Thank you very much for that. A most interesting and informative piece.
I have always tried to get my head around the very issues that you have commented on and your post is the closest I have ever seen to almost addressing this hard to explain issue.
It's the type of thing I would love to spend hours with an American talking about but boy would they take it completely the wrong way and think I'm putting them down.
One of the main questions would be: The American Dream like Conservatism doesn't and can never work for how can everyone be number 1? - To have that very position in anything, you have to have people who are lesser numbers. (More a statement than a question there) - I would then like to know: With all Americans trying to be number 1, how does the American psyche deal with failure? - And thirdly: Why should people be judged on their achievements when you can have a great "Achiever" who is complete jerk and someone who has achieved little, but is a decent, nice person?
(A truly fascinating subject with no offence intended towards anyone)
The American Dream is not or never has been about getting rich. It IS about working hard to achieve more than the previous generation to provide better for the following generation.
American Exceptionalism is about striving to be the best in that everyone knows there can only be 1 #1 but if you set your goals high you will always be better off than accepting mediocrity. (example: Out of 10 people, if you strive to be #1 but only end up #3 then you are better off than just striving to be #5)
The comparison to Hitler is just plain stupid and probably pretty insulting to many non-Americans.
The American Dream is not or never has been about getting rich. It IS about working hard to achieve more than the previous generation to provide better for the following generation.
American Exceptionalism is about striving to be the best in that everyone knows there can only be 1 #1 but if you set your goals high you will always be better off than accepting mediocrity. (example: Out of 10 people, if you strive to be #1 but only end up #3 then you are better off than just striving to be #5).
It has nothing to do with striving to be the best - it's the belief that the US is unique in the world due to the nature of it's formation
We would all be a lot better off if we looked at our enemy as politicians and the one percent instead of cheerleading whichever one of their empires we were born in.
It's not just continentals that are learning the wrong kinds of spelling.
Thanks to the internet our own children are learning American English. Try finding more than one person in a hundred, in this country, under the age of twenty, who spells "disc" with a 'c', or hasn't caught the appalling habit of putting a 'z' where an 's' should be (realize, recognize, colonize and so on).
The internet is corrupting our language by stealth.
However with 'disk' - this specifically refers to those you used to put into a computer (back in the days when you did) with 'disc' for every other kind and 'program' refers to a computer program and programme refers to any other type.
Actually when I feel like being a grumpy old man the thing that really grates is the way most program installers have an entry for 'American English' but no entry for real English, UK English or whatever you class not American English as.
We would all be a lot better off if we looked at our enemy as politicians and the one percent instead of cheerleading whichever one of their empires we were born in.
It has nothing to do with striving to be the best - it's the belief that the US is unique in the world due to the nature of it's formation
Exactly! We here in England know and understand the concept of working hard and striving to improve oneself here, we just don't go on and on about it or see it as the only way in life to be happy. We don't strive for mediocrity but we can quietly cope with it without sending up fireworks and waving flags.
Jingoistic is the word I'm looking for. It's all 'stick a star on it, paint it in loud colours (colors) and make sure you tell everyone just how truly great you are, in case they should just rely on there own opinion'.
It really is like the concept of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - If one goes around telling everyone just how beautiful they think they are, it kind of misses the whole point and doesn't make them so. There are many beautiful, wonderful, truly great Americans: We can make our own minds up about that as telling us just screams of insecurity. That truly is the difference between the American way and the English way. England doesn't always put itself and others down, it is just capable of facing reality and coping with that without dressing it up and pretending it's anything else.
Exactly! We here in England know and understand the concept of working hard and striving to improve oneself here, we just don't go on and on about it or see it as the only way in life to be happy. We don't strive for mediocrity but we can quietly cope with it without sending up fireworks and waving flags.
Jingoistic is the word I'm looking for. It's all 'stick a star on it, paint it in loud colours (colors) and make sure you tell everyone just how truly great you are, in case they should just rely on there own opinion'.
It really is like the concept of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - If one goes around telling everyone just how beautiful they think they are, it kind of misses the whole point and doesn't make them so. There are many beautiful, wonderful, truly great Americans: We can make our own minds up about that as telling us just screams of insecurity. That truly is the difference between the American way and the English way. England doesn't always put itself and others down, it is just capable of facing reality and coping with that without dressing it up and pretending it's anything else.
This fantasy England of yours sounds marvellous, but it isn't really one I recognise. Jingoism is hardly unheard of here!
Exactly! We here in England know and understand the concept of working hard and striving to improve oneself here, we just don't go on and on about it or see it as the only way in life to be happy. We don't strive for mediocrity but we can quietly cope with it without sending up fireworks and waving flags.
Jingoistic is the word I'm looking for. It's all 'stick a star on it, paint it in loud colours (colors) and make sure you tell everyone just how truly great you are, in case they should just rely on there own opinion'.
