It's to do with a perception of a lack of prospects and a lack of suitable role models. How many black male role models do we see in the media who are there for their intelligence? For how educated they are? For their achievements in science, literature, business...? The message young black men are getting is that the only way they will ever be something and have any sort of respect is if they lead the 'gangster' lifestyle and therefore schooling is useless to them. Poverty also disconnects people from the rest of society and breeds attitudes of 'they don't care about us so why should we care about them?'. I saw a video yesterday that was talking about poverty in the US which showed that the CEOs of companies earn 386 times more than the average worker in their firm. That sort of vast inequality is ridiculous especially since getting into such positions requires so much 'knowing the right people'.
Yes, black people are more likely to be involved in crime but they're also more likely to be poor. Poverty and crime have pretty much always gone hand in hand. Black people on average earn less (significantly so) and have higher unemployment. Now obviously we can't say it's because black people are any less intelligent or hard working than white people since that would be a load of racist nonsense, so why has this happened? It seems like more than anything these communities have got caught in a poverty cycle and there's little to nothing lifting them out of it.
I would be very interested to know where you got this load of codswallop from! Practically every word of this paragraph is sheer crap. It's so ridiculously ignorant I'm almost doubling up in laughter and mirth. Black people are no more likely to be involved in crime than any other group - that's just a racist perception which has no basis in fact, and I think if you peruse the Home Office Crime Statistics you will find this will substantiate this. Also, there are a high % of black people who are prospering in careers and have high paying professional jobs and are not in this so-called poverty cycle that some keep harping on about.
I would be very interested to know where you got this load of codswallop from! Practically every word of this paragraph is sheer crap. It's so ridiculously ignorant I'm almost doubling up in laughter and mirth. Black people are no more likely to be involved in crime than any other group - that's just a racist perception which has no basis in fact, and I think if you peruse the Home Office Crime Statistics you will find this will substantiate this. Also, there are a high % of black people who are prospering in careers and have high paying professional jobs and are not in this so-called poverty cycle that some keep harping on about.
I did a check to see. The figures from the government say that out of 308,124 sentencings in 2012 in England, the breakdown is...
White: 73%
Black: 8%
Asian: 5%
Mixed: 2%
Chinese or Other: 1%
Unknown: 12%
The black population of England is estimated to be around 3.5%? That could be where the person gets that black people are more likely to be involved in crime? Though I think the person was more concerned that poverty is a better indicator than colour.
I would be very interested to know where you got this load of codswallop from! Practically every word of this paragraph is sheer crap. It's so ridiculously ignorant I'm almost doubling up in laughter and mirth. Black people are no more likely to be involved in crime than any other group - that's just a racist perception which has no basis in fact, and I think if you peruse the Home Office Crime Statistics you will find this will substantiate this. Also, there are a high % of black people who are prospering in careers and have high paying professional jobs and are not in this so-called poverty cycle that some keep harping on about.
Really? I thought there was a low proportion of black people in high-paying professional jobs, due to discrimination by racist white employers. Or something.
Police have bent over backwards after that and it was 20 years ago.
People need to get over it and look inwards to their "communities". If you tolerate gun, knife crime and gang activity within your ethnic group and it becomes the predominant source of criminality in an area then I expect the police to target suspects.
I do not expect the police to have to work out quotas to randomly "deal" with people of another ethnic background just to appease those who tolerate criminality within their "community".
It seems some people want it both ways and they've had that for long enough.
It does not matter. It was a very significant event that uncovered racism and corruption within the Metropolitan Police. When people discuss World War II the injustice of the Holocaust, historians, news stations and schools don't just say 'oh here we go, why are we talking about something the happened 75 years ago?'
Likewise, the same with the Hillsborough disaster. It was the families and the communities that pushed hard for justice. The same effort and determination to seek the truth by Stephen Lawrence' parents.
There are many incidents where members of communities have felt victimized on an institutional basis. Yes, the Police have worked hard to change perception and attitudes towards them and that hard work should continue. But the statement that 'black people people have a chip on their shoulder' is so sweeping and flippant that you are generalizing an entire race's attitude towards the Police.
It does not matter. It was a very significant event that uncovered racism and corruption within the Metropolitan Police. When people discuss World War II the injustice of the Holocaust, historians, news stations and schools don't just say 'oh here we go, why are we talking about something the happened 75 years ago?'
Likewise, the same with the Hillsborough disaster. It was the families and the communities that pushed hard for justice. The same effort and determination to seek the truth by Stephen Lawrence' parents.
