Kitkat,
I really like those examples of character arcs you described.
So, generally each regular character who leaves Holby (not via death) has the charater arc changed for the better. I like this way the producers do this tbh, that is why I end up liking previously awful characters who show abit of remorse and redeem themselves. I think this will be the way Jac goes.
This could be said for Hanssen too, he seems to be more humane now than when he first started as DoS where he made ruthless decisions and how he made Connie's working life difficult and she was the one ending as the person with a heart by leaving and saving Elliot's job.
Also, Michael seems to have changed from a womanising, reckless, egotistical surgeon to a person who had to eat humble pie after the 'Plastics scandal' and he is striving to try and find a good balance to spend time with his children as well as do what is best for his patients. He is not so ambitiously driven as before. He still has his flaws and that his ego comes up but its sort of subdued and that he still likes women but I think his choice these days are better than the ones had in the past.
Also, I think Eddi's arc had a sort of positive end as she acknowledged her problem went away to seek help for her addiction even though it was an incomplete arc as Luc didn't go with her. I am curious to see how Luc's arc ends, hopefully for the good.
There not always positive. Diane for instance went from a vey happy, competent Surgeon to a deeply unhappy woman stripped of her medical reputation who was so depressed she killed herself. Nick jordan left a worst person and I'd argue Ric is on a downward slide. However, generally they are for the better.
There not always positive. Diane for instance went from a vey happy, competent Surgeon to a deeply unhappy woman stripped of her medical reputation who was so depressed she killed herself. Nick jordan left a worst person and I'd argue Ric is on a downward slide. However, generally they are for the better.
I think Ric is on a downward slide, too. He has always been a character that I swing between liking (when he is doing his mentor thing and his romance with Diane) to loathing (when he is being grumpy old Ric or worse sanctimonious Ric) but overall he is a great character and a Holby legend and I would hate to see them destroy his character before he eventually leaves.
What do people think would be a good storyline for him?? I would like to see him laugh a bit more (Hugh Quarshi has the most gorgeous smile, it lights up his whole face) so a bit more interaction with Chantelle, I think. And maybe an age appropriate romance? Serena, maybe? For drama, it is always good when he goes up against the CEO so a battle with Imelda would be tasty!
There not always positive. Diane for instance went from a vey happy, competent Surgeon to a deeply unhappy woman stripped of her medical reputation who was so depressed she killed herself. Nick jordan left a worst person and I'd argue Ric is on a downward slide. However, generally they are for the better.
That is interesting, Diane was one of the most pleasant characters I recall, that is a quite sad character arc. Do you know the possible reasons for her wanting to end her life because her death was ambiguious. As far as I remember, she was on the track but was she stuck there or decide not to move ?
I agree that her death is ambiguous which is one of the the things I love about it. To this day, I insiste that she didn't so much kill herself as allow herself to be killed and as someone that has sufferred from severe clinical depression and seriiously considered suicide snd the effect it deliberate death to an accident on my family re them blaming themselves. Ie. I slit my wrists, hang myself they'll know it's deliberate and forever wonder what they could have done to stop it. I get hit by a car crossing a street or on a railway crossing, it can be marked down as an awful twist of fate, no blame accident. That is why I found Ric's big speach about Diane's suicide so selfish. One, he doesn't know for sure she did and two, he is making her parents live with the idea that their little girl, their second girl to die, didn'tt love them enough to llive for them. That's a hard thing fir anyone to take, let alone a parent that has already lost one child.
I wasn't saying people don't change.
I wasn't saying Jac hasn't changed.
I was just saying her becoming a better person on whatever level and going out on a high, living happily ever after would be a boring cliché. For me that would be worse than her dying.
Let me state for the record because I know there are some if not most that think I don't like Jac. I think she's a great character because she has that quality that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago. The want to slap them one episode and then the following week, high five them.
The mention of Seinfeld was that it was a show, sitcom that had characters that didn't learn from their mistakes, didn't grow and lacked decorum. However, it worked and that was the basic principle of the characters. It was one of my all time US sitcoms even if at the time of watching, didn't really think about character development until later and realising that there wasn't any but that was the USP of the show and what made it brilliant.
