insult to muslims

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,299
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    maria01 wrote: »
    bold bit 1. = such a generalisation about a person you know little about, no one person or type of person represents a whole community, am not a pakistani muslim, am half Indian and half Arabian, but have very close Pakistani friends, and they would disagree with you. westernisation is a concept of culture not religion.. hence the original poster noting its a insult to islam, I strongly disagree .


    Bold bit 2 re christmas repost the islamic view on this.. you may take a cultural stance on this but the following stands

    Christmas is an annual Christian religious holiday commemorating the birth of Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. For many Muslims who even do not celebrate the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it becomes an issue of what stand they should take.

    There have been a number of legitimate criticisms of the holiday from Muslims and non-Muslims based on theological and cultural considerations. However, this cannot be used to disregard the holiday as merely an exercise in ancient pagan practices, for instance, or excessive consumerism. Muslims have to remember that for practicing Christians, Christmas really is about Jesus.

    Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was so accommodating of Christians that according to the two earliest Islamic historians, Ibn e Saad and Ibn Hisham, the Prophet even allowed a delegation of 60 Byzantine Christians from Najran in Yemen to worship in his own mosque in Madinah. Lead by their bishop (Usquf), they had come to discuss a number of issues with him. When time of their prayer came, they asked the Prophet's permission to perform this in the mosque. He answered, "conduct your service here in the mosque. It is a place consecrated to God."

    God expects us to stay away from mocking the religious beliefs of others, no matter how much we disagree with them. He says in the Quran: "And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides God, lest they insult God wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do" (Quran, 6:108).


    Bold bit 3 - seriously ... am not sure i understood clearly. so a pakistani muslim family and terrorism is the correct and perfect image.. am not sure you meant that

    Bold bit 4 - its a soap its not meant to .. there bigger issues in the political arena whether in relation to equality, race, color and religion.. a soap isn't the place to fix it.

    In conclusion - The original poster noted it insulted islam and though I dont believe the masoods are a perfect example of every muslim family any more then Dot and lucas are a representation of every christian family, I don't believe they are insultive or a unfair watered down version of a muslim family

    Let me get this straight, i unlike the OP dont believe its an insult to Islam. I dont see an insult where ever i go.

    Hows it a cultural stand? How patronising. The version of Islam I follow is clearly different from that which you follow. The version i follow, and everyone i know follows celebrating Christmas is not Islamic. I dont disrespect it, i just dont celebrate it and i dont intend to. My Christian friends have and should get used to that. I dont expect them to celebrate Eid or sing Nasheeds.

    I dont want to derail this into a theological debate b/w muslims, but use the search option on Sunni Forum, Ummah.com, Ask Imam (Whose really popular with Gujrati Muslims) and the answer will be completely different to what you've stated.

    We clearly hang around different types of Muslims, your views are alien, just like the Masoods are. Polls repeatedly have shown Muslims in the UK are the most socially conservative group present in the UK. I dont mind the Masoods, im not a 'fan', but then im not a fan of 'The Mitchells'. What i object to is the false and its clearly false image posters on here are perpetuating that most Muslims like/or act like this family. It is a very westernised 'acceptable' version of Islam, palatable to alot of English people. Hence the big love in......

    Muslims on DS do not reflect the Muslim population in general, the most popular Muslim forums like Ummah.com, Sunni Forum, ShiaChat do and they are wholly negative about this family. CatsMeow has personally i believe over reacted, the Masoods are nothing big in the grand scheme of things.

    However although she may seem the odd one out here, and its easy for you to drown her out, and i admit she doesnt help herself, she speaks more in tune with the Muslim populace than you do. DS is far removed from the practice of Islam by most Muslims, hence the popularity of the Masoods. Real Muslims are not that popular on DS let alone in the wider country.
  • puppetangelpuppetangel Posts: 2,892
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    I don't understand how you cannot be Western and Muslim? Islam is a religion, the rest is culture and tradition. For example arranged marriages have or female circumcision or honour killings etc have nothing to do with Islam and which Islam actually forbids, yet they are practised by cultures that are also Muslim.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,299
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    Nurse M wrote: »
    Lol Let me elaborate on this. I dress moderately and appropriately but I also know how to behave like a Muslim should. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I've never taken drugs. To sum it up I dress in a western manner but everyday I always do remember that I am Muslim therefore I know how to behave and act as a British Pakistani Female Muslim living in the UK. I don't think me and the other posters are the only ones that are the most western. I know a lot of Muslim females who do dress in a western manner but have always maintained that they should be dress moderately. I need to point out that the only times I don't wear western clothing, basically my Pakistani clothing is when I'm visiting a relative, we have visitors or I'm at home. However sometimes I might wear my Pakistani clothing while I'm out, depending on my mood lol.

