Sorry, guys, I know everyone likes a conspiracy theory, but Grade would have taken Doctor Who off even if Peter Davison had still been in the role.
He wanted to save some money, disliked sci-fi (hence why he killed Tripods as well), he thought Doctor Who's production values were a joke and he was never in a million years going to spend more money on it. That's why he took it off.
Couldn't disagree more!
Having been one of those fans who is a veteran of the Longleat 20th Anniversary event, the turn out for that in 1983 alone solidified both the popularity of the show and of PDs portrayal of the Doctor. Nope, if PD had stayed, Doctor Who MAY have survived a while longer and MAY not have resulted in some more rash and knee jerk decisions re casting for both actors and writers!
In Season 19, Davison reversed the ratings slump of Season 18 and proved to be a popular Doctor. So it I don't think it wouldn't have happened then.
Season 20 was an anniversary year so I doubt it would have been taken of then either.
Mybae, just maybe, it may have happened during Season 21, but I think the popularity of Davison at that time would have caused a bigger uproar than it did in 1985 and the show had not yet it's violent phase that happened in Season 22, which at the time was the reason given for it being taken off-air.
I was saying that if Davison had stayed for Season 22, I still believe Grade would have taken the show off.
You are absolutely spot-on that the ratings for Davison's first season were far better than Tom Baker's last, but Davison's second and third seasons did not have such good ratings again.
If you look at the ratings for Season 21 and Season 22, there really isn't a lot of difference:
Season 21
603. Part One Thu 05.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.6M/51st/65%
604. Part Two Fri 06.04.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.5M/52nd/64%
605. Part Three 12.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.3M/74th/62%
606. Part Four 13.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6M/87th/65%
607. Part One 19.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.9M/61st/65%
608. Part Two 20.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6M/84th/63%
609. Part One 26.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 8.0M/ 58th/66%
610. Part Two 27.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 5.8M/115th/69%
611. Part Three 02.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8M/ 59th/65%
612. Part Four 03.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 5.6M/112th/65%
613. Part One Wed 08.02.84 6.50pm - 7.35pm 7.31M/73rd/69%
614. Part Two 15.02.84 6.50pm - 7.40pm ~ 7.95M/53rd/65%
615. Part One Thu 23.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/ 71st
616. Part Two Fri 24.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.1M/102nd
617. Part Three 01.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/ 67th
618. Part Four 02.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.0M/ 74th
619. Part One 08.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.9 M/66th/65%
620. Part Two 09.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6 M/75th/---
621. Part Three 15.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8 M/62nd/---
622. Part Four 16.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8 M/62nd/68%
623. Part One 22.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.6M/66th/61%
624. Part Two 23.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/71st/66%
625. Part Three 29.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.0M/69th/59%
626. Part Four 30.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.3M/81st/67%
Season 22
627. Part One Sat 05.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 8.9M/ 71st/61%
628. Part Two 12.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.2M/104th/65%
629. Part One 19.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.2M/110th/63%
630. Part Two 26.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.0M/108th/65%
631. Part One 02.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.8M/111th/64%
632. Part Two 09.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.3M/ 84th/64%
633. Part One 16.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.6M/92nd/65%
634. Part Two 23.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.0M/90th/62%
635. Part Three 02.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.9M/66th/65%
636. Part One 09.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.7M/69th/66%
637. Part Two 16.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.4M/79th/64%
638. Part One 23.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.4M/65th/67%
639. Part Two 30.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.7M/58th/65%
There's no evidence that there was any big ratings drop when Colin took over, or that the ratings would have been much better if Peter had stayed.
The violence would also have been an issue whether Peter or Colin was the Doctor, as the violence was introduced into the scripts by Eric Saward in particular (and apparently approved of by JNT).
Grade claimed that ratings and violence were the principal reasons for taking it off at the time, as well as a lack of imagination and wit in the stories (in his opinion).
I was saying that if Davison had stayed for Season 22, I still believe Grade would have taken the show off.
You are absolutely spot-on that the ratings for Davison's first season were far better than Tom Baker's last, but Davison's second and third seasons did not have such good ratings again.