Dante, I completely get what you are saying. Oddly enough, I've just watched the last episode of frasier season 3, an episode which is mainly flashback to 3 months before Frasier started and demonstrates how far every character we know has come in love and acceptance of each other without realising it and continueing to bicker constantly.
Maybe I've misunderstood your views on Jac and Tara. If so, I'm really sorry. I completely understand wanting to cuddle and slap every scene - I feel like that about Jac, and Michael and jonny.
Frasier, another brilliantly written and acted sitcom. Frasier deserved his happy ending after 20 years of the crap he went through. [most of it bought on by his snobby attitude to life]
I'm re-watching Cheers on ITV4 as they've been kind enough to show every episode from the beginning. Just watching the episode where he marries Diane.
I think Tara is a naturally beautiful young lady and mentioned this on her first episode. However, she's a rubbish actress and the character is extremely annoying. There are rare occasions where she's not too bad like when she made up with Ollie last week.
Or when he doesn't marry diane as it turns out. Huge cheers fan as well and another prime example of characters changing - not necessarily for the better, but changing.
Or when he doesn't marry diane as it turns out. Huge cheers fan as well and another prime example of characters changing - not necessarily for the better, but changing.
Now you've spoiled it for me, I thought they tied the knot and lived happily ever after
Now you've spoiled it for me, I thought they tied the knot and lived happily ever after
'D
Sorry. I guezz I'd assumed if you'd seen Frasier you knew that he and Diane didn't live happily ever after. Believe me, if you've nver seen season 4 Cheers you are in for a treat. Resentfull Frasier, new blood Woody, Diane and Sam skkirting round each other, cliiff and norm reviewing. Conedy gold. I had every scene memorised on first taping in 84. Yes, that's how old I am.
Kitkat,
I really like those examples of character arcs you described.
So, generally each regular character who leaves Holby (not via death) has the charater arc changed for the better. I like this way the producers do this tbh, that is why I end up liking previously awful characters who show abit of remorse and redeem themselves. I think this will be the way Jac goes.
This could be said for Hanssen too, he seems to be more humane now than when he first started as DoS where he made ruthless decisions and how he made Connie's working life difficult and she was the one ending as the person with a heart by leaving and saving Elliot's job.
Also, Michael seems to have changed from a womanising, reckless, egotistical surgeon to a person who had to eat humble pie after the 'Plastics scandal' and he is striving to try and find a good balance to spend time with his children as well as do what is best for his patients. He is not so ambitiously driven as before. He still has his flaws and that his ego comes up but its sort of subdued and that he still likes women but I think his choice these days are better than the ones had in the past.
Also, I think Eddi's arc had a sort of positive end as she acknowledged her problem went away to seek help for her addiction even though it was an incomplete arc as Luc didn't go with her. I am curious to see how Luc's arc ends, hopefully for the good.
off topic slightly Michael moaning about how he would n't see his Kids at Christmas, as they are spending it in US with Mum and new fella.
Michael is an American spending Christmas in England, they (and Annalise) are English spending Christmas in America! if he could have time off at christmas to be with them here, why could he not have flown to America to be with them and see his Family, and why would Annalise not want to spend time in England to see her family instead of swanning off to Aspen or whereever this lodge is?
Surely with Visiting rights etc, Annalise cannot dictate this way, they would have organised it legallly for Michael to have kids over Xmas, yet she just texts him willy nilly to change stuff, used to feel sorry for Annalise over how Michael was with other women etc, but now she gets my goat.
I think Ric is on a downward slide, too. He has always been a character that I swing between liking (when he is doing his mentor thing and his romance with Diane) to loathing (when he is being grumpy old Ric or worse sanctimonious Ric) but overall he is a great character and a Holby legend and I would hate to see them destroy his character before he eventually leaves.
What do people think would be a good storyline for him?? I would like to see him laugh a bit more (Hugh Quarshi has the most gorgeous smile, it lights up his whole face) so a bit more interaction with Chantelle, I think. And maybe an age appropriate romance? Serena, maybe? For drama, it is always good when he goes up against the CEO so a battle with Imelda would be tasty!