    Can I quickly point out that Masood and Zainab don't know that there son is gay lol.

    Lol.....dont worry, i dress exactly like you. To my mother's dismay lol. However i have been thinking about wearing the Hijab recently. For me integration doesnt mean, drinking, partying, having a boyfriend, clubbing, wearing western clothing, singing Xmas carols, its more about speaking english, paying taxes, living a peaceful life, being law abiding lol. If you dont like it tough.

    I know im sounding harsh.....im sorry, but we have to be truthful and realistic, not just crowd pleasers. The Masoods are The Masoods, they represent a type of Muslim, fair enough thats your choice, but most of us are not like that, wont act like that, and just like they're not an insult to Islam or Pakistanis, they're not an accurate reflection on us aswell.

    Khuda Hafiz.....im tired.....and the Masoods are not that important enough to continue this debate on for me:)
  • busy_beebusy_bee Posts: 695
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    catsmeow wrote: »
    i do not dislike the masoods. i dislike how the bbc are portraying them. however i would have little respect for a family like the masoods as muslims. there is integration in communities - and there is also going too far to integrate.


    I have read through most of this thread, and to be honest, this shocked me a lot (bit in bold), and shows why there are so many problems in this country.

    I personally watch EE for fun, not for factual content. However, I do think that the way the family have been presented is good - they are part of the community, friendly, integrated. Yet it is obvious they follow their own religion and have their own customs without it being rammed down viewers throats. The same way in which Dot and her Christian beliefs are not made into some massive story line every day, with the aim to convert all the viewers. This is how we should all learn to live, not an us and them situation, but all working together!

    I think the OP forgets, that Britain, whilst being multicultural and accepting of other faiths, is a CHRISTIAN country, and our values and morals go along with this. Most people do not agree with, or wish to see women being forced to cover up, or being belittled and degraded by the men in their culture. Women of Britain have worked hard over the last hundred years to gain equality and equal placement with men within society, we do not wish to be dragged back to what we once were during the middle ages. We have the vote, we gained acceptance to wearing trousers, and we now as women are accepted in all levels of society. If the Masoods women were forced to cover up, and were constantly at the beck and call of the men, I personally would be highly offended by that.

    The BBC are showing with other members of the Masood family, that this type of behaviour is common in some factions of the muslim faith, (we know this happens, and worse with honor killings etc) yet that the Masoods we see are willing to integrate more into Western Culture, and be an active part of the society they CHOOSE to live in.

    IF they did not want to be part of a Western culture, why live in Britain? If they want to be totally involved in the Muslim culture, why not move back to Pakistan?

    As for the OP, if you despise the way Britain behaves with regard to Islam, and you do not believe that is portrayed correctly, why do you not move to a totally Islamic country? Would you be happy living in such austere and restrictive circumstances? Where women are not allowed out without full covering and can be punished for even spending time with a man without a chaperone?

    EE is a soap, it is entertainment, and the Great British Public do not want to see that type of behaviour on our TV's. Yes it may be the norm in a strict Islamic society, but this is Britain, and we do not do things like that. If they started to depict women as chattals, and forcing them to cover up, I would have some complaints for the BBC.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 874
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    pete137 wrote: »
    Yet again this shows how religion DIVIDES people against each other, instead of uniting them. I dont see them as the Masoods the muslims, I simply see them as the Masoods.

    Everyone is the same to me.....................we are all as one !! :)


    Jesus Christ Pete, the world would be in a damn finer state than it is now if everyone thought like you did mate.
    Common sense is sometimes in short supply on here, but that posting was well worth reading.

    IMO, there is always a BBC agenda at work where ethnics are concerned & I do think they are trying to 'integrate' the Masoods much more than they would be in real life, which is probably not a bad thing. It's unlikley they would mix with the locals as much as they do & certainly not get involved in business with them.
    The headscarves can be such a barrier I am not surprised they dont wear them.
    I am surprised they dont show some more positive angles to the muslim faith though. For example many of the arranged marriages result in people starting married life on a very firm financial footing & they seem less likely to end in divorce these days & their kids are usually much better mannered & brought up than ours (imo)
  • SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
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    I think the OP needs to look up why a lot of gay women and men have sex changes in Iran. A hint, it's not because they feel they were born in the wrong body. The OP also needs to look up why women were in Iran were treated as criminals for choosing to not wear their head scarf appropriately.