If you look at the ratings for Season 21 and Season 22, there really isn't a lot of difference:
Season 21
603. Part One Thu 05.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.6M/51st/65%
604. Part Two Fri 06.04.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.5M/52nd/64%
605. Part Three 12.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.3M/74th/62%
606. Part Four 13.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6M/87th/65%
607. Part One 19.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.9M/61st/65%
608. Part Two 20.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6M/84th/63%
609. Part One 26.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 8.0M/ 58th/66%
610. Part Two 27.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 5.8M/115th/69%
611. Part Three 02.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8M/ 59th/65%
612. Part Four 03.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 5.6M/112th/65%
613. Part One Wed 08.02.84 6.50pm - 7.35pm 7.31M/73rd/69%
614. Part Two 15.02.84 6.50pm - 7.40pm ~ 7.95M/53rd/65%
615. Part One Thu 23.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/ 71st
616. Part Two Fri 24.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.1M/102nd
617. Part Three 01.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/ 67th
618. Part Four 02.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.0M/ 74th
619. Part One 08.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.9 M/66th/65%
620. Part Two 09.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6 M/75th/---
621. Part Three 15.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8 M/62nd/---
622. Part Four 16.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8 M/62nd/68%
623. Part One 22.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.6M/66th/61%
624. Part Two 23.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/71st/66%
625. Part Three 29.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.0M/69th/59%
626. Part Four 30.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.3M/81st/67%
Season 22
627. Part One Sat 05.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 8.9M/ 71st/61%
628. Part Two 12.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.2M/104th/65%
629. Part One 19.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.2M/110th/63%
630. Part Two 26.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.0M/108th/65%
631. Part One 02.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.8M/111th/64%
632. Part Two 09.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.3M/ 84th/64%
633. Part One 16.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.6M/92nd/65%
634. Part Two 23.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.0M/90th/62%
635. Part Three 02.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.9M/66th/65%
636. Part One 09.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.7M/69th/66%
637. Part Two 16.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.4M/79th/64%
638. Part One 23.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.4M/65th/67%
639. Part Two 30.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.7M/58th/65%
There's no evidence that there was any big ratings drop when Colin took over, or that the ratings would have been much better if Peter had stayed.
The violence would also have been an issue whether Peter or Colin was the Doctor, as the violence was introduced into the scripts by Eric Saward in particular (and apparently approved of by JNT).
Sorry I misinterpreted your post but i still don't think it would have happened. As i said previously, Davison was not a violent Doctor and I believe a lot of it introduced in Season 22 was a direct result of a more physical and tougher incarnation. Grade would have had far less leverage to take the show off air because of that and his personal vendetta against Colin Baker.
Having been one of those fans who is a veteran of the Longleat 20th Anniversary event, the turn out for that in 1983 alone solidified both the popularity of the show and of PDs portrayal of the Doctor. Nope, if PD had stayed, Doctor Who MAY have survived a while longer and MAY not have resulted in some more rash and knee jerk decisions re casting for both actors and writers!
I HATE you Pip n Jane:mad::mad:
You say Doctor Who MAY - you acknowledge that you don't know for sure that it would have survived if Colin hadn't got the part.
What we DO know is that Grade didn't like the programme and never had (Colin Baker mentioned on The Story of Doctor Who that he was always on record as disliking the programme before he became controller of BBC One, hence why it was no surprise when he took it off almost immediately after arriving at the BBC).
Michael Grade said in a Radio Times interview this year that he never admired the programme and it left him cold.
Sorry I misinterpreted your post but i still don't think it would have happened. As i said previously, Davison was not a violent Doctor and I believe a lot of it introduced in Season 22 was a direct result of a more physical and tougher incarnation. Grade would have had far less leverage to take the show off air because of that and his personal vendetta against Colin Baker.
I do agree that Colin Baker's rather less pleasant version of the Doctor in Season 22 probably encouraged Grade to take the show off straight away, but I still believe all the evidence suggests that Grade would have done everything he could to get rid of Doctor Who anyway (he has always said he thought its production values were an embarrassment).
I don't believe the personal vendetta stuff about Colin Baker BTW. I don't think Colin ever suggested this either, has he?
I do agree that Colin Baker's rather less pleasant version of the Doctor in Season 22 probably encouraged Grade to take the show off straight away, but I still believe all the evidence suggests that Grade would have done everything he could to get rid of Doctor Who anyway (he has always said he thought its production values were an embarrassment).
I don't believe the personal vendetta stuff about Colin Baker BTW. I don't think Colin ever suggested this either, has he?
I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree on that because I think Davison's popularity would have kept the show going, just a personal viewpoint.
