wrote: »
    I watched the final episode last night and was surprised at how many loose ends were tied up.

    My take was....
    Al's meeting in the coffee shop - the two men were choosing which kids they wanted at the party - they kinda nodded at the girl they had picked. This means the policeman Pete must have been in on it too as he was there.

    I think Al was smitten with Tui as opposed to the general selling of the teenagers to other men. That is why he risked it with her even though she was Matt's daughter.

    Tui was a bit of a tearaway and had been in trouble for shoplifting and other minor offences - this is why she was on the barrista course - it was mentioned in the first episode.

    I think Matt was just a screwed up guy. He probably did supply the roofies to Al but probably didn't know what they were used for. There would be no reason to suspect it was for use on kids... Certainly not his own kid. I just saw Matt as screwed up and slowly getting more screwed up as his world started to fall apart. First with his daughters disappearance and then with Robyn persisting in investigating his drugs business.

    The commune thing. I though GJ was a bit of a con artist who was after the rich ladies money and in the end just got fed up of all the neediness so just left them to it.

    What a great actor the Al person was. He was sooo creepy and so different to other times I have seen him.

    You did get to see much more of how beautiful the Queenstown area is in the last episode. They didn't grey it out as much as earlier episodes so you start to see just how stunning the place is.

    I like your analysis, especially about GJ. Look out Iceland. How far can you remove yourself?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,679
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    Gooby wrote: »
    I watched the final episode last night and was surprised at how many loose ends were tied up.

    My take was....
    Al's meeting in the coffee shop - the two men were choosing which kids they wanted at the party - they kinda nodded at the girl they had picked. This means the policeman Pete must have been in on it too as he was there.

    I think Al was smitten with Tui as opposed to the general selling of the teenagers to other men. That is why he risked it with her even though she was Matt's daughter.

    Tui was a bit of a tearaway and had been in trouble for shoplifting and other minor offences - this is why she was on the barrista course - it was mentioned in the first episode.

    I think Matt was just a screwed up guy. He probably did supply the roofies to Al but probably didn't know what they were used for. There would be no reason to suspect it was for use on kids... Certainly not his own kid. I just saw Matt as screwed up and slowly getting more screwed up as his world started to fall apart. First with his daughters disappearance and then with Robyn persisting in investigating his drugs business.

    The commune thing. I though GJ was a bit of a con artist who was after the rich ladies money and in the end just got fed up of all the neediness so just left them to it.

    What a great actor the Al person was. He was sooo creepy and so different to other times I have seen him.

    You did get to see much more of how beautiful the Queenstown area is in the last episode. They didn't grey it out as much as earlier episodes so you start to see just how stunning the place is.

    Not all of the loose ends were tied up and the fact you have to present your "take" on what we saw surely must mean you realise this?

    Had these loose ends been tied up there would be no discussion as to the actual outcome or what actually happened.

    We still don't know for certain who was the father of Tuis baby. The suggestion is that it could have been any of the businessmen, it could have been Al but the only person named was Matt and thats been pretty much rejected as Al was the one who said this.

    What really happened to Robin when she was a child? We never found out, we got some story from her boyfriend which was presented as a lie with a far deeper betrayal suggested, but this was never revealed.

    GJ, i don't buy the con artist thing at all, this was never ever suggested and doesn't hold water at all. Its more likely she is a very self absorbed selfish person and when she decided she had enough of the commune and its inhabitants, she left. If you watch her dialogue through the series, she doesn't give a rats arse about anyone but herself and seems to spend half her time spouting rediculous twaddle which the other women eat up without question.
  • Andy-BAndy-B Posts: 6,800
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    Fwiw, I thought it was pretty well tied up. Unless you're suggesting Matt was also a peadophile when literally everything suggested the contrary.

    The GJ character was a Campion self-parody on one level (of her younger self - see an image of Campion vs. GJ) and - imo - on another a fop to the pretty relentless attack on masculinity: GJ basically created, what became in the end, a 'womens refuge'.