It really is like the concept of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - If one goes around telling everyone just how beautiful they think they are, it kind of misses the whole point and doesn't make them so. There are many beautiful, wonderful, truly great Americans: We can make our own minds up about that as telling us just screams of insecurity. That truly is the difference between the American way and the English way. England doesn't always put itself and others down, it is just capable of facing reality and coping with that without dressing it up and pretending it's anything else.
You have a class system though, don't you.
One good thing about the US is its class fluidity. You can come from anywhere and get to there. There could be some old money cohesiveness, but even that has faded to a large extent.
One good thing about the US is its class fluidity. You can come from anywhere and get to there. There could be some old money cohesiveness, but even that has faded to a large extent.
Would a poor person be able to become president? Genuine question as I have heard it said, you have to have money and influence to run. I'm not a politicly minded person
but would be interesting what the difference is between out countries for making it to the top.
Would a poor person be able to become president? ...................
It doesn't sound as though Ronald Reagan's parents could be called wealthy :
Ronald Wilson Reagan was born in an apartment on the second floor of a commercial building in Tampico, Illinois on February 6, 1911, to Jack Reagan and Nelle (Wilson) Reagan.[3] Reagan's father was a salesman and a storyteller, the grandson of Irish Catholic immigrants from County Tipperary,
But would he have become president if he wasn't wealthy or a actor?
Although I liked RR, he never felt like he was a real president. Maybe because I knew him as a actor?
Would a poor person be able to become president? Genuine question as I have heard it said, you have to have money and influence to run. I'm not a politicly minded person
but would be interesting what the difference is between out countries for making it to the top.
Thank you very much for that. A most interesting and informative piece.
I have always tried to get my head around the very issues that you have commented on and your post is the closest I have ever seen to almost addressing this hard to explain issue.
It's the type of thing I would love to spend hours with an American talking about but boy would they take it completely the wrong way and think I'm putting them down.
One of the main questions would be: The American Dream like Conservatism doesn't and can never work for how can everyone be number 1?- To have that very position in anything, you have to have people who are lesser numbers. (More a statement than a question there) -
And thirdly:
Why should people be judged on their achievements when you can have a great "Achiever" who is complete jerk and someone who has achieved little, but is a decent, nice person?
(A truly fascinating subject with no offence intended towards anyone)
You see this is where you got off on the wrong foot. Right from the beginning. Then you weren't indulged. Your response was to dig in your heels. Disclaimers like the one coattailed on the end can seem hollow when they punctuate all that came before it. I don't really think you understand the American Dream. If the premise of your queries are false then it's a bit optimistic to expect to receive a direct response relevant to those questions. Your three questions:
One of the main questions would be: The American Dream like Conservatism doesn't and can never work for how can everyone be number 1?
Does the American Dream demand that everyone strive to be #1? No.
I would then like to know: With all Americans trying to be number 1, how does the American psyche deal with failure? -
This question is completely dependent on the first which is in turn based on a false premise.
Why should people be judged on their achievements when you can have a great "Achiever" who is complete jerk and someone who has achieved little, but is a decent, nice person?
Does the American Dream demand that you judge others? No.
The overriding idea is social mobility and the "pursuit of happiness." A broad idea. That can be different things for different people. That might mean aspiring to be an engineer, a fireman, a teacher, or a vicar. It often means something as simple as owning your own home. It doesn't necessarily mean owning a yacht, an estate, or being #1 at anything. Although it doesn't preclude that either. There is no one definition of "achievement" in terms of outcomes. It's about station or birth not restraining your goals and ambitions. So in real world practise it's more an ideal than an idea. People sometimes conflate the American Dream with Capitalism. But the actual criticism of Capitalism's flaws address the chasm between the idea and the realisation of the ideal. The ideal itself is considered laudable by those with different political views. The American dream is by no means limited to the US. It's a general precept inherent in most modern western democracies. The intent behind it is that it's aspirational not judgmental. That would actually be the very antithesis. It doesn't concern what other people are doing or have done. If anything it is an entrenched class system that encourages people to be judgy.
That's how the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish see the English which goes back to my point earlier. Funny that!
Well more fools them then if they really think that about us (and they are entitled to do so) and were given the one big chance to do something about it last night. They decided to stick with us for all they could milk from us.
You see this is where you got off on the wrong foot. Right from the beginning. Then you weren't indulged. Your response was to dig in your heels. Disclaimers like the one coattailed on the end can seem hollow when they punctuate all that came before it. I don't really think you understand the American Dream. If the premise of your queries are false then it's a bit optimistic to expect to receive a direct response relevant to those questions. Your three questions:
One of the main questions would be: The American Dream like Conservatism doesn't and can never work for how can everyone be number 1?