As for the vendetta, I believe I've linked this website before, so have a looksie for yourself and see what you think.
I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree on that because I think Davison's popularity would have kept the show going, just a personal viewpoint.
Davison's popularity with whom? The fans or the general public?
Like I said, the ratings were on the same level for Peter's last season and Colin's first, so there's no evidence Peter was actually more popular in the part, as ratings is all Grade (or any other controller) had to go by to ascertain the popularity of a programme.
Davison's popularity with whom? The fans or the general public?
Like I said, the ratings were on the same level for Peter's last season and Colin's first, so there's no evidence Peter was actually more popular in the part, as ratings is all Grade (or any other controller) had to go by to ascertain the popularity of a programme.
Both in my opinion. Davison in the 80's was a huge personality. He was doing 2 other programmes, and adverts as as well as Doctor Who and I think it was commented on that he never seemed to be of the box. Add into that the fan following he brought with him from All Creatures Great and Small in and I think he was reasonably popular.
Yes there were very little difference between ratings in Seasons 21 and 22 but the appreciation index thingy they used to gather opinion at the beeb showed it dropped sharply after Colin Baker took over, which is understandable after his interpretation in The Twin Dilemma.
The ratings for me were never an issue for it's axing. As the show lost 2-3 million figures upon it's return in Season 23, it did more harm than good suspending the show.
Both in my opinion. Davison in the 80's was a huge personality. He was doing 2 other programmes, and adverts as as well as Doctor Who and I think it was commented on that he never seemed to be of the box. Add into that the fan following he brought with him from All Creatures Great and Small in and I think he was reasonably popular.
Yes there were very little difference between ratings in Seasons 21 and 22 but the appreciation index thingy they used to gather opinion at the beeb showed it dropped sharply after Colin Baker took over, which is understandable after his interpretation in The Twin Dilemma.
The ratings for me were never an issue for it's axing. As the show lost 2-3 million figures upon it;s return in Season 23, it did more harm than good suspending the show.
I agree with most of this, but I still don't think you can ever underestimate how much contempt Grade always had for the show.
He didn't like it in the '60s, the '70s or the '80s. He actually said in the Radio Times that he admires the New Who for its production values and NEVER admired it before.
I don't believe he took it off air in 1985 because of a personal vendetta against Colin Baker (although that could have been the reason he fired him in 1986 - though that might be just as easily be because he simply hated his performance in the role TBH).
I'm sure that given the same set of circumstances (financial savings to be made, ratings, scheduling etc.) Grade would have taken the show off in 1985 whoever the Doctor was.
There's no doubt he was taken aback by the press campaign to save Doctor Who when he did take it off and he badly underestimated the loyalty of the programme's fanbase. That's why he felt obliged to bring it back - reluctantly - in 1986, so the cancellation became a "hiatus". Otherwise he would never have brought it back.
I agree with most of this, but I still don't think you can ever underestimate how much contempt Grade always had for the show.
He didn't like it in the '60s, the '70s or the '80s. He actually said in the Radio Times that he admires the New Who for its production values and NEVER admired it before.
I don't believe he took it off air in 1985 because of a personal vendetta against Colin Baker (although that could have been the reason he fired him in 1986 - though that might be just as easily be because he simply hated his performance in the role TBH).
I'm sure that given the same set of circumstances (financial savings to be made, ratings, scheduling etc.) Grade would have taken the show off in 1985 whoever the Doctor was.
There's no doubt he was taken aback by the press campaign to save Doctor Who when he did take it off and he badly underestimated the loyalty of the programme's fanbase. That's why he felt obliged to bring it back - reluctantly - in 1986, so the cancellation became a "hiatus". Otherwise he would never have brought it back.
What I forgot to mention also was that there were signs of Season 22 as far as the continuity side of things went as part of which i think Davison quit the show. I remember reading he and JNT had had a disagreement over the way the show was heading at that time so Davison decided to quit, though typecasting was probably his greater concern.
My reasoning for mentioning this was that maybe he saw things coming with the show and he was probably glad he got out when he did.
Whether the axing would have happened with him in is something we will never know for definite. Yes, you were right Grade had always hated the show even before he took over his job at the BBC, but I think it would have been a lot more difficult for him with Davison in the role because of the reasons I stated above. As I've said countless times on this subject everything was handed to him on a plate. New and unpopular Doctor, Violent overload in the show itself and a lead actor he hated. That's why I think having Davison there would have made his job a lot harder. He may well have still taken the show off air but he would have had to have worked a lot harder to find reasons to do that. He couldn't just take the show of air because he didn't like it when the ratings were so good. With Season 22 everything was there for him to take that decision and made life a lot easier for him.