    There are many muslim turkish people that live in the UK and Germany for instance where the women do not wear a headscarf, out of personal choice.
  • CandlelightsCandlelights Posts: 1,892
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    Haha thanks!! Yeah, I dont appreciate other people putting Muslim's 'down' in a sense! The media already have a field day doing it and I think its high time that Muslim's started standing up for themselves! I'm forever grateful to the BBC for putting the Masood's on screen because it's made people a lot more AWARE if anything and that is all we can ask!

    So catsmeow - PLEASE drop your 'holier than thou' attitude and get with the real world! (In the nicest possible way :p)

    Ah! What's funny is that i see both your points, but this bit i highlighted isn't doing any good to your argument. You mustn't try the ' my understanding of the deen is better than yours' hence why there are division in the deen. We muslims and non muslims alike need to chillax and live and let live. Like you i have some muslims in my family none wear the hijab but none dismiss it. ' You are innocent of what i and i am innocent of what you' springs to mind.

    Catsmeow: It is only a soap not a documentary, it is prolly an issue some muslim families face on a daily basis. Personally i think those who chose to learn from soaps need to get out more. I have noticed few crazy things like how they show them praying, but then again the actors aren't muslims and should be 'forced' to pray like muslims. Talking about Christmas and Eid, i give the 3rd of my qurbani to my non muslim neighbours, but i don't give christmas greetings nor cards to them, whatever one feels comfortable with.

    I don't find it offensive and i am a 'revert' too, but to each their own, i watch EE when there is a good storyline and mainly cause of the mitchell family, i am quite indifferent to the Masood's.
  • CandlelightsCandlelights Posts: 1,892
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    I don't understand how you cannot be Western and Muslim? Islam is a religion, the rest is culture and tradition. For example arranged marriages have or female circumcision or honour killings etc have nothing to do with Islam and which Islam actually forbids, yet they are practised by cultures that are also Muslim.


    I didn't read the whole thread, you mean people actually said that? :eek:
    I beg to differ, I am both!!! Some aspect of the british culture i embrace very well lol like the food, go for walks, periods dramas, litterature etc... And it goes well with my way of living e.i. Islam. :) Life is a blessing!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,375
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    Massagatae wrote: »
    Let me get this straight, i unlike the OP dont believe its an insult to Islam. I dont see an insult where ever i go.

    Hows it a cultural stand? How patronising. The version of Islam I follow is clearly different from that which you follow. The version i follow, and everyone i know follows celebrating Christmas is not Islamic. I dont disrespect it, i just dont celebrate it and i dont intend to. My Christian friends have and should get used to that. I dont expect them to celebrate Eid or sing Nasheeds

    I dont want to derail this into a theological debate b/w muslims,but use the search option on Sunni Forum, Ummah.com, Ask Imam (Whose really popular with Gujrati Muslims) and the answer will be completely different to what you've stated.

    We clearly hang around different types of Muslims, your views are alien, just like the Masoods are. Polls repeatedly have shown Muslims in the UK are the most socially conservative group present in the UK. I dont mind the Masoods, im not a 'fan', but then im not a fan of 'The Mitchells'. What i object to is the false and its clearly false image posters on here are perpetuating that most Muslims like/or act like this family. It is a very westernised 'acceptable' version of Islam, palatable to alot of English people. Hence the big love in......

    Muslims on DS do not reflect the Muslim population in general, the most popular Muslim forums like Ummah.com, Sunni Forum, ShiaChat do and they are wholly negative about this family. CatsMeow has personally i believe over reacted, the Masoods are nothing big in the grand scheme of things.

    However although she may seem the odd one out here, and its easy for you to drown her out, and i admit she doesnt help herself, she speaks more in tune with the Muslim populace than you do. DS is far removed from the practice of Islam by most Muslims, hence the popularity of the Masoods. Real Muslims are not that popular on DS let alone in the wider country.

    I respect your view point but please come on Real Muslims and I am in no means a expert and pious to the end degree, but culture does play a big part. I am a strong believer in you can be westernised as well as muslim. Culture is a subset and will always differentiate the masses.

    Just before I go futher I pray 5 times salat, Fast, dont drink, only eat halal food, been to pilgrimage, give money in the name of charity. Some in my family are Imans and some where full parda, some are board members of large institutions and I wear a head scarf during ramadan. I do not believe in sex before marriage. I am no more or less a real muslim then you are. I have stopped board meetings to do my prayers or break my fast.


    I just don't share your views on conservatism and that this is what Islam is about and I just don't see westernisation or in a more PC stance Cohesion as selling out your religion. Westernisation does not equal partying/drinking/premisquious sex, It means freedom of speach, art, education, social tolerance

    Its about sharing and educating and acceptance coming from people learning about your faith

    The masoods are alien to you, that's fine but what I can not agree with is that they are not a representation of a asian muslim family. A caricature as Dot is but not a dis representation by any part of the imagination.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,375
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    The Squire wrote: »
    Jesus Christ Pete, the world would be in a damn finer state than it is now if everyone thought like you did mate.
    Common sense is sometimes in short supply on here, but that posting was well worth reading.