Does the American Dream demand that everyone strive to be #1? No.
I would then like to know: With all Americans trying to be number 1, how does the American psyche deal with failure? -
This question is completely dependent on the first which is in turn based on a false premise.
Why should people be judged on their achievements when you can have a great "Achiever" who is complete jerk and someone who has achieved little, but is a decent, nice person?
Does the American Dream demand that you judge others? No.
The overriding idea is social mobility and the "pursuit of happiness." A broad idea. That can be different things for different people. That might mean aspiring to be an engineer, a fireman, a teacher, or a vicar. It often means something as simple as owning your own home. It doesn't necessarily mean owning a yacht, an estate, or being #1 at anything. Although it doesn't preclude that either. There is no one definition of "achievement" in terms of outcomes. It's about station or birth not restraining your goals and ambitions. So in real world practise it's more an ideal than an idea. People sometimes conflate the American Dream with Capitalism. But the actual criticism of Capitalism's flaws address the chasm between the idea and the realisation of the ideal. The ideal itself is considered laudable by those with different political views. The American dream is by no means limited to the US. It's a general precept inherent in most modern western democracies. The intent behind it is that it's aspirational not judgmental. That would actually be the very antithesis. It doesn't concern what other people are doing or have done. If anything it is an entrenched class system that encourages people to be judgy.
Well! Thank you for at least attempting to address the questions and give your view. Certainly an 8.5 out of 10 for the first rather dismissive bit, but a good 9.5 out of 10 for the final paragraph. Well thought out and explained.
You achieved more than many here. Some gave up without trying. (Must be British! )
My original point though is that there is more class fluidity in the US.
Not really. Class snobbery and discrimination exist in the U.S. Always have. The 400 (an elite wealthy group during the 20th century) made a significant effort to block wealthy Irish people from becoming part of their world. Their tactics were petty and pretty nasty including not turning up at Irish people's balls and parties after accepting invitations. This is a tiny example.
I know I am only a stupid American who couldn't possibly ever understand irony but I do find it a bit funny that there are threads where posters spend page after page discussing how peculiar it is that Americans think they are superior and have the mindset that they must be #1 at everything while at the same time going on to proclaim that the British have a superior sense of humor, superior chocolate, superior spelling, superior pronunciation, etc.
...and are even the best at putting themselves down!
I know I am only a stupid American who couldn't possibly ever understand irony but I do find it a bit funny that there are threads where posters spend page after page discussing how peculiar it is that Americans think they are superior and have the mindset that they must be #1 at everything while at the same time going on to proclaim that the British have a superior sense of humor, superior chocolate, superior spelling, superior pronunciation, etc.
...and are even the best at putting themselves down!
I know I am only a stupid American who couldn't possibly ever understand irony but I do find it a bit funny that there are threads where posters spend page after page discussing how peculiar it is that Americans think they are superior and have the mindset that they must be #1 at everything while at the same time going on to proclaim that the British have a superior sense of humor, superior chocolate, superior spelling, superior pronunciation, etc.
...and are even the best at putting themselves down!
Ha! I pointed out that irony in another thread recently where someone on here ever so kindly explained to me that in Europe they usually tend to be more humble and self-effacing, whereas "yanks" are more arrogant.
I know I am only a stupid American who couldn't possibly ever understand irony but I do find it a bit funny that there are threads where posters spend page after page discussing how peculiar it is that Americans think they are superior and have the mindset that they must be #1 at everything while at the same time going on to proclaim that the British have a superior sense of humor, superior chocolate, superior spelling, superior pronunciation, etc.
...and are even the best at putting themselves down!
Ha! I pointed out that irony in another thread recently where someone on here ever so kindly explained to me that in Europe they usually tend to be more humble and self-effacing, whereas "yanks" are more arrogant.
Where is the self-awareness?
The irony is not lost on me either. That's because we Brits are really really good at irony.
Comments
That's how the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish see the English which goes back to my point earlier. Funny that!
The American Dream is not or never has been about getting rich. It IS about working hard to achieve more than the previous generation to provide better for the following generation.
American Exceptionalism is about striving to be the best in that everyone knows there can only be 1 #1 but if you set your goals high you will always be better off than accepting mediocrity. (example: Out of 10 people, if you strive to be #1 but only end up #3 then you are better off than just striving to be #5)
The comparison to Hitler is just plain stupid and probably pretty insulting to many non-Americans.
It has nothing to do with striving to be the best - it's the belief that the US is unique in the world due to the nature of it's formation
However with 'disk' - this specifically refers to those you used to put into a computer (back in the days when you did) with 'disc' for every other kind and 'program' refers to a computer program and programme refers to any other type.