There are many incidents where members of communities have felt victimized on an institutional basis. Yes, the Police have worked hard to change perception and attitudes towards them and that hard work should continue. But the statement that 'black people people have a chip on their shoulder' is so sweeping and flippant that you are generalizing an entire race's attitude towards the Police.
It is as sweeping as stating that the police is institutionally racist.
The black population of England is estimated to be around 3.5%? That could be where the person gets that black people are more likely to be involved in crime? Though I think the person was more concerned that poverty is a better indicator than colour.
Well, he/she have got it all wrong and is clearly misguided. Yes, some BME minorities live in poor areas, but that does not mean that the majority living in those areas commit crimes.
Every racial group has a minority of criminal elements and it is wrong to imply that one race is worse in terms of criminality than another as there is no such evidence to substantiate this.
Well, quite. This idea that black people are over-represented in the prison population because there are thousands of white criminals 'getting away with it' is pure speculation and has no evidence to support it.
The simple fact is that the police 'fish where the fish are'. If there is a clear correlation between being young, black and male and criminality (and there obviously is) of course the cops are going to be disproportionately interested in young, black men. Should the cops start stopping lots of old, white women to even up the statistics?
These stat-happy posters never trouble themselves with the causes of their conclusions do they ?
Are they really suggesting that black people are genetically more pre-disposed towards criminality because black people are disproportionately represented in prison figures???
i thought not, so how about sensible conclusions about a pre-disposition to crime MAYBE being about a combination of class,education,economic well being and experience and then maybe going on to discuss what happens to SOME black kids in schools and how that impacts on the rest of their lives for SOME of them……..if we start there and keep things on a basis that avoids generalisations and comments that avoid straying into racist nonsense then maybe we might get somewhere.
I would be very interested to know where you got this load of codswallop from! Practically every word of this paragraph is sheer crap. It's so ridiculously ignorant I'm almost doubling up in laughter and mirth. Black people are no more likely to be involved in crime than any other group - that's just a racist perception which has no basis in fact, and I think if you peruse the Home Office Crime Statistics you will find this will substantiate this. Also, there are a high % of black people who are prospering in careers and have high paying professional jobs and are not in this so-called poverty cycle that some keep harping on about.
Black people are more likely to be mired in crime, either suffering from crime or committing crime.
Even the average leftwinger would have to accept that. If poverty causes crime, and blacks have a greater burden of poverty within their community, then...well would you not expect the crime rates within the community to be higher?
The Telepgrah done a freedom of information request on the metropolitan police for crime figures, and broke the numbers down according to race. The black population of London was found to be about 12 percent...but
"among those proceeded against for street crimes, 54 per cent were black; for robbery, 59 per cent; and for gun crimes, 67 per cent. Street crimes include muggings, assault with intent to rob and snatching property.
They made up 29 per cent of the male victims of gun crime and 24 per cent of the male victims of knife crime."
But I guess the most likely explanation is that the police are racist, school is racist, society's racist, you're racist, I'm definitely racist, and the black community are just victims of it all.
Really? I thought there was a low proportion of black people in high-paying professional jobs, due to discrimination by racist white employers. Or something.
Yes, no doubt discrimination still exists, but there have been vast improvements in employment prospects for minority groups in some areas. Also, a report on immigrants and their offspring, found that Africans, particularly Nigerians along with Indians were more likely to be in high-paying professional jobs.
Where I used to work, in Council organisations, quite a number of black employees were in high positions, e.g managerial, senior positions, etc.
[QUOTE=Phaz0r;70779311]Black people are more likely to be mired in crime, either suffering from crime or committing crime.
Even the average leftwinger would have to accept that. If poverty causes crime, and blacks have a greater burden of poverty within their community, then...well would you not expect the crime rates within the community to be higher?
The Telepgrah done a freedom of information request on the metropolitan police for crime figures, and broke the numbers down according to race. The black population of London was found to be about 12 percent...but
But I guess the most likely explanation is that the police are racist, school is racist, society's racist, you're racist, I'm definitely racist, and the black community are just victims of it all.[/QUOTE]
The Home Office Statistics on Race and Crime does not tally with this theory. Black people are no more likely to commit crimes and the majority of people who live in poorer areas do not commit crimes. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to trust the Met.'s 'crime figures'. Wasn't there something in the news recently about the Met. Police "massaging crime figures"? The Met. so-called 'crime figures' have been questionable long before this.
Unless you are implying that all blacks are criminals I fail to see what that observation has to do with a thread about whether or not black people in general have a chip on their shoulder about the police.