I agree with most of this, but I still don't think you can ever underestimate how much contempt Grade always had for the show.
He didn't like it in the '60s, the '70s or the '80s. He actually said in the Radio Times that he admires the New Who for its production values and NEVER admired it before.
I don't believe he took it off air in 1985 because of a personal vendetta against Colin Baker (although that could have been the reason he fired him in 1986 - though that might be just as easily be because he simply hated his performance in the role TBH).
I'm sure that given the same set of circumstances (financial savings to be made, ratings, scheduling etc.) Grade would have taken the show off in 1985 whoever the Doctor was.
There's no doubt he was taken aback by the press campaign to save Doctor Who when he did take it off and he badly underestimated the loyalty of the programme's fanbase. That's why he felt obliged to bring it back - reluctantly - in 1986, so the cancellation became a "hiatus". Otherwise he would never have brought it back.
If Grade had been controller in the 70's, would he have axed the show when Tom Baker was in it? Doubt it, as it had huge viewing figures. The show had lost popularity in the 80s and had looked tired. Grade was no fan of the show but he would know that if the ratings had been higher, then he wouldnt have axed it. I liked Colin as the Doctor but alot of people didnt, hence why it had lost viewers. When McCoy took over, it was the beginning of the end, as the show was shown opposite Coronation Street.
Isn't there another thread entirely discussing the Grade/JNT/Baker/Whoever fault for the axing?
This has just been totally hijacked.
Unfortunately with any thread on Colin Baker it does often lead back to the axing etc. It's just such a hot topic even after all these years that it's hard not to talk about it. His Era really was one of the most controversial in the show's history so Michael Grade and all that will invariably crop up when discussing him.
Isn't there another thread entirely discussing the Grade/JNT/Baker/Whoever fault for the axing?
This has just been totally hijacked.
Its not been hijacked!:)
The thread title was deliberately ambiguous to attract ALL discussions on the reasons why Colin is no longer on our screens. His tenure on DW was quite possibly one of the key reasons why this is the case!
What I forgot to mention also was that there were signs of Season 22 as far as the continuity side of things went as part of which i think Davison quit the show. I remember reading he and JNT had had a disagreement over the way the show was heading at that time so Davison decided to quit, though typecasting was probably his greater concern.
My reasoning for mentioning this was that maybe he saw things coming with the show and he was probably glad he got out when he did.
Yes, I imagine Peter Davison looks back at his decision to leave and can't believe his luck that he managed to get out of Doctor Who just before things turned nasty.
If Grade had been controller in the 70's, would he have axed the show when Tom Baker was in it? Doubt it, as it had huge viewing figures.
No, you're right. Although if he had been controller as far back as 1969 he would probably have taken it off then. I seem to recall the show's future was in the balance at that point but someone had the foresight to see there was stil potential in it.
The show had lost popularity in the 80s and had looked tired. Grade was no fan of the show but he would know that if the ratings had been higher, then he wouldnt have axed it. I liked Colin as the Doctor but alot of people didnt, hence why it had lost viewers. When McCoy took over, it was the beginning of the end, as the show was shown opposite Coronation Street.
The last great ratings for classic series Doctor Who were actually for Peter Davison's first season. After that they dropped a bit, but remained steady. As I mentioned before, it's a bit of a myth that ratings went through the floor when Colin Baker took over - they actually didn't change much at all (although, as Davey mentioned, audience appreciation figures went down).
The major loss of viewers came when Grade put it on hiatus in 1985 and brought it back in 1986. Ratings never recovered after that. Then it was put against Corrie and the writing was on the wall. So it is fair to say that Grade, more than anyone else, killed Doctor Who.
Every one of these types of threads are IMO threads, didn't think I needed to point that out!
Sorry, your post just seemed a bit angry and that's why I responded with what I said.
We're all entitled to our opinions and there's no reason things can't be said in a civilsed way. Nothing we say will change what happened in the past anway.
By the way, I don't mind Pip and Jane Baker. I didn't think they were so bad. The Mark of the Rani is one of the best Colin Baker stories IMHO.