    Don't know what you mean about Robin's childhood.
  • CavegirlCavegirl Posts: 11,261
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    Old.Tallen wrote: »
    What really happened to Robin when she was a child? We never found out, we got some story from her boyfriend which was presented as a lie with a far deeper betrayal suggested, but this was never revealed.

    :confused:

    Robin went into a fair amount of detail what happened to her during that dinner with Al. And then the following ep they even had the flashback, I don't want to know any further detail than that. :eek:
  • saralundsaralund Posts: 3,377
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    Not sure why so many think GJ was a fraud. She never presented herself as a guru; that was how others chose to see her. What she kept saying - and everyone kept ignoring - was 'Listen to the body. The body knows.' She was telling everyone to tune into their own instincts and the awareness of their own being in the world, rather than the chatter of their intellect and thoughts, It wasn't a sophisticated message, and she wasn't pretending it was. It was those around her who wanted it to be something more profound. That's why she was so exasperated by the whole commune, IMO.

    Tui's body was telling her something that didn't make sense, where all the others had no reason not to make sense of what was going on in their lives.

    Tui might well have got impregnanted 'accidentally' by Matt. We heard that she bounced around on top of him when he was asleep, and we also knew that he had to take Viagra, which might well leave him with an active member even when not awake. Alternatively, Al might well have sent off his own DNA labelled as Matt's. The fact that Matt had been conveniently cremated meant that they had no more DNA to retest.
  • misskeymisskey Posts: 657
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    double post, deleted.
  • misskeymisskey Posts: 657
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    Gurus talk like that I think. I read an interview with, I think it was Jane Campion, about her inspiration for GJ and she said it was Krishnamurti, he once said when asked about his calmness by someone in an audience he leant over and whispered to them ' i never mind about things'
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,234
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    I was riveted by this. The characters were so intriguing and it was so interesting to see New Zealand and not even the usual New Zealand such as Auckland, but near Queenstown/South Lakes area. The natural environment and the architecture, (all the bungalows and that triangular house), was so different. It all looked so relaxing, (though a bit open spacey for me).

    I thought Al was so dislikably dominating that the ending was predictable, especially with him being so in with drug baron Matt and how Robyn passed out after the wine at his house. It was in character for him.

    I don't think GJ was fake, I think Bunny thought she was this wonderful guru and she just never contradicted that.

    The accents were very hard for me to understand - particularly I could scarcely make out what Al was saying a lot of the time. I wish I'd known you could get subtitles on I Player.
  • Trudi MonkTrudi Monk Posts: 589
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    Here's what I don't understand. Why did they get a DNA test done on Johnno? Just from that throwaway line from Matt in the boat? Doesn't make sense. Anyone would have taken it to mean he wasn't like the other two sons, had let the family down by not working in the family (drug) business, not living in the compound and the final betrayal of getting Robin off the boat.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,234
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    Trudi Monk wrote: »
    Here's what I don't understand. Why did they get a DNA test done on Johnno? Just from that throwaway line from Matt in the boat? Doesn't make sense. Anyone would have taken it to mean he wasn't like the other two sons, had let the family down by not working in the family (drug) business, not living in the compound and the final betrayal of getting Robin off the boat.

    that was a bit of a loose end.

    Maybe because Robin was always saying Johnno wasn't like Matt? Maybe she meant more to that than that Johnno was a nicer person than Matt.
  • Jo MarchJo March Posts: 9,256
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    Is there anywhere on-line where the last episode of this can be watched?
    .
    Thanks :)
  • DJW13DJW13 Posts: 4,274
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    I can't think how I missed this when it was first shown. It is now being repeated on Friday nights (the first two episodes were last week, but are now on the BBC iPlayer).

    You have probably seen the trailers on BBC for the new season starting in September, which includes Nicole Kidman.

    I have started a thread for season 2.

    https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2229738/top-of-the-lake-season-2#latest
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