How have I implied this? Why have you even suggested it ? Most black people are not criminals.
These stat-happy posters never trouble themselves with the causes of their conclusions do they ?
Are they really suggesting that black people are genetically more pre-disposed towards criminality because black people are disproportionately represented in prison figures???
i thought not, so how about sensible conclusions about a pre-disposition to crime MAYBE being about a combination of class,education,economic well being and experience and then maybe going on to discuss what happens to SOME black kids in schools and how that impacts on the rest of their lives for SOME of them……..if we start there and keep things on a basis that avoids generalisations and comments that avoid straying into racist nonsense then maybe we might get somewhere.
Oh dear. Ever heard of the saying 'correlation is not causation'?
The obvious point is that being young, black and male is a clear visual indicator if you are in the business of law enforcement and know that young, black men are more likely to be criminals. The cops don't concern themselves with the underlying causes. Why should they? They're cops, not social scientists.
For what it's worth, I suspect that there are cultural factors at work. It's well known that Afro-Caribbean boys are notably low achievers in education. If it was purely down to poverty, surely Afro-Caribbean girls would be similarly low achievers.
The Home Office Statistics on Race and Crime does not tally with this theory. Black people are no more likely to commit crimes and the majority of people who live in poorer areas do not commit crimes. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to trust the Met.'s 'crime figures'. Wasn't there something in the news recently about the Met. Police "massaging crime figures"? The Met. so-called 'crime figures' have been questionable long before this.
The inconvenient truth is that you are completely wrong. See #60.
Oh dear. Ever heard of the saying 'correlation is not causation'?
The obvious point is that being young, black and male is a clear visual indicator if you are in the business of law enforcement and know that young, black men are more likely to be criminals. The cops don't concern themselves with the underlying causes. Why should they? They're cops, not social scientists.
For what it's worth, I suspect that there are cultural factors at work. It's well known that Afro-Caribbean boys are notably low achievers in education. If it was purely down to poverty, surely Afro-Caribbean girls would be similarly low achievers.
Patronising use of 'oh dear' also doesn't move the discussion forward .I am not expecting 'cops' to be unduly interested in causes of criminality! I was making the point that people on DS who are happy to quote statistics are unwilling or unable to probe into why they think the statistics are as they present them.
Equally nobody is saying that anything is 'purely down to poverty' because nothing in this life is 'purely down' to anything.
The inconvenient truth is that you are completely wrong. See #60.
Really? It's not me who produces these stats dear. I've perused all the Home Office Statistics on Crime and Race and Crime which are more reliable than made-up bs that someone may copy and paste from a questionable source, and no where does it indicate black people commit more crimes than white people. This is NOT fact, it is a racist perception and to suggest otherwise is inflammatory.
It seems people like you just want adhere to these myths, personal opinions and suppositions because it conforms to your pre-conceived prejudices about black people.
Really? It's not me who produces these stats dear. I've perused all the Home Office Statistics on Crime and Race and Crime which are more reliable than made-up bs that someone may copy and paste from a questionable source, and no where does it indicate black people commit more crimes than white people. This is NOT fact, it is a racist perception and to suggest otherwise is inflammatory.
It seems people like you just want adhere to these myths, personal opinions and suppositions because it conforms to your pre-conceived prejudices about black people.
Well, I have to say that's the first time I've heard the Ministry of Justice called a questionable source.
Perhaps you'd like to link to this impeccable source that demonstrates the reverse of the Ministry of Justice's own figures?
I suspect you would get a clearer picture to the proportion of black people in prison if you combined it with social background.
If 90% of people in prison come from an economically deprived back ground, and 90% of black people come from an economically deprived background, then it stands to reason that the majority of people in prison will be black.
If you broke down the crime stats town by town then you would get a different picture altogether.
What about the majority white population? Many of them aren't too flush for cash.
The Home Office Statistics on Race and Crime does not tally with this theory. Black people are no more likely to commit crimes and the majority of people who live in poorer areas do not commit crimes.
Well then I would also be interested in seeing the Home Office stats, especially if they're so totally at variance with the Met figures. Haven't read through this whole thread, so apologies if there's already a link buried somewhere in one of the posts.
Also, I wouldn't be so quick to trust the Met.'s 'crime figures'. Wasn't there something in the news recently about the Met. Police "massaging crime figures"? The Met. so-called 'crime figures' have been questionable long before this.