I've been listening to some of the early Big Finish productions again recently, & listening to just the performances between Baker/Davison/McCoy - I've been quite surprised that Colin's are by far the most enjoyable. Of the three of them Peter was the one I enjoyed the most on screen, but Colin's melodramatic doctor translates best to being listened to imo.
I've been listening to some of the early Big Finish productions again recently, & listening to just the performances between Baker/Davison/McCoy - I've been quite surprised that Colin's are by far the most enjoyable. Of the three of them Peter was the one I enjoyed the most on screen, but Colin's melodramatic doctor translates best to being listened to imo.
I think a lot of people have re-evaluated Colin as an actor and as a Doctor since hearing the Big Finish audios.
I think a lot of people have re-evaluated Colin as an actor and as a Doctor since hearing the Big Finish audios.
I've just been watching one of my old Stranger videos with him and Nicola Bryant him. The production values may not be quite as good as they were in Doctor Who but his acting is as good as anything he did in the show, if not better.
Sorry, your post just seemed a bit angry and that's why I responded with what I said.
We're all entitled to our opinions and there's no reason things can't be said in a civilsed way. Nothing we say will change what happened in the past anway.
By the way, I don't mind Pip and Jane Baker. I didn't think they were so bad. The Mark of the Rani is one of the best Colin Baker stories IMHO.
I tend to get right to the point with my posts, other members have commented that I am always angry but I'm really not, its just the way I post!:)
I agree that Mark of the Rani isn't awful (compared to Time and the Rani) but the Rani has always grated with me as being one of the weakest Who villians.
I'm afraid I stand by my opinion that Pip n Jane were the spawn of the Devil!:D
I tend to get right to the point with my posts, other members have commented that I am always angry but I'm really not, its just the way I post!:)
I agree that Mark of the Rani isn't awful (compared to Time and the Rani) but the Rani has always grated with me as being one of the weakest Who villians.
I'm afraid I stand by my opinion that Pip n Jane were the spawn of the Devil!:D
For what its worth, DoctorQui, (which is "very little" I'm afraid) I don't think of you as an angry poster. With you I think of a friendly smile behind the exclamation marks and HATE vibes. Don't know why. I think "excited fan" rather than "frothing loon". I'm sure this must be an enormous comfort to you. not.
For what its worth, DoctorQui, (which is "very little" I'm afraid) I don't think of you as an angry poster. With you I think of a friendly smile behind the exclamation marks and HATE vibes. Don't know why. I think "excited fan" rather than "frothing loon". I'm sure this must be an enormous comfort to you. not.
If Peter Davison had done season 22, is there any evidence he wouldn't have been stuck with Attack of the Cybermen and Timelash? It still would have been a problematic season.
Pip n' Jane were there purely as they could construct workable scripts quickly and efficiently. In The Ultimate Foe & Time and the Rani's case it really didn't matter that they were rubbish, they needed something to film immediately.
Comments
Couldn't disagree more!
Having been one of those fans who is a veteran of the Longleat 20th Anniversary event, the turn out for that in 1983 alone solidified both the popularity of the show and of PDs portrayal of the Doctor. Nope, if PD had stayed, Doctor Who MAY have survived a while longer and MAY not have resulted in some more rash and knee jerk decisions re casting for both actors and writers!
I HATE you Pip n Jane:mad::mad:
I was saying that if Davison had stayed for Season 22, I still believe Grade would have taken the show off.
You are absolutely spot-on that the ratings for Davison's first season were far better than Tom Baker's last, but Davison's second and third seasons did not have such good ratings again.