No, she fanicies Michael
I would like Rick to find a "suitable" Woman and settle down, it would make him happier and it does not need to be a regular Character, just show him occasionally at home, but happy and contented, so he is happier at work (and more smiley ) difficult to know what to do with him work wise, he is a bit limited by the "NHS to the core" niche he has been put in, maybe do a storyline where he is tempted to do some private work, maybe because of money problems, and Something Bad happens, yes, I know it has been done with Sasha and Michael (Michael flip flopped more than a Politician on expenses :rolleyes:) but with Rick it would mean more as he is so solidly NHS, he would have to be desperate, which would hopefully provide some good drama.
off topic slightly Michael moaning about how he would n't see his Kids at Christmas, as they are spending it in US with Mum and new fella.
Michael is an American spending Christmas in England, they (and Annalise) are English spending Christmas in America! if he could have time off at christmas to be with them here, why could he not have flown to America to be with them and see his Family, and why would Annalise not want to spend time in England to see her family instead of swanning off to Aspen or whereever this lodge is?
Surely with Visiting rights etc, Annalise cannot dictate this way, they would have organised it legallly for Michael to have kids over Xmas, yet she just texts him willy nilly to change stuff, used to feel sorry for Annalise over how Michael was with other women etc, but now she gets my goat.
Michael needs a good Lawyer
That is all.
I agree with you on this, I really feel Michael is getting a raw deal with access to the kids and he is a good father. I don't get it either, with him over in the UK and Annalese in the US. I never gets a chance to see his kids, its always on her terms. Even Sacha put his foot down to Chrissie when she was taking advantage of of Danial's visiting times.
Women like that new Dr are the specific reason why when a woman claims she has been abused I just don't believe her. Sooner or later, someone will not be believed when they need to be. I am fed up of always having to make sure I am not in a room with a woman in case she tries that trick. Am I alone in wishing that she finds herself alone on Xmas day and drowns in her own tears? I know it takes all types to make a world, but would the world really go out of orbit without her?
'D
Sorry. I guezz I'd assumed if you'd seen Frasier you knew that he and Diane didn't live happily ever after. Believe me, if you've nver seen season 4 Cheers you are in for a treat. Resentfull Frasier, new blood Woody, Diane and Sam skkirting round each other, cliiff and norm reviewing. Conedy gold. I had every scene memorised on first taping in 84. Yes, that's how old I am.
I was joking. Of course I've seen all 10 seasons. I'm not one for spoilers as most on here will know.
Season 4 was 1985. Both Diane and Carla were pregnant during season 3. It was easy to write Carla's pregnancy into the script but Diane's was hidden for obvious reasons. When I say hidden I mean lots of scenes with her sitting or hiding behind the bar.
off topic slightly Michael moaning about how he would n't see his Kids at Christmas, as they are spending it in US with Mum and new fella.
Michael is an American spending Christmas in England, they (and Annalise) are English spending Christmas in America! if he could have time off at christmas to be with them here, why could he not have flown to America to be with them and see his Family, and why would Annalise not want to spend time in England to see her family instead of swanning off to Aspen or whereever this lodge is?
Surely with Visiting rights etc, Annalise cannot dictate this way, they would have organised it legallly for Michael to have kids over Xmas, yet she just texts him willy nilly to change stuff, used to feel sorry for Annalise over how Michael was with other women etc, but now she gets my goat.
Michael needs a good Lawyer
That is all.
She's living a new life and in love with a wonderful new man. That is why she'd rather be in America. Also Aspen is a beautiful place. if you get the chance, you should go visit.
As for Michael's rights, guilt is an amazing doubled edged tool that cuts both ways
I wouldn't mind Ollie in reserve (and Michael come to think of it) but that really would be greedy. I was first to ask for joseph wasn't I? Iu'll have some fun with him, make him see new wifey isn't for him and then give him back to Jac no worse for wear - promise.
