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Don't Select Black Players

James1953James1953 Posts: 4,840
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"FA told Graham Taylor not to pick ‘too many’ black players for England

The Football Association tried to impose an unofficial quota system on the number of black players an England manager should be allowed to use, according to a new book about racism within the sport.

Pitch Black, written by Emy Onuora, includes a passage in which an anti-racism in football campaigner claims Graham Taylor admitted to him he had been summoned by two members of the FA’s hierarchy and told “in no uncertain terms” he should not go beyond a certain limit."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/06/graham-taylor-told-not-pick-too-many-black-players-fa-england

Just heard a clip of Taylor on the radio saying he couldn't remember saying this and it is not the type of thing he would say

Hope they've got proof he did say it or it may cost them a few quid
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    Eddie hunterEddie hunter Posts: 4,231
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    I suspect what they actually said was "don't pick carlton Palmer"
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    Jamesp84Jamesp84 Posts: 31,233
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    I suspect what they actually said was "don't pick carlton Palmer"

    :D

    I presume Taylor picking Tony Daley ahead of Chris Waddle was his way of protesting against any directive...
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    St. AnthonySt. Anthony Posts: 1,122
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    At the time there were still a lot of England fans who exhibited racist behaviour, maybe the Members of the FA were telling Graham not to have too many black players so as not to antagonise these fans (?)

    True though, he always found room for Carlton, and at the time I can't really think of many great black players (John Barnes was kind of past his best).
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    codebluecodeblue Posts: 14,072
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    Very interesting to see what happens here!
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    Eddie hunterEddie hunter Posts: 4,231
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    Barnes took a hell of a lot of stick when playing for England. He was subjected to vile abuse, some of it clearly racist as well but im not sure if it was because he was black or if it was because he was seen to be rubbish in an England shirt and the fans weren't above using his colour as part of the abuse. I seem to remember the extent of the vitriol aimed at Taylor himself was probably well beyond anything acceptable too.

    Two things spring immediately to mind.

    The first is that I don't see how Taylor can possibly say he "cant remember" with any degree of credibility. It doesn't strike me as something you would forget or forget saying.

    The second is that I cant think of too many black English players at the time who were noticeably not getting picked? Des Walker, Carlton Palmer, Tony Daley, Ian Wright, Paul Parker, Les Ferdinand, Paul Ince etc all seemed to get picked with ease under Taylor.
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    crabstercrabster Posts: 653
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    He never took a single black player to USA 94'.


    Oh, wait a minute...
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    celesticelesti Posts: 26,013
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    Does this book contain pages or just a load of RACE CARDS stapled together? Right? Huh?
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    codebluecodeblue Posts: 14,072
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    The first is that I don't see how Taylor can possibly say he "cant remember" with any degree of credibility. It doesn't strike me as something you would forget or forget saying.

    The wording that Taylor is using is crucial to this story.

    "That is not me trying to evade it - and it also doesn't mean I didn't say it - but if anyone looks at my record with club and country, it would be obvious to everyone anyway that I didn't follow what was apparently said."

    I don't think anyone is questioning if GT limited the number of black players he chose.

    But if you read his first statement we could infer that

    a) he could have said it (that the FA asked him to limit the number)
    b) he didnt follow the advice of what was said (by the FA)

    "If anyone looks at my record, I could never be accused of blocking the way for any black player."

    I'm pretty sure GT didn't follow any directives, but the argument is that they came, not that they were followed.

    He later clarified what he meant, but his initial statement actually disagrees with his later statements.

    What a mess.
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    gasheadgashead Posts: 13,822
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    The first is that I don't see how Taylor can possibly say he "cant remember" with any degree of credibility. It doesn't strike me as something you would forget or forget saying.
    According to a DM article on Taylor's 5Live interview, he did explicitly say it's not something you'd forget discussing:

    It has taken me by complete surprise because I cannot remember anything about it at all,’ Taylor told the BBC. ‘Certainly never during my time at the Football Association I had no FA people coming up to me and telling me which team to pick and to pick less black players. I would have remembered that.
    ‘I have no memory of that conversation (with Moran). There certainly was an event at Watford. I can remember that, but I certainly have no memory of a conversation about black players.’
    When asked if there was even a remote possibility he could have had a conversation with FA members about limiting the number of black players, he said: ‘That is one of the things you’re never going to forget.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3070820/Graham-Taylor-told-no-uncertain-terms-FA-officials-not-pick-black-players-England.html

    This is one of those things that's impossible to prove either way. An author (person a) is claiming that someone else (person b) was told by Taylor (person c) something he was told by nameless, faceless people at the FA (persons d) fifteen years ago. You may have been joking with your comment about Carlton Palmer, but I can well believe that a comment losely along those lines may have been made all those years ago, that has been Chinese Whisper-ed up to this big race issue in this book. Or, it could all be entirely made up to promote it.

    Taylor talks about taking 'some form of legal advice', but I doubt there's anything he can do. The author isn't claiming that Taylor was behind the directive. Indeed, the evidence would suggest that if it was ever made, Taylor ignored it, so it's not libelous to him.
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    The_don1The_don1 Posts: 17,465
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    How am I going to let people know about this book?

    I know I will make up some nonsense that cannot be proven one way or another
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    soulboy77soulboy77 Posts: 24,494
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    Basically it's hearsay so unless Taylor or the supposed two FA hierarchy members admit that the story is true, then nothing can be proved.
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    kobashi100kobashi100 Posts: 5,774
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    I suspect what they actually said was "don't pick carlton Palmer"

    I do remember carlton scoring a great goal vs Ipswich I think when he was at Sheffield Wednesday.