If you look at the ratings for Season 21 and Season 22, there really isn't a lot of difference:
Season 21
603. Part One Thu 05.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.6M/51st/65%
604. Part Two Fri 06.04.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.5M/52nd/64%
605. Part Three 12.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.3M/74th/62%
606. Part Four 13.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6M/87th/65%
607. Part One 19.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.9M/61st/65%
608. Part Two 20.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6M/84th/63%
609. Part One 26.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 8.0M/ 58th/66%
610. Part Two 27.01.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 5.8M/115th/69%
611. Part Three 02.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8M/ 59th/65%
612. Part Four 03.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 5.6M/112th/65%
613. Part One Wed 08.02.84 6.50pm - 7.35pm 7.31M/73rd/69%
614. Part Two 15.02.84 6.50pm - 7.40pm ~ 7.95M/53rd/65%
615. Part One Thu 23.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/ 71st
616. Part Two Fri 24.02.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.1M/102nd
617. Part Three 01.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/ 67th
618. Part Four 02.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.0M/ 74th
619. Part One 08.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.9 M/66th/65%
620. Part Two 09.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.6 M/75th/---
621. Part Three 15.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8 M/62nd/---
622. Part Four 16.03.1984 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.8 M/62nd/68%
623. Part One 22.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.6M/66th/61%
624. Part Two 23.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.4M/71st/66%
625. Part Three 29.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 7.0M/69th/59%
626. Part Four 30.03.84 6.40pm - 7.05pm 6.3M/81st/67%
Season 22
627. Part One Sat 05.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 8.9M/ 71st/61%
628. Part Two 12.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.2M/104th/65%
629. Part One 19.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.2M/110th/63%
630. Part Two 26.01.1985 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.0M/108th/65%
631. Part One 02.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.8M/111th/64%
632. Part Two 09.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.3M/ 84th/64%
633. Part One 16.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.6M/92nd/65%
634. Part Two 23.02.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.0M/90th/62%
635. Part Three 02.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.9M/66th/65%
636. Part One 09.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 6.7M/69th/66%
637. Part Two 16.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.4M/79th/64%
638. Part One 23.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.4M/65th/67%
639. Part Two 30.03.85 5.20pm - 6.05pm 7.7M/58th/65%
There's no evidence that there was any big ratings drop when Colin took over, or that the ratings would have been much better if Peter had stayed.
The violence would also have been an issue whether Peter or Colin was the Doctor, as the violence was introduced into the scripts by Eric Saward in particular (and apparently approved of by JNT).
Grade claimed that ratings and violence were the principal reasons for taking it off at the time, as well as a lack of imagination and wit in the stories (in his opinion).
Sorry I misinterpreted your post but i still don't think it would have happened. As i said previously, Davison was not a violent Doctor and I believe a lot of it introduced in Season 22 was a direct result of a more physical and tougher incarnation. Grade would have had far less leverage to take the show off air because of that and his personal vendetta against Colin Baker.
You say Doctor Who MAY - you acknowledge that you don't know for sure that it would have survived if Colin hadn't got the part.
What we DO know is that Grade didn't like the programme and never had (Colin Baker mentioned on The Story of Doctor Who that he was always on record as disliking the programme before he became controller of BBC One, hence why it was no surprise when he took it off almost immediately after arriving at the BBC).
Michael Grade said in a Radio Times interview this year that he never admired the programme and it left him cold.
I do agree that Colin Baker's rather less pleasant version of the Doctor in Season 22 probably encouraged Grade to take the show off straight away, but I still believe all the evidence suggests that Grade would have done everything he could to get rid of Doctor Who anyway (he has always said he thought its production values were an embarrassment).
I don't believe the personal vendetta stuff about Colin Baker BTW. I don't think Colin ever suggested this either, has he?
I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree on that because I think Davison's popularity would have kept the show going, just a personal viewpoint.
As for the vendetta, I believe I've linked this website before, so have a looksie for yourself and see what you think.
http://webspace.webring.com/people/wk/kyronmallett/OverviewNF.htm
Davison's popularity with whom? The fans or the general public?
Like I said, the ratings were on the same level for Peter's last season and Colin's first, so there's no evidence Peter was actually more popular in the part, as ratings is all Grade (or any other controller) had to go by to ascertain the popularity of a programme.
Both in my opinion. Davison in the 80's was a huge personality. He was doing 2 other programmes, and adverts as as well as Doctor Who and I think it was commented on that he never seemed to be of the box. Add into that the fan following he brought with him from All Creatures Great and Small in and I think he was reasonably popular.
Yes there were very little difference between ratings in Seasons 21 and 22 but the appreciation index thingy they used to gather opinion at the beeb showed it dropped sharply after Colin Baker took over, which is understandable after his interpretation in The Twin Dilemma.
The ratings for me were never an issue for it's axing. As the show lost 2-3 million figures upon it's return in Season 23, it did more harm than good suspending the show.
I agree with most of this, but I still don't think you can ever underestimate how much contempt Grade always had for the show.
He didn't like it in the '60s, the '70s or the '80s. He actually said in the Radio Times that he admires the New Who for its production values and NEVER admired it before.
I don't believe he took it off air in 1985 because of a personal vendetta against Colin Baker (although that could have been the reason he fired him in 1986 - though that might be just as easily be because he simply hated his performance in the role TBH).