Yes, there was. But I'm not sure what the police would seek to gain by spinning the data collection to overrepresent black people so heavily. Besides, that kind of overrepresentation could not arise purely from "massaging" or from a few sly statistical tweaks. The deception woild have to be quite a bit more drastic and systematic.
No, its your opinion! You have no information to back that up at all!
I accept that some prejudices can develop AFTER people join but that is almost always as a result of crime.
There are areas, particularly in London, where the majority of crime (mainly street crime) is committed by black people, it is then no wonder some police officers become suspicious of the black community. This in turn develops trust issues on both sides, of course. However, the problems arise when such police officers transfer to another area where the crime statistics aren't as skewed, but they continue to hold these suspicions of black people as a result of their experiences!
And yet they wouldn't do that for areas where white people commit the most crime proving that the prejudice existed before they got into the force, not after. Confirmation bias. If you're looking for something hard enough eventually you will find it.
I was a police officer in a provincial area where there weren't such areas and as a result I have no prejudice toward black people at all, however, in the specific area I served in, a lot of crime was committed by the Gypsy or Travelling community and I did, while serving there, develop a suspicion of them.
Quoted for proof! So it's OK to develop prejudice for an entire community because of the actions of a minority? Thanks for reassuring me that my mistrust of the police is justified.
It's not only the police that are institutionally racist, but the justice system are also. Whites make up the majority in the UK, so it stands to reason that the majority of crimes across England and Wales are committed by whites. The fact is, blacks are more likely to receive custodial or longer sentences as opposed to receiving community service/orders than whites. There have been reports that have found this to be evident.
Quoted for proof! So it's OK to develop prejudice for an entire community because of the actions of a minority? Thanks for reassuring me that my mistrust of the police is justified.
Haha, oh honestly give it a rest. I'm a man, and as a teenager me and my friends got stopped far more often than the girls we knew. I imagine this indicates the police's greater suspicion of us which itself might have something to do with young males committing more crimes.
If you're part of a visibly identifiable group that commits more crimes you can't exactly complain that the police end up noticing!
Comments
Okay, Mr know it all, you are always right and you know everything.:)
Yes you are right. Some people think that they are perfect.
I would be very interested to know where you got this load of codswallop from! Practically every word of this paragraph is sheer crap. It's so ridiculously ignorant I'm almost doubling up in laughter and mirth. Black people are no more likely to be involved in crime than any other group - that's just a racist perception which has no basis in fact, and I think if you peruse the Home Office Crime Statistics you will find this will substantiate this. Also, there are a high % of black people who are prospering in careers and have high paying professional jobs and are not in this so-called poverty cycle that some keep harping on about.
I did a check to see. The figures from the government say that out of 308,124 sentencings in 2012 in England, the breakdown is...
White: 73%
Black: 8%
Asian: 5%
Mixed: 2%
Chinese or Other: 1%
Unknown: 12%
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/269399/Race-and-cjs-2012.pdf
The black population of England is estimated to be around 3.5%? That could be where the person gets that black people are more likely to be involved in crime? Though I think the person was more concerned that poverty is a better indicator than colour.
Really? I thought there was a low proportion of black people in high-paying professional jobs, due to discrimination by racist white employers. Or something.
It does not matter. It was a very significant event that uncovered racism and corruption within the Metropolitan Police. When people discuss World War II the injustice of the Holocaust, historians, news stations and schools don't just say 'oh here we go, why are we talking about something the happened 75 years ago?'
Likewise, the same with the Hillsborough disaster. It was the families and the communities that pushed hard for justice. The same effort and determination to seek the truth by Stephen Lawrence' parents.
There are many incidents where members of communities have felt victimized on an institutional basis. Yes, the Police have worked hard to change perception and attitudes towards them and that hard work should continue. But the statement that 'black people people have a chip on their shoulder' is so sweeping and flippant that you are generalizing an entire race's attitude towards the Police.
It is as sweeping as stating that the police is institutionally racist.
Well, he/she have got it all wrong and is clearly misguided. Yes, some BME minorities live in poor areas, but that does not mean that the majority living in those areas commit crimes.
Every racial group has a minority of criminal elements and it is wrong to imply that one race is worse in terms of criminality than another as there is no such evidence to substantiate this.
These stat-happy posters never trouble themselves with the causes of their conclusions do they ?
Are they really suggesting that black people are genetically more pre-disposed towards criminality because black people are disproportionately represented in prison figures???
i thought not, so how about sensible conclusions about a pre-disposition to crime MAYBE being about a combination of class,education,economic well being and experience and then maybe going on to discuss what happens to SOME black kids in schools and how that impacts on the rest of their lives for SOME of them……..if we start there and keep things on a basis that avoids generalisations and comments that avoid straying into racist nonsense then maybe we might get somewhere.