    Only decent thing I remember him ever doing.
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    SnrDevSnrDev Posts: 6,094
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    gashead wrote: »
    ‘Certainly never during my time at the Football Association I had no FA people coming up to me and telling me which team to pick and to pick less black players.'
    Utterly appalling. It's fewer, not less. Words fail me. Taylor out. Now.
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    Mark FMark F Posts: 54,048
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    I am sure we would have heard such a story by now some 20 years on if there was a real truth to it?
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    celesticelesti Posts: 26,013
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    I don't know, we're only just hearing that George Best was actually called Ronald apparently.
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    ArmchairDieHardArmchairDieHard Posts: 282
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    I'm sure Graham Taylor finds this whole situation, at the very least, hugely embarrassing.

    This story is going to run and run and run.
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    PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    typical response whenever anything like this is brought up. if it can't be proven then it most definitely didn't happen.
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    ArmchairDieHardArmchairDieHard Posts: 282
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    Pee wrote: »
    typical response whenever anything like this is brought up. if it can't be proven then it most definitely didn't happen.

    What are your thoughts on it?
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    The_don1The_don1 Posts: 17,465
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    Maybe it did or maybe it didn't.

    But we have one word against another.

    Am sure people will look at the two parties involved and pick which person to believe.

    Does it matter if it happened or not? Not really as looking at the players he picked and the players he could have picked he seemed to ignore the request.
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    ArmchairDieHardArmchairDieHard Posts: 282
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    The_don1 wrote: »
    Maybe it did or maybe it didn't.

    But we have one word against another.

    Am sure people will look at the two parties involved and pick which person to believe.

    Does it matter if it happened or not? Not really as looking at the players he picked and the players he could have picked he seemed to ignore the request.

    I'd say it matters enormously. Just because he ignored any request (if it did happen) doesn't mean it should be ignored.
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    The_don1The_don1 Posts: 17,465
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    I'd say it matters enormously. Just because he ignored any request (if it did happen) doesn't mean it should be ignored.

    Was their racism in the FA during those years? 100% as there was racism throughout the game in those days. On the pitch,Off the pitch,Players,Managers,Fans so that it was in the boardroom of the FA cannot be that shocking.

    It would be more shocking if some members of the FA did not think like that. The fact that one of the idiots said something to someone who totally ignored the rubbish said to him is not really news.

    Taylor more then likely heard statements like that from many sections of the football world quite often.
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    ArmchairDieHardArmchairDieHard Posts: 282
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    The_don1 wrote: »
    Was their racism in the FA during those years? 100% as there was racism throughout the game in those days. On the pitch,Off the pitch,Players,Managers,Fans so that it was in the boardroom of the FA cannot be that shocking.

    It would be more shocking if some members of the FA did not think like that. The fact that one of the idiots said something to someone who totally ignored the rubbish said to him is not really news.

    Taylor more then likely heard statements like that from many sections of the football world quite often.

    We don't know what was said or by whom. Maybe it was more than one person trying to prevent certain players being called up?

    What if some of those people are still under employment at the FA now? What if they are in very privileged positions?
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    Deep PurpleDeep Purple Posts: 63,255
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    Taylor says it never happened, a bloke trying to sell a book says someone told him it did. Who has the most reason at this time to bring this up?

    Richie Moran didn't make it, and has not been quiet in his quest to allege racism at every turn, with claims that some of the biggest names in the game racially abused him.

    Taylors record on selection is there for all to see, and black players had been playing regularly at all levels by those days. Racism was about then, not as bad as 20 years earlier, and not as good as now, but throwing this around, and using Taylors name seems to be a publicity method.

    Knowing it can never be proved doesn't take the publicity away, but without proof, something like this should not be thrown around.
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    PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    ok cool, so now we're playing the "let's try and discredit the side we don't like" game.

    so let's say that conversation did actually take place, it shouldn't ever be mentioned as it can't now be proved?
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    Jim_McIntoshJim_McIntosh Posts: 5,866
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    James1953 wrote: »
    "FA told Graham Taylor not to pick ‘too many’ black players for England

    The Football Association tried to impose an unofficial quota system on the number of black players an England manager should be allowed to use, according to a new book about racism within the sport.

    Pitch Black, written by Emy Onuora, includes a passage in which an anti-racism in football campaigner claims Graham Taylor admitted to him he had been summoned by two members of the FA’s hierarchy and told “in no uncertain terms” he should not go beyond a certain limit."

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/06/graham-taylor-told-not-pick-too-many-black-players-fa-england

    Just heard a clip of Taylor on the radio saying he couldn't remember saying this and it is not the type of thing he would say

    Hope they've got proof he did say it or it may cost them a few quid

    I'm not sure I trust 3rd hand references.

    There's no doubt there was a problem historically but not sure anyone can point the finger at Graham Taylor.

    Ian Wright
    Mark Walters
    John Barnes
    Des Walker
    Paul Parker
    David Rocastle
    Carlton Palmer
    Paul Ince
    Earl Barrett
    Keith Curle
    Tony Daley
    Brian Deane
    Les Ferdinand
    Andy Gray
    John Salako

    http://www.sporcle.com/games/Derrie/grahamtaylor

    15 of 59 players used were black or of mixed race. Is that a low amount? I barely remember English football at that time so can't judge what the figures should have been. As it is, a quarter seems like a reasonable amount. In comparison with, say, twenty years earlier it's a massive improvement.
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