I'm sure that given the same set of circumstances (financial savings to be made, ratings, scheduling etc.) Grade would have taken the show off in 1985 whoever the Doctor was.
There's no doubt he was taken aback by the press campaign to save Doctor Who when he did take it off and he badly underestimated the loyalty of the programme's fanbase. That's why he felt obliged to bring it back - reluctantly - in 1986, so the cancellation became a "hiatus". Otherwise he would never have brought it back.
What I forgot to mention also was that there were signs of Season 22 as far as the continuity side of things went as part of which i think Davison quit the show. I remember reading he and JNT had had a disagreement over the way the show was heading at that time so Davison decided to quit, though typecasting was probably his greater concern.
My reasoning for mentioning this was that maybe he saw things coming with the show and he was probably glad he got out when he did.
Whether the axing would have happened with him in is something we will never know for definite. Yes, you were right Grade had always hated the show even before he took over his job at the BBC, but I think it would have been a lot more difficult for him with Davison in the role because of the reasons I stated above. As I've said countless times on this subject everything was handed to him on a plate. New and unpopular Doctor, Violent overload in the show itself and a lead actor he hated. That's why I think having Davison there would have made his job a lot harder. He may well have still taken the show off air but he would have had to have worked a lot harder to find reasons to do that. He couldn't just take the show of air because he didn't like it when the ratings were so good. With Season 22 everything was there for him to take that decision and made life a lot easier for him.
That's how I see it anyway.
Of course not, is this not always a given
Every one of these types of threads are IMO threads, didn't think I needed to point that out!
This has just been totally hijacked.
Unfortunately with any thread on Colin Baker it does often lead back to the axing etc. It's just such a hot topic even after all these years that it's hard not to talk about it. His Era really was one of the most controversial in the show's history so Michael Grade and all that will invariably crop up when discussing him.
Its not been hijacked!:)
The thread title was deliberately ambiguous to attract ALL discussions on the reasons why Colin is no longer on our screens. His tenure on DW was quite possibly one of the key reasons why this is the case!
Yes, I imagine Peter Davison looks back at his decision to leave and can't believe his luck that he managed to get out of Doctor Who just before things turned nasty.
No, you're right. Although if he had been controller as far back as 1969 he would probably have taken it off then. I seem to recall the show's future was in the balance at that point but someone had the foresight to see there was stil potential in it.
The last great ratings for classic series Doctor Who were actually for Peter Davison's first season. After that they dropped a bit, but remained steady. As I mentioned before, it's a bit of a myth that ratings went through the floor when Colin Baker took over - they actually didn't change much at all (although, as Davey mentioned, audience appreciation figures went down).
The major loss of viewers came when Grade put it on hiatus in 1985 and brought it back in 1986. Ratings never recovered after that. Then it was put against Corrie and the writing was on the wall. So it is fair to say that Grade, more than anyone else, killed Doctor Who.
Sorry, your post just seemed a bit angry and that's why I responded with what I said.
We're all entitled to our opinions and there's no reason things can't be said in a civilsed way. Nothing we say will change what happened in the past anway.
By the way, I don't mind Pip and Jane Baker. I didn't think they were so bad. The Mark of the Rani is one of the best Colin Baker stories IMHO.
I think a lot of people have re-evaluated Colin as an actor and as a Doctor since hearing the Big Finish audios.
I've just been watching one of my old Stranger videos with him and Nicola Bryant him. The production values may not be quite as good as they were in Doctor Who but his acting is as good as anything he did in the show, if not better.
(And NB still looked hot as well...)
I tend to get right to the point with my posts, other members have commented that I am always angry but I'm really not, its just the way I post!:)
I agree that Mark of the Rani isn't awful (compared to Time and the Rani) but the Rani has always grated with me as being one of the weakest Who villians.
I'm afraid I stand by my opinion that Pip n Jane were the spawn of the Devil!:D
For what its worth, DoctorQui, (which is "very little" I'm afraid) I don't think of you as an angry poster. With you I think of a friendly smile behind the exclamation marks and HATE vibes. Don't know why. I think "excited fan" rather than "frothing loon". I'm sure this must be an enormous comfort to you. not.
More than you think;)
Pip n' Jane were there purely as they could construct workable scripts quickly and efficiently. In The Ultimate Foe & Time and the Rani's case it really didn't matter that they were rubbish, they needed something to film immediately.