Actually when I feel like being a grumpy old man the thing that really grates is the way most program installers have an entry for 'American English' but no entry for real English, UK English or whatever you class not American English as.
Amen!
Exactly! We here in England know and understand the concept of working hard and striving to improve oneself here, we just don't go on and on about it or see it as the only way in life to be happy. We don't strive for mediocrity but we can quietly cope with it without sending up fireworks and waving flags.
Jingoistic is the word I'm looking for. It's all 'stick a star on it, paint it in loud colours (colors) and make sure you tell everyone just how truly great you are, in case they should just rely on there own opinion'.
It really is like the concept of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - If one goes around telling everyone just how beautiful they think they are, it kind of misses the whole point and doesn't make them so. There are many beautiful, wonderful, truly great Americans: We can make our own minds up about that as telling us just screams of insecurity. That truly is the difference between the American way and the English way. England doesn't always put itself and others down, it is just capable of facing reality and coping with that without dressing it up and pretending it's anything else.
This fantasy England of yours sounds marvellous, but it isn't really one I recognise. Jingoism is hardly unheard of here!
You have a class system though, don't you.
One good thing about the US is its class fluidity. You can come from anywhere and get to there. There could be some old money cohesiveness, but even that has faded to a large extent.
Would a poor person be able to become president? Genuine question as I have heard it said, you have to have money and influence to run. I'm not a politicly minded person
but would be interesting what the difference is between out countries for making it to the top.
OK Maggie Thatcher wasn't poor but her family were not rich either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher
It doesn't sound as though Ronald Reagan's parents could be called wealthy :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan
But would he have become president if he wasn't wealthy or a actor?
Although I liked RR, he never felt like he was a real president. Maybe because I knew him as a actor?
Yes a poor person can if they can get political and financial backing.
In addition there are numerous scholarships so that a poor person can potentially go to Harvard and then get rich that way.
Thanks. MT got a scholarship.
You see this is where you got off on the wrong foot. Right from the beginning. Then you weren't indulged. Your response was to dig in your heels. Disclaimers like the one coattailed on the end can seem hollow when they punctuate all that came before it. I don't really think you understand the American Dream. If the premise of your queries are false then it's a bit optimistic to expect to receive a direct response relevant to those questions. Your three questions:
One of the main questions would be: The American Dream like Conservatism doesn't and can never work for how can everyone be number 1?
Does the American Dream demand that everyone strive to be #1? No.
I would then like to know: With all Americans trying to be number 1, how does the American psyche deal with failure? -
This question is completely dependent on the first which is in turn based on a false premise.
Why should people be judged on their achievements when you can have a great "Achiever" who is complete jerk and someone who has achieved little, but is a decent, nice person?
Does the American Dream demand that you judge others? No.
The overriding idea is social mobility and the "pursuit of happiness." A broad idea. That can be different things for different people. That might mean aspiring to be an engineer, a fireman, a teacher, or a vicar. It often means something as simple as owning your own home. It doesn't necessarily mean owning a yacht, an estate, or being #1 at anything. Although it doesn't preclude that either. There is no one definition of "achievement" in terms of outcomes. It's about station or birth not restraining your goals and ambitions. So in real world practise it's more an ideal than an idea. People sometimes conflate the American Dream with Capitalism. But the actual criticism of Capitalism's flaws address the chasm between the idea and the realisation of the ideal. The ideal itself is considered laudable by those with different political views. The American dream is by no means limited to the US. It's a general precept inherent in most modern western democracies. The intent behind it is that it's aspirational not judgmental. That would actually be the very antithesis. It doesn't concern what other people are doing or have done. If anything it is an entrenched class system that encourages people to be judgy.
My original point though is that there is more class fluidity in the US.
Well more fools them then if they really think that about us (and they are entitled to do so) and were given the one big chance to do something about it last night. They decided to stick with us for all they could milk from us.
Who is using whom I wonder?
Well! Thank you for at least attempting to address the questions and give your view. Certainly an 8.5 out of 10 for the first rather dismissive bit, but a good 9.5 out of 10 for the final paragraph. Well thought out and explained.
You achieved more than many here. Some gave up without trying. (Must be British!
Not really. Class snobbery and discrimination exist in the U.S. Always have. The 400 (an elite wealthy group during the 20th century) made a significant effort to block wealthy Irish people from becoming part of their world. Their tactics were petty and pretty nasty including not turning up at Irish people's balls and parties after accepting invitations. This is a tiny example.
...and are even the best at putting themselves down!
Ha! I pointed out that irony in another thread recently where someone on here ever so kindly explained to me that in Europe they usually tend to be more humble and self-effacing, whereas "yanks" are more arrogant.
Where is the self-awareness?
The irony is not lost on me either. That's because we Brits are really really good at irony.
Haha, well played!
Lol...