Black people are more likely to be mired in crime, either suffering from crime or committing crime.
Even the average leftwinger would have to accept that. If poverty causes crime, and blacks have a greater burden of poverty within their community, then...well would you not expect the crime rates within the community to be higher?
The Telepgrah done a freedom of information request on the metropolitan police for crime figures, and broke the numbers down according to race. The black population of London was found to be about 12 percent...but
But I guess the most likely explanation is that the police are racist, school is racist, society's racist, you're racist, I'm definitely racist, and the black community are just victims of it all.
Yes, no doubt discrimination still exists, but there have been vast improvements in employment prospects for minority groups in some areas. Also, a report on immigrants and their offspring, found that Africans, particularly Nigerians along with Indians were more likely to be in high-paying professional jobs.
Where I used to work, in Council organisations, quite a number of black employees were in high positions, e.g managerial, senior positions, etc.
Even the average leftwinger would have to accept that. If poverty causes crime, and blacks have a greater burden of poverty within their community, then...well would you not expect the crime rates within the community to be higher?
The Telepgrah done a freedom of information request on the metropolitan police for crime figures, and broke the numbers down according to race. The black population of London was found to be about 12 percent...but
But I guess the most likely explanation is that the police are racist, school is racist, society's racist, you're racist, I'm definitely racist, and the black community are just victims of it all.[/QUOTE]
The Home Office Statistics on Race and Crime does not tally with this theory. Black people are no more likely to commit crimes and the majority of people who live in poorer areas do not commit crimes. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to trust the Met.'s 'crime figures'. Wasn't there something in the news recently about the Met. Police "massaging crime figures"? The Met. so-called 'crime figures' have been questionable long before this.
How have I implied this? Why have you even suggested it ? Most black people are not criminals.
Oh dear. Ever heard of the saying 'correlation is not causation'?
The obvious point is that being young, black and male is a clear visual indicator if you are in the business of law enforcement and know that young, black men are more likely to be criminals. The cops don't concern themselves with the underlying causes. Why should they? They're cops, not social scientists.
For what it's worth, I suspect that there are cultural factors at work. It's well known that Afro-Caribbean boys are notably low achievers in education. If it was purely down to poverty, surely Afro-Caribbean girls would be similarly low achievers.
The inconvenient truth is that you are completely wrong. See #60.
Patronising use of 'oh dear' also doesn't move the discussion forward
Equally nobody is saying that anything is 'purely down to poverty' because nothing in this life is 'purely down' to anything.
Really? It's not me who produces these stats dear. I've perused all the Home Office Statistics on Crime and Race and Crime which are more reliable than made-up bs that someone may copy and paste from a questionable source, and no where does it indicate black people commit more crimes than white people. This is NOT fact, it is a racist perception and to suggest otherwise is inflammatory.
It seems people like you just want adhere to these myths, personal opinions and suppositions because it conforms to your pre-conceived prejudices about black people.
Obviously those that look like scally types, hanging around.
Well, I have to say that's the first time I've heard the Ministry of Justice called a questionable source.
Perhaps you'd like to link to this impeccable source that demonstrates the reverse of the Ministry of Justice's own figures?
Dear.
What about the majority white population? Many of them aren't too flush for cash.
Well then I would also be interested in seeing the Home Office stats, especially if they're so totally at variance with the Met figures. Haven't read through this whole thread, so apologies if there's already a link buried somewhere in one of the posts.
Yes, there was. But I'm not sure what the police would seek to gain by spinning the data collection to overrepresent black people so heavily. Besides, that kind of overrepresentation could not arise purely from "massaging" or from a few sly statistical tweaks. The deception woild have to be quite a bit more drastic and systematic.
And yet they wouldn't do that for areas where white people commit the most crime proving that the prejudice existed before they got into the force, not after. Confirmation bias. If you're looking for something hard enough eventually you will find it.
Quoted for proof! So it's OK to develop prejudice for an entire community because of the actions of a minority? Thanks for reassuring me that my mistrust of the police is justified.
Haha, oh honestly give it a rest. I'm a man, and as a teenager me and my friends got stopped far more often than the girls we knew. I imagine this indicates the police's greater suspicion of us which itself might have something to do with young males committing more crimes.
If you're part of a visibly identifiable group that commits more crimes you can't exactly complain that the police end up noticing!