    IMO, there is always a BBC agenda at work where ethnics are concerned & I do think they are trying to 'integrate' the Masoods much more than they would be in real life, which is probably not a bad thing. It's unlikley they would mix with the locals as much as they do & certainly not get involved in business with them.
    The headscarves can be such a barrier I am not surprised they dont wear them.
    I am surprised they dont show some more positive angles to the muslim faith though. For example many of the arranged marriages result in people starting married life on a very firm financial footing & they seem less likely to end in divorce these days & their kids are usually much better mannered & brought up than ours (imo)

    why do you believe the bit in bold 1, am curious

    bit in bold 2 I totally agree that's a great idea

    I also believe, if people didn't find things in Religion to divide them they would find something else. Don't believe you can blame religion, its human instinct, land, money, color.
    :)
  • IphigeniaIphigenia Posts: 8,109
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    Although I question OP's motivation, there are some interesting responses. I agree with the post that, actually, EE could be seen to insult all of us. When I think about it, I mind a lot that many Muslims think all white people are Christians, and that therefore Christians sleep around, kill each other, steal, cheat, embezzle, mug and treat their faith with contempt. I know 'all' Muslims don't think this about 'all' white people - but the Indian Muslim community I lived in for 5 years in the north of England certainly did.

    I cringe when Dot quotes chapter and verse. I nearly made a formal complaint when Lucas killed whatisname (sorry, headcold has affected brain) while reciting the Lord's Prayer - a prayer that's not just part of Christian rote but teaching given by Jesus himself.

    It's not worth getting offended over - and yet interesting too if it gives rise to debate like this.

    On the question of an over-westernized Muslim family - well maybe, a bit but I can see why: the only view we are given of Muslims is when we get news items about people with explosive devices sewn into their underwear, or women who wear burqas, no doubt to feel its protection but without regard for the negative impact it has on a culture where a hidden face is a sign of evil intent (yes, I know the host country needs to learn but the non-host members need to learn the host's cultural values too, it's the only way both 'sides' will learn). So I can see the positive intention behind showing an 'acceptable' Muslim family. It may be a swing too far for some but for very many people it will have been an eye-opener to see 'those Muslims' having the same issues as 'us' - money worries, kids' issues, annoying neighbours. That's setting aside the Chryed issue, which is just soupily annoying, regardless of race or religion. imho.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 262
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    Iphigenia wrote: »
    I nearly made a formal complaint when Lucas killed whatisname (sorry, headcold has affected brain) while reciting the Lord's Prayer

    Why, the bible (and many other religious books) are full of wrath for those who sin. Owen tried to kill his daughter. I believe the bible teaches us an eye for and eye.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,375
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    J/M wrote: »
    Why, the bible (and many other religious books) are full of wrath for those who sin. Owen tried to kill his daughter. I believe the bible teaches us an eye for and eye.

    But the bible also teaches forgiveness above an eye for an eye. Owen had paid for his sins, I can see Lucas warp sense of Christianity being hard for those practising religion to take.

    But people understand EastEnders and not condoning Lucas's action there are portraying him as some one with a warped sense of right and wrong.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,021
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    Perhaps showing the family singing was meant to illustrate how Muslims work hard to be part of their community, by involving themselves with activities such as carol singing?

    I think the BBC has done a great job with the Masoods. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it is a soap opera and not Panorama. In the same way that Dot doesn't represent every Christian, the Masoods can't represent every Muslim, but they are a brilliant addition to the square and are helping a lot of people who don't know anything about Islam understand at least a little of what it means.

    I think that if EE were to throw lots of 'issues' at the family all at once, they would come across as tokenistic, rather than actual characters. A non-Muslim audience is much more likely to warm to Muslim characters if they are shown as human, capable of making mistakes and struggling to make the best of their lives like everyone else.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 262
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    maria01 wrote: »
    But the bible also teaches forgiveness above an eye for an eye.

    So an eye for an eye means nothing. If forgiveness comes above everything then no one would ever get punished for their crimes, they'd just be instantly forgiven.

    The bible is full of violence. I read the bible in a hotel room once when bored and it said if you look at another man's wife you should cut your own eye out.