KitKat - yes you were, so I suppose it's only fair that you have him, as long I can have Jonny!!!! Am not sure I'd be willing to give him back to Jac though :eek: but then if she's got a newly enlighted (and divorced!!) Joseph from you I'm sure she wouldn't mind:D
Dante Ameche
Let me state for the record because I know there are some if not most that think I don't like Jac. I think she's a great character because she has that quality that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago. The want to slap them one episode and then the following week, high five them.
I totally get where you're coming from, although have to admit that most of the time with Jac I just feel like giving her a huge (Sacha-like) hug and telling her not to cut off her nose to spite her face. (And I never got the feeling that you didn't like her!!)
Am I the only one that really resented call the Ruddy Midwife being on yesterday in Holby's slot. I know we'll never get HC on xmas day but I still missed it on a Tuesday. It's worse for me as I won't see it on Friday as I'll be at my inlaws and my husband's dad has a 'thing' about medical dramas and refuses to watch them. I may well need someone to PM or text me a synopsis straight afterwards! Any volanteers?
I've spent most of the day reading, bliss. Got to go and start dinner soon though.
Dante, yes of course you're right, season 4 cheers was the 85/86 season so actually started Jan 86 in the UK I think. I found the episode where diane was stuck under the floor the most inventive excuse for not shooting her from the neck down.
I also completely understand what you mean about Jac - I somersaukt like that within scenes of one episode some weeks.
Ric did used to do a lot of private work, he had to due to gambling debts but they seem to have left those character aspects behind in favour of Mr NHS that looks down on everybody else - a shame. Sadly, I think maybe they would have done better to have him die of Cancer in 10 as he really hasn't done much since and I'm not sure where there is to take him. I, for one, am bored of him lecturing, staring into the middle distance and befriending young female nurses in a semi paternalistiic way. It kind of worked with Donna as he was missing Jess and she her dad but they've repeated it with Elisabeth and Chantelle and it's getting old.
Comments
I really like those examples of character arcs you described.
So, generally each regular character who leaves Holby (not via death) has the charater arc changed for the better. I like this way the producers do this tbh, that is why I end up liking previously awful characters who show abit of remorse and redeem themselves. I think this will be the way Jac goes.
This could be said for Hanssen too, he seems to be more humane now than when he first started as DoS where he made ruthless decisions and how he made Connie's working life difficult and she was the one ending as the person with a heart by leaving and saving Elliot's job.
Also, Michael seems to have changed from a womanising, reckless, egotistical surgeon to a person who had to eat humble pie after the 'Plastics scandal' and he is striving to try and find a good balance to spend time with his children as well as do what is best for his patients. He is not so ambitiously driven as before. He still has his flaws and that his ego comes up but its sort of subdued and that he still likes women but I think his choice these days are better than the ones had in the past.
Also, I think Eddi's arc had a sort of positive end as she acknowledged her problem went away to seek help for her addiction even though it was an incomplete arc as Luc didn't go with her. I am curious to see how Luc's arc ends, hopefully for the good.
I think Ric is on a downward slide, too. He has always been a character that I swing between liking (when he is doing his mentor thing and his romance with Diane) to loathing (when he is being grumpy old Ric or worse sanctimonious Ric) but overall he is a great character and a Holby legend and I would hate to see them destroy his character before he eventually leaves.
What do people think would be a good storyline for him?? I would like to see him laugh a bit more (Hugh Quarshi has the most gorgeous smile, it lights up his whole face) so a bit more interaction with Chantelle, I think. And maybe an age appropriate romance? Serena, maybe? For drama, it is always good when he goes up against the CEO so a battle with Imelda would be tasty!
That is interesting, Diane was one of the most pleasant characters I recall, that is a quite sad character arc. Do you know the possible reasons for her wanting to end her life because her death was ambiguious. As far as I remember, she was on the track but was she stuck there or decide not to move ?
I wasn't saying Jac hasn't changed.
I was just saying her becoming a better person on whatever level and going out on a high, living happily ever after would be a boring cliché. For me that would be worse than her dying.
Let me state for the record because I know there are some if not most that think I don't like Jac. I think she's a great character because she has that quality that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago. The want to slap them one episode and then the following week, high five them.