    Nice.
  • bornfreebornfree Posts: 16,359
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    catsmeow wrote: »
    no one is getting what i am saying

    No they are not. My muslim friends always say that converts are over zealous. One friend doesn't even trust converts. She thinks that converts give real muslims a bad name. So where does this place you?:D By the way my muslim friends give xmas cards, sing carols, fast and celebrate eid and live and let live. I love the food they cook. I cook vegetarian food for them and not meat as I cannot bear to go to halal butchers and they accept that.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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    I must admit, I did kind of think "why are they singing hyms" but didnt really think anymore of it after that.

    I guess when you are living in this country it is pretty hard to escape christmas..and christmas is hardley even religious anymore.
  • MARTYM8MARTYM8 Posts: 44,710
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    J/M wrote: »
    Why, the bible (and many other religious books) are full of wrath for those who sin.


    Well if you subscribe literally to the Bible - well the Old Testament - then

    everyone who has sex before marriage (i.e. 98% of the UK population is going to hell)

    anyone who eats prawn cocktail is going to hell

    dads are allowed to sell their daughters into slavery

    anyone who plays football on a Sunday should be put to death

    and anyone who wears a polyester/cotton mix shirt from Primark is also going to hell.

    Its amazing how many hypocrites ignore those parts of the Bible they fail to abide by but use the Bible to persecute certain groups.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 262
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    MARTYM8 wrote: »
    Well if you subscribe literally to the Bible - well the Old Testament - then

    everyone who has sex before marriage (i.e. 98% of the UK population is going to hell)

    anyone who eats prawn cocktail is going to hell

    dads are allowed to sell their daughters into slavery

    anyone who plays football on a Sunday should be put to death

    and anyone who wears a polyester/cotton mix shirt from Primark is also going to hell.

    Its amazing how many hypocrites ignore those parts of the Bible they fail to abide by but use the Bible to persecute certain groups.

    Precisely. Unless you're gonna follow your religion to the book you might as well not follow it at all.
  • puppetangelpuppetangel Posts: 2,892
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    MARTYM8 wrote: »
    Well if you subscribe literally to the Bible - well the Old Testament - then.....


    ....and anyone who wears a polyester/cotton mix shirt from Primark is also going to hell.



    What is the story behind this- it made me laugh.
  • noodkleopatranoodkleopatra Posts: 12,742
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    catsmeow wrote: »
    are the masoods bbcs idea of a positive image of muslims. for example the gay storyline, zainab and shabnam not wearing headscarves, and most recently the masoods singing carols in the square christmas night! that is outrageous and the actors involved should have refused to sing hymns.
    i did not notice anyone else in the square fasting with the masoods during ramadan and i dont recall anyone wishing eid mubark to them. this is a mockery and just bbc islam, not the real islam.

    B*llocks. My flatmate is a Muslim, and was so very excited to celebrate Christmas this year - she never had before. She sungs hymns, gave and received presents etc.

    Depends how extreme you are, I think its great the Masoods did the hymns.

    By saying that they should refuse to sing hymns, you're contridciting what you said about people saying they should wish them Eid Mubark. My flatmate (she) doesn't wear a headscalf either. Not every Muslim is as stuck and drawn as you think.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,189
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    It's a soap, i.e. not real. if you don't like it then don't watch it!!
  • bornfreebornfree Posts: 16,359
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    It's a soap, i.e. not real. if you don't like it then don't watch it!!

    Exactly:)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 192
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    catsmeow wrote: »
    are the masoods bbcs idea of a positive image of muslims. for example the gay storyline, zainab and shabnam not wearing headscarves, and most recently the masoods singing carols in the square christmas night! that is outrageous and the actors involved should have refused to sing hymns.
    i did not notice anyone else in the square fasting with the masoods during ramadan and i dont recall anyone wishing eid mubark to them. this is a mockery and just bbc islam, not the real islam.


    How ridiculous.

    I have a friend who is Muslim, she does not wear a headscarf.

    She was the first person to call me and wish me a happy chritmas, she was also the first person to send me a christmas card.

    Her family have a tree in the front room and have a special meal and presents on the big day.

    I think sometimes people like to intergrate and share in the joy that christmas brings.

    I find your post rather offensive actually.
  • IphigeniaIphigenia Posts: 8,109
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    J/M wrote: »
    Why, the bible (and many other religious books) are full of wrath for those who sin. Owen tried to kill his daughter. I believe the bible teaches us an eye for and eye.

    The Old Testament developed the 'eye for an eye' justice system to ensure proportionality, not vengeance. So if someone took your eye, you could take his - but not his ears and feet too. Or to take a recent news item, you could defend yourself against someone attacking you but not beat him so hard with a cricket bat while he was unconscious that you broke it.

    Let me know of the part of the Bible where Jesus says it's ok to murder people.
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