The mention of Seinfeld was that it was a show, sitcom that had characters that didn't learn from their mistakes, didn't grow and lacked decorum. However, it worked and that was the basic principle of the characters. It was one of my all time US sitcoms even if at the time of watching, didn't really think about character development until later and realising that there wasn't any but that was the USP of the show and what made it brilliant.
Maybe I've misunderstood your views on Jac and Tara. If so, I'm really sorry. I completely understand wanting to cuddle and slap every scene - I feel like that about Jac, and Michael and jonny.
I'm re-watching Cheers on ITV4 as they've been kind enough to show every episode from the beginning. Just watching the episode where he marries Diane.
I think Tara is a naturally beautiful young lady and mentioned this on her first episode. However, she's a rubbish actress and the character is extremely annoying. There are rare occasions where she's not too bad like when she made up with Ollie last week.
Sorry. I guezz I'd assumed if you'd seen Frasier you knew that he and Diane didn't live happily ever after. Believe me, if you've nver seen season 4 Cheers you are in for a treat. Resentfull Frasier, new blood Woody, Diane and Sam skkirting round each other, cliiff and norm reviewing. Conedy gold. I had every scene memorised on first taping in 84. Yes, that's how old I am.
off topic slightly
Michael is an American spending Christmas in England, they (and Annalise) are English spending Christmas in America! if he could have time off at christmas to be with them here, why could he not have flown to America to be with them and see his Family, and why would Annalise not want to spend time in England to see her family instead of swanning off to Aspen or whereever this lodge is?
Surely with Visiting rights etc, Annalise cannot dictate this way, they would have organised it legallly for Michael to have kids over Xmas, yet she just texts him willy nilly to change stuff, used to feel sorry for Annalise over how Michael was with other women etc, but now she gets my goat.
Michael needs a good Lawyer
That is all.
No, she fanicies Michael
I would like Rick to find a "suitable" Woman and settle down, it would make him happier and it does not need to be a regular Character, just show him occasionally at home, but happy and contented, so he is happier at work (and more smiley
Just suggestions.:)
I agree with you on this, I really feel Michael is getting a raw deal with access to the kids and he is a good father. I don't get it either, with him over in the UK and Annalese in the US. I never gets a chance to see his kids, its always on her terms. Even Sacha put his foot down to Chrissie when she was taking advantage of of Danial's visiting times.
Cheers
Season 4 was 1985. Both Diane and Carla were pregnant during season 3. It was easy to write Carla's pregnancy into the script but Diane's was hidden for obvious reasons. When I say hidden I mean lots of scenes with her sitting or hiding behind the bar.
We could do with more comedy in Holby
As for Michael's rights, guilt is an amazing doubled edged tool that cuts both ways
Thanks for making this thread a nice place to spend time (unlike a lot of other ones).
Kate x
KitKat - yes you were, so I suppose it's only fair that you have him, as long I can have Jonny!!!! Am not sure I'd be willing to give him back to Jac though :eek: but then if she's got a newly enlighted (and divorced!!) Joseph from you I'm sure she wouldn't mind:D
I totally get where you're coming from, although have to admit that most of the time with Jac I just feel like giving her a huge (Sacha-like) hug and telling her not to cut off her nose to spite her face. (And I never got the feeling that you didn't like her!!)
I've spent most of the day reading, bliss. Got to go and start dinner soon though.
Dante, yes of course you're right, season 4 cheers was the 85/86 season so actually started Jan 86 in the UK I think. I found the episode where diane was stuck under the floor the most inventive excuse for not shooting her from the neck down.
I also completely understand what you mean about Jac - I somersaukt like that within scenes of one episode some weeks.
Ric did used to do a lot of private work, he had to due to gambling debts but they seem to have left those character aspects behind in favour of Mr NHS that looks down on everybody else - a shame. Sadly, I think maybe they would have done better to have him die of Cancer in 10 as he really hasn't done much since and I'm not sure where there is to take him. I, for one, am bored of him lecturing, staring into the middle distance and befriending young female nurses in a semi paternalistiic way. It kind of worked with Donna as he was missing Jess and she her dad but they've repeated it with Elisabeth and Chantelle and it's getting old.